I think what Simple_Person is trying to say is that you should treat each person on a case by case basis. One can firmly state the Ahmadiyaah movement is unislamic and challenge any/all innovations made by this group, but also not disparage the people who claim to follow it if we don't see them doing something unislamic. It could be that a person identifies as Ahmadiyaah because of family/tradition, but has never done anything that goes against the Quran or sunnah. I have an acquaintance whose family is Ahmadiyaah, but as far as I know I've never seen him do something that sunnis would disapprove of. I guess one could say he's an Ahmadiyaah in name only but his actions are that of a sunni (as far as I know).
Like shias that I've talked to, who brought up the subject of sects, I make it clear that I don't place muslims into sub categories. If a person says they're muslim then I consider them muslim. If I were to see them do something that isn't in accordance with the quran or sunnah but hear them claim that it is in accordance, I would question/discuss the matter with them. Ask them what their justification for doing said acts are. Though this never happened, I'm speaking hypothetically as eventhough I met people who said they're from different sects I've never seen them do anything "different."
ALHAMDULILLAH, this really brings joy to my heart that somebody understands my point of view.
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
brother as a potentially new muslim it is important that you understand the correct branding of such groups like ahmadiyyahs; contrary to what my brother simple-person says [ i think he is a new muslim too hence is more liberal minded] it is important to brand them as non-muslims; scholars even go as far as to say if we do not brand kufr [desbelief] as desbelief then we ourselves become kaafir hence there has to be a clear cut recognition and acknowledgement of non-muslims when we get to know of them!
Ahmadiyaahs are kaafirs brother and you should shout it out from the top of your lungs!!!! [metaphorically ofcourse as you dont want to disturb your neighbours with shouts! ]
Brother i am not a "liberal" Muslim although i am a new Muslim compared to many brothers and sisters here. However i try to find different perspectives, without going in to innovation or crossing the lines of Islam. This perspective of mine i can even backup with a solid argument.
As brother
@Bosanac
said handle each person individually to their own case. Among other people there are Muslims, they TRULY believe in Allah and Islam, however for fear of their lives for example some refrain saying they are Muslims and practice out in the open. In case of the Yazidi's for example, i dare to say that it is even a mercy of Allah for the ones among them that have acknowledged that the religion of their ancestors is a false religion and Islam is the true religion. And thus Allah made their community go all around. In other words many have gone abroad and the ones among them finally can come out in the open saying they are Muslims without fear for their lives. So could i have said to this individual that in his heart believed in Allah and His messenger? You are a kafir? Or not even with words, but with my own heart saying he is a kafir, while his heart already had accepted Islam? Absolutely not. This perspective that i try to adopt, makes me go easy on people and get rid of judgement of people. All what is left is judgement according to my fitrah(human nature) or in other words see action(s) that i despise and judge those actions as wrong.
Among sunni Muslims there are munafiq(hypocrites), however we do not know which are the hypocrites. The question is a hypocrite a Muslim? Absolutely not as we all know. However it is not known to us, so we refrain from branding somebody a hypocrite. Some hypocrites are clear as all their actions show actions of for example a person who goes against Islamic teachings. Some are so hidden, we cannot see they are hypocrites, yet they are STILL hypocrites. So also among other people being other sects of Islam or Christians, or Hindu's or whatever, there might exist Muslims. That is why i now a days see not Muslims, Christians, Jews..you name it. All i see are
Honest people and dishonest people. The honest people for sure Allah will guide them if the truth is shown to them as i have faith in my Rab that He will save those servants of His. This will be even as clear as day light who are the honest and who are dishonest people with the arrival of dajjal.
So there is more to this than what meets the eye and i hope that what i have said here, can give you something to ponder about and try to see from my perspective. I do want you to give feedback on this perspective as right now i have no argument against this perspective, but love to have criticism against this argument so i can "tweak" it to some extend or even abolish it completely if it is wrong.
almost all scholars of the ummah are unanimously agreed upon Qadiyanis being kafir. So finding any leeway of unity with this group is not possible.
Read my comment above ^ ..if you still don't understand what i am trying to say. Understanding comes from Allah OR possibly i just lack the right words to convey the message to you to understand. So in either of the two cases, i leave it like that.
Thank you so much. I was approached by a member of the group on another social media outlet. He gave me a website to look over. I knew right away that it (their beliefs) was contrary to what I had been studying. I honestly did feel uncomfortable with the little I read on the groups site. Thank you all for helping me validate those feelings.
beware of those Ahmadiyahs bro, they're out to specially get vulnerable new muslims trying to prey on their lack of knowledge about Islam!
They follow a false Mahdi but they claim to be Muslim. I am not sure if we must call them kaafir..in either case they are on a wrong path
The Nation of Islam also call themselves Muslims. Just because someone calls themselves Muslim doesn't mean they are so. Islam is based on correct aqeedah and if one's aqeedah is corrupted, putting them outside of the pale of Islam, then that is where they are.
If we call someone kaafir, and Allah grants that person eternal salvation, how then do we justify ourselves in front of Allah, by making wrong judgements? Is it safer not to make these judgements about others?
The Nation of Islam also call themselves Muslims. Just because someone calls themselves Muslim doesn't mean they are so. Islam is based on correct aqeedah and if one's aqeedah is corrupted, putting them outside of the pale of Islam, then that is where they are.
So can we say the members of the Nation of Islam are kaafir? Of course a self identification doesn make anyone a Muslim or anything but what is our criteria? I have also questions regarding this term "outside of the pale of Islam" or as most commonly used for the Shia as "outside of the fold of Islam". Does it mean the Shi'i understanding is not Islam and/or the shias are kaafir? Or as in Ahmadiyyah example, does believing in a false Mahdi/Masih make someone a kaafir? These are all questions in my mind which yet have an answer. I believe anyone who proclaims Shahada and does not contradict it can be considered Muslim. Allah knows best.
If we call someone kaafir, and Allah grants that person eternal salvation, how then do we justify ourselves in front of Allah, by making wrong judgements? Is it safer not to make these judgements about others?
In the spirit of praying to 'One God'
Eric
Yes there is a hadith which says not to call a Muslim kaafir since if they are one this makes you a kaafir. But we have some criterias in Islam which helps us to determine whether someone is a believer or not. If the disbelief is obvious based on these criterias then it is safe to call some a kaafir.
Read my comment above ^ ..if you still don't understand what i am trying to say. Understanding comes from Allah OR possibly i just lack the right words to convey the message to you to understand. So in either of the two cases, i leave it like that.
[quote]Well they being kafir or not kafir, there is a better approach to this right now as Muslims are not even united[/quoted] qadiyanis are kafir, moreover, unity , indeed, is needed within ummah but qadiyanis aren't the part of this ummah
qadiyanis are kafir, moreover, unity , indeed, is needed within ummah but qadiyanis aren't the part of this ummah
Unity can be understood and also applied on different levels. There is unity among Muslims, there is also unity among people who in general believe in a Creator. Even among sects especially in the west Muslims can seek unity among each other based on common grounds. Even though for example some clearly brand certain sects of Islam as kafir or not kafir what ever it may be, those same sects might agree on some grounds with certain things. For example being against LGBT-agenda. All the sects of Islam can find common ground + Judaism and all of its sects that are also against it + Christianity and all of its sects that are also against it. This common ground can be unity among people in general. The differences belong to the Day of Judgement, however the common things are on this world applied.
Who is our common enemy? Sheytan it is as Allah again and again reminds us that he is a CLEAR enemy to us. So based on certain common ground we can seek unity. However we Muslims often have become so extreme, just because they follow a deviation we do not want to work with them WHATSOEVER. This is foolishness. Our 2 cents and their 2 cents makes it 4 cents to fight this common goal. With 4 cents we can achieve more than each trying their approach with their measly 2 cents so to say.
So can we say the members of the Nation of Islam are kaafir? Of course a self identification doesn make anyone a Muslim or anything but what is our criteria? I have also questions regarding this term "outside of the pale of Islam" or as most commonly used for the Shia as "outside of the fold of Islam". Does it mean the Shi'i understanding is not Islam and/or the shias are kaafir? Or as in Ahmadiyyah example, does believing in a false Mahdi/Masih make someone a kaafir? These are all questions in my mind which yet have an answer. I believe anyone who proclaims Shahada and does not contradict it can be considered Muslim. Allah knows best.
I do understand where you are coming from bro. The shahada is not a magic pill, it's a testimony that comes with conditions. If one fails to fulfill those conditions then their shahada is meaningless. The shahada has two parts to it. One is that you bear witness to Oneness of Allah with no partners. Second is that you bear witness to the Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah and the Last Prophet of Allah. So after this if you worship any other deity then your sahahda is nullified. By the same token if you believe someone as claiming to be a prophet then you nullify your shahada.
The NOI believe in Elijah Muhammad, a black old man taught about Islam from a white guy, to be their prophet. They are not Muslims.
Ahamdiyyah claim Mirza Ghulam is their prophet. They are not Muslims.
Regarding shia. There are sects among them that are so far gone that they are not Muslims and there are sects that are more close to Sunni Islam. But as a general consensus we know where various groups stand in their aqeedah in relation to orthodox islam.
I do understand where you are coming from bro. The shahada is not a magic pill, it's a testimony that comes with conditions. If one fails to fulfill those conditions then their shahada is meaningless. The shahada has two parts to it. One is that you bear witness to Oneness of Allah with no partners. Second is that you bear witness to the Muhammad as the Messenger of Allah and the Last Prophet of Allah. So after this if you worship any other deity then your sahahda is nullified. By the same token if you believe someone as claiming to be a prophet then you nullify your shahada.
The NOI believe in Elijah Muhammad, a black old man taught about Islam from a white guy, to be their prophet. They are not Muslims.
Ahamdiyyah claim Mirza Ghulam is their prophet. They are not Muslims.
Regarding shia. There are sects among them that are so far gone that they are not Muslims and there are sects that are more close to Sunni Islam. But as a general consensus we know where various groups stand in their aqeedah in relation to orthodox islam.
Salam my friend. Yes it is written in Quran that Muhammed aleyhissalam is the seal of the prophets but this expression does not have a place in Shahada. Shahada requires to proclaim the serventness and prophethood of Muhammed aleyhissalam not the finalhood. There are several hadiths which makes it clear that anybody who confess Shahada will enter Jannah. It seems exactly a magic pill. So I regard these people as Muslim.
PS: My consideration applies to the members who naively follow these paths. The ones who invent lies are pure kafir.
Unity can be understood and also applied on different levels. There is unity among Muslims, there is also unity among people who in general believe in a Creator. Even among sects especially in the west Muslims can seek unity among each other based on common grounds. Even though for example some clearly brand certain sects of Islam as kafir or not kafir what ever it may be, those same sects might agree on some grounds with certain things. For example being against LGBT-agenda. All the sects of Islam can find common ground + Judaism and all of its sects that are also against it + Christianity and all of its sects that are also against it. This common ground can be unity among people in general. The differences belong to the Day of Judgement, however the common things are on this world applied.Who is our common enemy? Sheytan it is as Allah again and again reminds us that he is a CLEAR enemy to us. So based on certain common ground we can seek unity. However we Muslims often have become so extreme, just because they follow a deviation we do not want to work with them WHATSOEVER. This is foolishness. Our 2 cents and their 2 cents makes it 4 cents to fight this common goal. With 4 cents we can achieve more than each trying their approach with their measly 2 cents so to say.
this is merely a social issue and we can join them on such issues.
this is merely a social issue and we can join them on such issues.
Yes, but i never have said we should join them on religious issues as it is clear as day light, follow Qur'an and authentic ahadith. But no need to brand the people who say they are ahamdiya Muslims as kafir. Rather say Ahamadiya movement does not apply follow Qur'an and authentic ahadith. Some people who follow Ahamdiya movement out of arrogance, some out of pride, some truly believe it, some don't but, just by name follow it. yet we don't know which one is the arrogant one, which one is the one who truly believes it and which one is the one does not believe in it, rather the Qur'an and authentic ahadith.
Yes, but i never have said we should join them on religious issues as it is clear as day light, follow Qur'an and authentic ahadith. But no need to brand the people who say they are ahamdiya Muslims as kafir. Rather say Ahamadiya movement does not apply follow Qur'an and authentic ahadith. Some people who follow Ahamdiya movement out of arrogance, some out of pride, some truly believe it, some don't but, just by name follow it. yet we don't know which one is the arrogant one, which one is the one who truly believes it and which one is the one does not believe in it, rather the Qur'an and authentic ahadith.
I reiterate that they are kafir. Their religion is different from us. I don't know why you have soft corner for them..?
[FONT=times new roman]You are not welcome to mislead Muslims here. As a long-time member, you should be aware that is against the forum rules. Along with the Ahmadiyya, The Nation of Islam is based on an ideology from a dajjal.
Salam bro. I dont think his intention is to mislead Muslims. He gives his own opinion.
Anyone who believes or accepts any guidance other than that which was brought by Muhammad from Allah , is certainly not a Muslim. The Ahmadiyya fall under this category, and they are not Muslims.
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Yes, but i never have said we should join them on religious issues as it is clear as day light, follow Qur'an and authentic ahadith. But no need to brand the people who say they are ahamdiya Muslims as kafir. Rather say Ahamadiya movement does not apply follow Qur'an and authentic ahadith. Some people who follow Ahamdiya movement out of arrogance, some out of pride, some truly believe it, some don't but, just by name follow it. yet we don't know which one is the arrogant one, which one is the one who truly believes it and which one is the one does not believe in it, rather the Qur'an and authentic ahadith.
There is a difference between calling a particular individual Kafir and calling a whole movement or cult as Kufr. We are saying Ahmadiyya movement is Kufr, it is not Islam. Anyone who associates himself with them is not Muslim. As for branding individual persons, we don't call them individually as Kafir because we don't know whether a person believes in its falsehood or not. Once again, in general, Ahmadiyya is not Islam and those who associate with them are not Muslims.
Enough has been said on this thread and we do not have re-iterate the same again and again. I don't see any reason to keep this thread open anymore.
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as the Messenger of Allah and the Last Prophet of Allah. So after this if you worship any other deity then your sahahda is nullified. By the same token if you believe someone as claiming to be a prophet then you nullify your shahada.
from Allah
, is certainly not a Muslim. The Ahmadiyya fall under this category, and they are not Muslims.
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