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    apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you? (OP)


    It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.

    Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.

    So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?

    I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.

    Thanks!
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Report bad ads?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
    Say what?

    Bro, chill. the guy has run off... they always do!
    Do you know what antimatter is? If not, find out.
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Lmao if apostates were killed then why is islam growing so fast?

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    If muslims didn’t have freedom then why are non Muslims converting out of free will in countries of the west?
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    The stats speak for themselves this question is almost irrelevant

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Atheists have killed people for not believing in socialism and Godlessness. The "red terror" has killed millions and millions of people for believing in God and private property and freedom to trade i.e. capitalism. The apostates of Islam who get into trouble are hostile to the religion. Muslims are free to leave their homeland and live with infidels and abandon their religion, but if they attack Islam it stands to reason that they are courting trouble.
    3 | Likes air, happymuslim, Al Sultan liked this post

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    Do you know what antimatter is? If not, find out.
    Don't matter (see what I did there?)
    apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?


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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    As Salamu Alaykum
    to be fair the Majority of Muslim Countries do not kill or give capital punishment or give the death penalty for apostasy or stone people for sex outside of marriage or ban or outlaw the drinking of alcohol or punish or lash for zina if made public I'm not saying any of these sins are good I'm just making a point that most people who hate Islam or Muslims mostly in the West always talk about their fear of Sharia Law which is silly because there is no Caliphate a Caliph Caliphs today Empire all you you have in the Muslim World are Nation States most have a mix of Secular Laws and Sharia Courts which deal with personal matters mostly the Muslim Countries that really give the death penalty for apostasy are Saudi Arabia Iran and the Sudan and some of the Gulf States only a Minority of Muslim Nations stone or kill give death for apostasy I remember my memory it is still on my mind my memory I did not forget him I remember a Muslim told me years ago before I converted to Islam people can leave Islam you can stop praying fasting or going to a mosque or a masjid in a Islamic State if you keep it private same with any sin who is going to know I seen Muslims even go to Christian Churches or Jewish Synagogues to debate not convert but in Islam as far as I know you won't be forced to go or lashed to stoned if you don't show up at Masjids I know in Hadiths or Quran it says the Prophet
    Muhammad said he would like to burn houses of those who don't go pray but that is not literal I heard I remember anyways thank you for your time ?
    Last edited by truthseeker63; 12-25-2017 at 05:26 AM.

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    The apostates of Islam who get into trouble are hostile to the religion. Muslims are free to leave their homeland and live with infidels and abandon their religion, but if they attack Islam it stands to reason that they are courting trouble.
    Right, and I think this speaks volumes. To "attack" and be "hostile" towards Islam is really just to criticize it, and maybe also to try to de-convert Muslims, right? But by "courting trouble" I think you are referring to physical violence. That's a big problem, IMO. Peace is a great good, to be valued and treasured. But Muslims routinely go berserk in reaction to mere words. I think this is a deep stain on the religion, and it's the kind of thing that urges us peaceful people to aggressively criticize Islam.

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    Right, and I think this speaks volumes. To "attack" and be "hostile" towards Islam is really just to criticize it, and maybe also to try to de-convert Muslims, right? But by "courting trouble" I think you are referring to physical violence. That's a big problem, IMO. Peace is a great good, to be valued and treasured. But Muslims routinely go berserk in reaction to mere words. I think this is a deep stain on the religion, and it's the kind of thing that urges us peaceful people to aggressively criticize Islam.
    With respect, I honestly think you're gravely mistaken if you believe that the only types of "attack" and hostility towards Islam exists in the form of criticism. Criticism, if fair, can be an opportunity for communication of a person's own position or clarification of a worldview or even discussion. However, that's not the case when ignorance and prejudice start to reign supreme in the minds of the majority of the host populace. The xenophobia and Islamophobia is a reality and far from a term of art that non-Muslims have deemed it as a way to keep on vilifying Islam as the monster which breeds monsters and thereby must be treated with aggressive action, anger, and hostility. For example, recently, a sister in a now-deleted-thread was talking about how she lives in Dearborn, Michigan called "Fearful in America" and had her neighbor's car burned down, her husband beaten and hospitalized, her children bullied, all for being Muslims. She was extremely worried that she and her family would be killed for being Muslim as her husband was unwilling to relocate. There is no type of cure or excuse for that level of bigotry. Remember always when you're criticizing Islam, in the minds of a lot of people, Islam is synonymous with all Muslims; and thereby they won't make the distinction that maybe you might be inclined to make, which is that there are Muslims who deserve criticism and Muslims who won't due to their individual choices or behaviors.

    More importantly, it is not only Muslims that go "'beserk' in reaction to mere words" because you'll have an opportunity to see how people in the U.S. are going beserk on both sides of the political spectrum, left-wing and right-wing, when it comes to President Donald Trump. People on the left go beserk when President Donald Trump, in his true form to cheap theatrics, tweets anything "unpresidential" and the hard-core right-wingers go crazy when their new god is criticized in any form as if the greatest evil is to be able to identify what is wrong with this deeply flawed man that sits right now in the Oval Office. You live in a world wherein left-wing social justice warriors will go "beserk" if you dare to even insinuate that the transgender female or male still have the genes that identifies them as the gender with which they were born scientifically and you'll have right-wing social justice warriors go "beserk" if you perpetuate the notion that "Happy Holidays" is just a neutrally beneficial way to recognize and celebrate all different holiday traditions that fall into this month of the calendar when they believe that there's a "war on 'Merry Christmas'" and their dear beloved leader has brought it back from the jaws of death at the hands of sadist liberals. So, I don't like the implication that Muslims are the only ones who go beserk in reaction to mere words. It's been happening now for a long time - it is just that Muslims get a bad rap i.e. reputation for when they do go "beserk" because Muslim are easier to "otherize" and demonize because their main identity does not reflect that in which the host population can see easily a mirror of themselves. (Do some Scientologists go "beserk" when Scientology is criticized? Do some Christians go "beserk" when Christianity is criticized? Do some Hindus go "beserk" when Hinduism is criticized? If stories are to believed, in some form or the other, on one level or another, that's an unequivocal yes. We're, after all, all humans first and have shared flaws, religion or not.)

    If you want to be even real, especially with yourself, ask yourself, about a bias that you might not recognize exists: Do you honestly believe that the world populace believes the Las Vegas concert massacre in which 58 people died and more than 500 people were injured is worse than an Ariana Grande concert in which 22 people died and 59 people were injured? Because believe it or not, if you're talking to Islamophobes, one is worse than the other and nothing matters except the attacker's identity: In the latter, the male perpetrator was a Muslim. That's enough to say, "Islam is the problem" or "Muslims are the problem" or both, not killing other people without knowing who you're killing to perpetrate the greatest carnage is the problem, not glorifying violence is the problem, not giving free media coverage to any type of perpetrators is the problem. Islam is the problem. Muslims are the problem. The end.

    By the way, in some sense, I do agree with you that overzealous Muslims must learn to moderate their actions and words in response to "mere words," but it is deeply troubling that you seem to believe that aggressively criticizing Islam can ever be the act of a "peaceful people." Peaceful people are, from my understanding, "peaceful" in both their words and actions. They don't choose one or the other. Because they know that as much as words are "mere words," they still matter at the end of the day because they are the first thing upon which we judge people. Interviews for jobs? First time meetings? Social gatherings? The list goes on... In fact, if words didn't matter at all, we wouldn't even be having this conversation which ironically began in itself with words, words in which you expressed you wanted to know if Muslims feel constrained to believe and remain with their their belief system due to the apostasy taboo. Peaceful people want to help, not hurt. Peaceful people want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. (So, words matter. It's just that reasonable people believe other persons' words, right or wrong, shouldn't be the arbiter of our own present or future actions/responses/choices.)

    Peace.
    Last edited by Search; 12-25-2017 at 09:07 PM.
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    Right, and I think this speaks volumes. To "attack" and be "hostile" towards Islam is really just to criticize it, and maybe also to try to de-convert Muslims, right? But by "courting trouble" I think you are referring to physical violence. That's a big problem, IMO. Peace is a great good, to be valued and treasured. But Muslims routinely go berserk in reaction to mere words. I think this is a deep stain on the religion, and it's the kind of thing that urges us peaceful people to aggressively criticize Islam.
    Peace is good but it can only be attained by two ways. God turns everybody into goody goody two shoes or an oppressive political power so great on Earth crushes the people into absolute servitude of the state and the people would be too afraid to ever even think of rebelling. The religious believe in the former while the Godless are working on the latter. So war and struggle is the price of freedom and I would prefer that than totalitarian oppression that enforces peace. Only the Creator has the right to change our nature.

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Salaam

    Oh great this is what this forum needs, another atheist looking to subvert.

    Don't you have better things to do with your time?

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by happymuslim View Post
    Lmao if apostates were killed then why is islam growing so fast?
    Apostates and non-Muslims are often being killed in Muslim-majority countries for their disbelief, and many Muslims believe that this is right. Read the news or read what IslamQA has to say on the topic...

    https://islamqa.info/en/20327 "Why is the apostate to be executed in Islam?"

    Here is an excerpt:

    If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

    The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)

    See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.

    Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”

    [al-Nisa’ 4:59]

    And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Junon View Post
    Salaam

    Oh great this is what this forum needs, another atheist looking to subvert.

    Don't you have better things to do with your time?
    I think it's actually a very valid question that the OP asks. Why kill someone who simply cannot believe? The person who disbelieves is going to hell anyways as per Islam...

  17. #73
    happymuslim's Avatar
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere View Post
    Apostates and non-Muslims are often being killed in Muslim-majority countries for their disbelief, and many Muslims believe that this is right. Read the news or read what IslamQA has to say on the topic...

    https://islamqa.info/en/20327 "Why is the apostate to be executed in Islam?"

    Here is an excerpt:

    If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims.

    The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)

    See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 22/180.

    Thus it will be clear to you that execution of the apostate is something that is commanded by Allaah, when he commanded us to obey the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority”

    [al-Nisa’ 4:59]

    And the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has commanded us to execute the apostate as in the hadeeth quoted above: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.
    Alright I see your confusion, please with an open mind, watch this video.

    https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc

    https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc
    1 | Likes fschmidt liked this post

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    fromelsewhere's Avatar
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by happymuslim View Post
    Alright I see your confusion, please with an open mind, watch this video.

    https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc

    https://youtu.be/k4GK2I6GMcc
    Again, many Muslims believe that it is right to kill apostates and disbelievers. This is why there are plenty of terrorist groups that exist who claim to be practicing Islam (I don't think I need to give examples, do I?). This does not mean that most Muslims believe that this is right or that this is what Islam is about. But there are a lot of Muslim scholars out there who preach a very hardline Islam and who state very clearly that apostates should be killed. This is very unfortunate because these scholars influence lots of people, especially those who are less educated and who don't have access to other scholars/opinions on religion.

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    happymuslim's Avatar
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere View Post
    Again, many Muslims believe that it is right to kill apostates and disbelievers. This is why there are plenty of terrorist groups that exist who claim to be practicing Islam (I don't think I need to give examples, do I?). This does not mean that most Muslims believe that this is right or that this is what Islam is about. But there are a lot of Muslim scholars out there who preach a very hardline Islam and who state very clearly that apostates should be killed. This is very unfortunate because these scholars influence lots of people, especially those who are less educated and who don't have access to other scholars/opinions on religion.
    Your right it is unfortunate that their are extremist versions of Islam who twist things to there liking but remember, don’t judge islam based on what muslims do. Base it on what Islam really says. If you met a bunch of Muslims who permitted the drinking of alcohol does that make it permissible in Islam? apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you? no apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?. Because Islam says that alcohol is impermissible. Simple concept.

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    fromelsewhere's Avatar
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by happymuslim View Post
    Your right it is unfortunate that their are extremist versions of Islam who twist things to there liking but remember, don’t judge islam based on what muslims do. Base it on what Islam really says. If you met a bunch of Muslims who permitted the drinking of alcohol does that make it permissible in Islam? apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you? no apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?. Because Islam says that alcohol is impermissible. Simple concept.
    But what does Islam really say on the topic of apostasy is debatable as some scholars take the hardline and say "kill the apostate" and then you have other scholars such as Dr. Shabir Ally who are quite moderate and say "there is no compulsion in religion... you don't kill the apostate nowadays." If only the moderate views of people like Dr. Shabir Ally were more mainstream...

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    happymuslim's Avatar
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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere View Post
    But what does Islam really say on the topic of apostasy is debatable as some scholars take the hardline and say "kill the apostate" and then you have other scholars such as Dr. Shabir Ally who are quite moderate and say "there is no compulsion in religion... you don't kill the apostate nowadays." If only the moderate views of people like Dr. Shabir Ally were more mainstream...
    Well that’s your bias. He spoke facts and your take on it was “oh well, he’s moderate”. He explained why it doesn’t apply to our current times in a reasonable, rational fashion. Um no, you clearly are trying to find an excuse to continue arguing. Here is another video, maybe this could help you understand what Islam says about apostasy:

    https://youtu.be/it_j1k-MPPA

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by happymuslim View Post
    Well that’s your bias. He spoke facts and your take on it was “oh well, he’s moderate”. He explained why it doesn’t apply to our current times in a reasonable, rational fashion. Um no, you clearly are trying to find an excuse to continue arguing. Here is another video, maybe this could help you understand what Islam says about apostasy:

    https://youtu.be/it_j1k-MPPA
    I’m sorry I read your reply wrong, I guess your right. I do hope his explanation on this debate becomes more mainstream apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by fromelsewhere View Post
    Again, many Muslims believe that it is right to kill apostates and disbelievers. This is why there are plenty of terrorist groups that exist who claim to be practicing Islam (I don't think I need to give examples, do I?).
    Yes, you do. Care to give some examples of terrorist groups whose agenda is specifically, primarily to hunt down apostates? No moving of the goalposts.

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    Re: apostasy in Islam, how does it affect you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa View Post
    Yes, you do. Care to give some examples of terrorist groups whose agenda is specifically, primarily to hunt down apostates? No moving of the goalposts.
    Some examples off the top of my head: Yazidis in Iraq (courtesy of ISIS), Copts in Egypt (courtesy of Al Qaeda and ISIS), Christians in Nigeria (courtesy of Boko Haram), Salman Rushdie who is in hiding due to Iranian leaders issuing a fatwa calling for his death.

    And here is a link to an article that discusses the countries where apostasy is punishable by death. There are 13 such countries, and all these countries are Muslim-majority countries: https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...e-death/355961

    The countries are: Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen.

    Of course, many other countries have apostasy laws but don't punish by death (officially, at least). There's a video circulating online of a Christian convert who was beheaded in Tunisia in 2012 by a bunch of masked men. I don't watch these types of videos, but part of the video was aired on an Egyptian show.
    Last edited by fromelsewhere; 12-31-2017 at 09:09 PM.

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