It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.
Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.
So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?
I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.
It´s not a lack of freedom. We all are free to follow the right path which has been explained in the Quran (so "to believe what the evidence indicates is true") and save our souls at the Day of Judgement. You are welcome to learn more about those things if you are interesting. It´s never too late.
And when it goes to the open-mindeness of the westerners, I as the westerner dare to disagree about it. I have met many very closed-minded people here in the west - specially when it goes to the respect of Muslim´s belief. I even have witness racism and Islamophobia. Have you ever noticed those things?
By the way, I am sure we have discussed about this matter also before in this forum. Did you search older topics before you asked those your questions?
Last edited by sister herb; 11-05-2017 at 10:50 AM.
It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.
As long as your brain doesn't fall out, I guess.
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.
They do? News to me.
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.
You're mistaken. I think you have dark ages Christian Europe mixed up with Islam mate.
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?
No.
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.
Thanks!
I've doubted my faith many times in the past... but through study and reflection I have come to understand that it is in Atheism that one is truly left wandering without direction. Islam is where I am comfortable, my belief in God and His messenger are where I find direction. And it is in the practice of my faith where I find peace, peace enough to become a better human being far beyond what I would be able to muster as an Atheist without direction would.
I wonder, why are you an atheist? Where do you get your moral compass from? and what do you mean by "evidence"???
I don't see how an atheist can justify morality based on "survival of the fittest" which itself is antithetical to moral virtue. Neither do I see how an atheist believes evidences are solely empirical by nature, bit of a one trick pony, is your science - and might I also add - that science doesn't ever ask "why" and is only concerned with the "how" - process, not reason. Science is thus, quite devoid of "reason"! It is a bit mindless like that!
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.
So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?
Loaded question is loaded. I've never been subjected to any of that, nor seen any indication that I would.
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.
Right until the moment your open-mindedness leads you to conclusions that are socially unacceptable. At the very least, the fact that you have arrived at such conclusions is held as evidence that you were never really open-minded in the first place, but either stupid, brainwashed or under the influence of [insert cognitive flaw du jour].
It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue.
That should be the start of a comedy routine. I can't think of any culture in the world that is more closed-minded than modern Western culture. If it is discovered in the West that you don't conform to their beliefs, you will be ridiculed and quite likely won't be able to get a job.
I am not Muslim, I follow the Old Testament. Yet I attend mosque because Muslims are one of the only people who are open-minded enough to accept people of other beliefs. (The other tolerant group that I know of are traditional Anabaptists.)
I am a Muslim who has openly apostated (due to mental illness) before.
A few of my fellow muslims who didn´t understand were angry at me, or disgusted. Most were just sad for me. No one threatened me. Pure Islam teaches freedom in faith unless you live in a country under Shariah, and even then you must go around trying to get others to apostate or openly insult Allah and the Messenger (PBUH) to be punished. And even when you face execution, if you swear on Allah that you are a believer no one may proceed to execute you.
So those people who live in fear of their lives usually come from a place where cultural honor is mixed with Islam, and not pure Islam.
I am a Muslim who has openly apostated (due to mental illness) before.
A few of my fellow muslims who didn´t understand were angry at me, or disgusted. Most were just sad for me. No one threatened me. Pure Islam teaches freedom in faith unless you live in a country under Shariah, and even then you must go around trying to get others to apostate or openly insult Allah and the Messenger (PBUH) to be punished. And even when you face execution, if you swear on Allah that you are a believer no one may proceed to execute you.
So those people who live in fear of their lives usually come from a place where cultural honor is mixed with Islam, and not pure Islam.
Salaam
Islam is a way of balance. Once you fall into any extreme it will result in rage, ego or sadness by the choices you've made and the thoughts you manifest. All three of those which are rooted in evil.
Happiness, peace and acceptance of one another should be easy, right? That choice is down to us. Even if we cannot agree with another's way of life, accept it, let it have no bearing on our lives for it is not in our control.
Why destroy our brain cells over someone else's decision (from their past or present, despite having no knowlegde of what they might be in the future) when in the End, "no soul will avail another" - but this shouldn't stop you from practicing patience and kindness.
We all commit these small crimes from time to time, of being quick to judge and which sometimes result in aggressive negative behaviour, and may Allah (swt) forgive us for that , Ameen.
We can't escape our families, our culture, the society we are born to live in - relocating, cutting ties is sometimes not an option. But God has taught us to learn from one another - even if our beliefs do not align, take the good and leave the bad. Educate and share, be open to adapting and change. You must be fluid in this existence and find opportunities in rejection, if something irks you, take it with a pinch of salt and reframe it, see the potential rather than being pessimistic and destructive. Inspire each other.
"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another." - (49:13)
It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.
Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.
So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?
I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.
Thanks!
Are you really an advocate for freedom? Exactly where in the west are you from because I got some news for you...
I love when these loaded questions are leved against Islam with such a smug attitude
Yes, as a born and raised westerner, I can say it is definately an open minded place, perhaps to a fault. Where else but the modern west could we nearly eradicate both measles and neo-nazism, only to have them come back in epidemic levels due to "personal freedoms"
That said, anyone is free to leave Islam as they please. I see no reason why one would be so bothered by being cut off from the muslim community when they make an active choice to leave it. As for me, i have no fear. I am steadfast in my belief, and I personally would never threaten anyone for doubt or outright breaking from Islam. It is there choice, and there should be no compulsion.
It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.
Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.
So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?
I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.
It's fairly well-accepted in the west that open-mindedness is a virtue. But in Islam this does not seem to be the case, at least when it comes to one's religious beliefs. Apostasy is shunned in Islam, to the point where apostates rightfully fear for their lives.
Now, if I was in that position, I would be deeply disturbed by the fact that I wasn't completely free to follow the evidence where it leads, and to believe what the evidence indicates is true. Muslims are threatened with death, among other punishments, as a consequence for pursuing doubt.
So, my question is this: How do you Muslims feel about that lack of freedom? Does it bother you that you're threatened with punishment, even up to death, for doubting Islam, should you come to lose your faith?
I guess the question itself might be hard to answer, because if you say "yes" then you risk backlash from your fellow Muslims. But we shall see.
Thanks!
Well, the number of Islamic converts are growing sooo, I’m not sure if your statements are true bcuz the stats say otherwise
A laugh a minute, in that one, with a good ole grand ending to boot... or was that a sendoff?
That ending! LOL
That apostate just executed herself. What an embarrassment. Imagine if he asked that question from the very beginning. The conversation would of ended before it even started
That apostate just executed herself. What an embarrassment. Imagine if he asked that question from the very beginning. The conversation would of ended before it even started
He gave her so many chances before giving her the rope to hang herself with hehe,.It was an absolute pleasure to film and edit this! Alhamdulillah!!!
Here is bro Mansur, schooling some dogmatic Christians - I think you will like this one too!
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I hesitate to reply, but I don't want you to think it was a hit-and-run post. Even if I don't reply to all the responses, that doesn't mean I'm not reading them and thinking about them. But let me give a few brief thoughts.
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Loaded question is loaded. I've never been subjected to any of that, nor seen any indication that I would.
Yeah, it is somewhat loaded, I freely admit. But hopefully it's not too loaded. I'm not trying to say that threatening apostates is what Islam teaches, necessarily. But the fact remains, there are many people out in the world who believe that apostates should be murdered. You may disagree with them, but they're out there all the same. If I was a Muslim, that would bother me a lot.
format_quote Originally Posted by fschmidt
I can't think of any culture in the world that is more closed-minded than modern Western culture. If it is discovered in the West that you don't conform to their beliefs, you will be ridiculed and quite likely won't be able to get a job.
I disagree as to the severity of the problem---there are many non-western nations where the situation is a lot worse!---but I do agree that people in the west are not anywhere near as open-minded as they sometimes profess to be.
In fact, this is one of the reasons I have thought about this. Since I live in the west, I'm acutely aware that having sufficiently non-politically-correct beliefs can get a person into considerable trouble. And that bothers me greatly, as I'm not really free at all to openly disagree with certain beliefs and values. So, I wonder if the lack of freedom to be truly open-minded bothers Muslims, too.
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I hesitate to reply, but I don't want you to think it was a hit-and-run post. Even if I don't reply to all the responses, that doesn't mean I'm not reading them and thinking about them. But let me give a few brief thoughts.
WOW, I humored you with a response and you have a "get out of jail" card? amazing!!! Must be those open minded western morals of yours eh? no common courtesy to be found there I guess!
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
Yeah, it is somewhat loaded, I freely admit. But hopefully it's not too loaded.
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
I'm not trying to say that threatening apostates is what Islam teaches, necessarily.
Well, at least you got this right! That's one point for you. You can cash it in next time you order a loaded brain fart!
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
But the fact remains, there are many people out in the world who believe that apostates should be murdered.
When exactly did your subjective opinion become a fact?
format_quote Originally Posted by hatsoff
You may disagree with them, but they're out there all the same. If I was a Muslim, that would bother me a lot.
Good thing you aint then, isn't it? But did you stop to wonder about those of us who ACTUALLY ARE MUSLIM? coz it don't bother us, a shred!
The rest of your post seems suspiciously a lot like an attempt at brown tonguing. Another bad western habit!
Yeah, it is somewhat loaded, I freely admit. But hopefully it's not too loaded. I'm not trying to say that threatening apostates is what Islam teaches, necessarily. But the fact remains, there are many people out in the world who believe that apostates should be murdered. You may disagree with them, but they're out there all the same. If I was a Muslim, that would bother me a lot.
Such believs are indeed widespread, and they have real consequences. They are, however, far from universal, which your post was effectively premised on.
"Since I live in the west, I'm acutely aware that having sufficiently non-politically-correct beliefs can get a person into considerable trouble. And that bothers me greatly, as I'm not really free at all to openly disagree with certain beliefs and values."
Freedom of speech still exists in the west..
But one should be wary of which audience one seeks.
Political correctness allows for much to be said, its an art form.. to create waves under the surface..or subdue them.
But in reality, in speaking plainly.. is where the moves are made.
And political correctness often follows.
Imo.. one subject just leads on to the next in terms of understanding.
At the end of the day the "choice" is yours.. until it isnt.
The imams son who is a solicitor gave the sermon last friday..
On poltical opposition to sharia law higher up in the country.. and its lack of political correctness in its expression.
Strange days.
..i just dont speak because i dont know what the hell comes out my mouth sometimes.
Probably only understand what you said after you already left the room.
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