We have all the instructions we need, I am not sure what another prophet could do.
Muslims claim similarly that Islam provides all the rules necessary for the perfect justice system as well as for every day life in general. Many times I heard that the Islamic scriptures provide the solutions for all modern problems.
That's a huge claim to make, now, can you back it up and prove it ?
The answer is "No".
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
I tried to address that claim on one of my "Closed" threads with no convincing answers.None of the more than 50 countries with Muslim majority implements 100% sharia.
How is that possible ? So perfect that not even Muslims dare to adopt it.
My personal opinion is that Muslims know deep inside that those regulations would never work in this modern world.They need to be updated, but how ?
You cannot update and change God's rules with man made ones.
I would love to see an 100% sharia country.
Imaging walking thru the streets and noticing people with missing hands, others missing feet and limbs.
Approaching the park you can witness an adultery stoning.
Further up the street there is a public execution of a gay person, you cover your eyes from the sun because they're going to drop him from a tall building.
Just another day in a perfect world.
How much longer do we have to wait for it ?
Disclaimer: The previous imaginary scenario is based purely on my own research. No disrespect intended.
Something just popped in my head and since we're dealing with sharia law I'll ask.
What happens if two policeman find an unmarried couple having sex hidden in a park?
The couple would immediately denied having sex.
Adultery requires four witnesses but these witnesses are policeman.
Are four witnesses still required for an adultery accusation in this case.
I just realized my mistake, an unmarried couple having unlawful sex is not adultery but fornication.
So in that case four witnesses are not needed and the two policemen are enough.
Interesting.
The duty of the state is not to nose into every minuscule event where God has constrained it by setting laws such as the four witnesses law.
The duty of the state is to ensure social justice in Allah's sight, and to foster an atmosphere of taqwa by enjoining and encouraging good, detering and discouraging from evil, and policing public wrongdoings including brazen filthy acts in public.
in this way, a person gets to go out and about without filthy thoughts being cast into his/her mind and the minds of their children.
Before long - filthiness is generally shunned, and righteous and kind acts in Allah's sight are applauded.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I like you brother
I WISH I could have met you in real life and we could have been friends in real life!! Such strength and common sense and not afraid to speak your mind!!
Please make dua for me,
If you want to meet up for Allah's sake and in submission and obedience to Him, i have a small jekyll island like resort (where money grows on trees in the form of fruits - unlike the "federal" reserve bank where money grows on trees, then gets printed on, then added to the already diluted soup) where we can smoke shisha, do woodwork, and go fishing on.
The duty of the state is not to nose into every minuscule event where God has constrained it by setting laws such as the four witnesses law.
The duty of the state is to ensure social justice in Allah's sight, and to foster an atmosphere of taqwa by enjoining and encouraging good, detering and discouraging from evil, and policing public wrongdoings including brazen filthy acts in public.
in this way, a person gets to go out and about without filthy thoughts being cast into his/her mind and the minds of their children.
Before long - filthiness is generally shunned, and righteous and kind acts in Allah's sight are applauded.
- - - Updated - - -
Please make dua for me,
If you want to meet up for Allah's sake and in submission and obedience to Him, i have a small jekyll island like resort that we can smoke shisha, do woodwork, and go fishing on.
I would love that brother I would! I would! I would! When I hear there will be 50 women to 1 man in the end of time I feel like...I lost all potential friends (Alhamdolillah I am not there yet) I will miss on having a brotherly hug I WANT TO GO FISHING WITH YOU BROTHER! I WOULD LIKE THAT!!!!!! Brother I am soon may permenantly move away from this Western world forever Insha'Allah and move to Islamic country...turkey! I hope we meet there one day and become friends in real life!
The law of Allah is a profound subject; it should deter people from breaking the law, if you don’t want to get stoned to death, then don’t commit adultery. A real believer would fear Allah and not break any of the laws; we should fear Allah more than we fear getting caught by any law enforcement.
I think law and justice are very different subjects, the person who has been murdered or raped can never get justice, they cannot be un – killed or un - raped. The most that can happen is if the perpetrator is caught, they can be punished.
Punishment just means one more person suffers; it is not the same as justice. Only Allah can grant true justice in a greater good life after death.
In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,
Eric
The law of just retaliation is a check and balance which can be waved if there is the understanding that it is better to forgive, or accept a fine and forgive.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I would love that brother I would! I would! I would! When I hear there will be 50 women to 1 man in the end of time I feel like...I lost all potential friends (Alhamdolillah I am not there yet) I will miss on having a brotherly hug I WANT TO GO FISHING WITH YOU BROTHER! I WOULD LIKE THAT!!!!!! Brother I am soon may permenantly move away from this Western world forever Insha'Allah and move to Islamic country...turkey! I hope we meet there one day and become friends in real life!
I've got a deal for you where there's no unwanted cutting hands, electrocuting people to death, lashing, etc,
we'll send all the unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites -to america; and you send all the people who seek to obey God to the middle east and surroundings, then we all live happily ever after.
The law of just retaliation is a check and balance which can be waved if there is the understanding that it is better to forgive, or accept a fine and forgive.
That is beautiful :'(.....that is beautiful....I want that....such simple life...I would give away all the material in the world to have that :'( to have a son of my own to live in Muslim country to say Asallaam...to hear athan...to live in rural area and feeding the chicken was so calming and relaxing....- wipes my eyes -.....I would give everything I have to live in a place like yours......I feeel I live in a country SURROUNDED BY ZOMBIES.....Western world is a zombie world!!! ZOMBIE WORLD!
I do not care for education.....as long as my knowledge in islam and know about the prophets and know the proper aqeeda and fiqh...that is the most important education on Earth. MATH, BIOLOGY, LITERATURE, PHYSICS, CHEMISTRY is nice...but if it i snot for sake of Allah and say Allah Akbar after learning them it is waste of time and worthless and to be honest...it is worldly thing and all it breeds is arrogance and...such knowledge is destructive not helpful. If I learning all of these is not for the proper intention to help Muslims and to bring people more closer to Allah...YOU HAVE SERIOUSLY WASTED YOUR CHILDREN'S TIME and your TIME for all these degrees and you bring children into depression mode if they fail in these courses you make them feel useless and stupid...why? Why do that? We human beings are living like the mass chickens in factories who are asked to lay eggs over and over and over until we die. Unnatural. Instead of free range chicken and roosters where they mate naturally and have their own babies and we take from there eggs...we abuse the chickens...guess what...we are the chickens. Everything here is mathematical and scripted...everything here is scientific and research and statistic ...everything is done by measurement and science....WE NO LONGER HUMANS. Everything is unnatural and we become an automated machines following a scripted routine like that you watch in TVs. Nothing human. Those videos you posted...have opened my heart and mind and made me feel human since a very long time....
PEOPLE ZOMBIE IS REAL! IT IS NOT FICTIONAL! ZOMBIES ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE:
A) Atheists
B) Mushrikeens
C) Hypocrites
D) Kuffars
Those are real zombies...they are TRULY THE WALKING UNDEAD
Last edited by xboxisdead; 09-22-2018 at 09:00 PM.
I was responding to someone who maybe didn't read my post about rape. I don't have a problem repeating over and over the same thing to different people who didn't participated in other threads.
You were not just repeating a problem to someone, rather you were making a repeated false claim after it was clearly debunked. Read the previous thread once again, and you will find that it was explained to you that adultery and rape are not the same under Islamic law.
When you lie against Islam or Muslims out of ignorance, and then you are presented with the correct information, you are not supposed to keep re-posting the same lies.
The incidents of Dubai or Qatar posted in those videos are just one side of the story. Every court has a procedure for crime investigation. Sharia law has its own procedure. Dubai courts or Qatar courts have their own procedure. If their investigations have found that the crime was not an actual rape, rather it was adultery, then you don't have a right to interfere in their ruling. Unless you are a member of the investigating team who can study all the presented evidences, record witness statements etc, you do not have a right to pass a judgement on their ruling.
26. And those who reject/cover the just truth say: "Listen not to this Qur'an, but talk at random in the midst of its (reading), that ye may gain the upper hand!"
27. But We will certainly give those who reject/cover the just truth a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.
28. Such is the requital of the enemies of Allah,- the Fire: therein will be for them the Eternal Home: a (fit) requital, for that they were wont to reject Our Signs.
29. And those who reject/cover the just truth will say: "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us: We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all)."
30. In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah., and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them: "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!
31. "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter: therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!-
32. "A hospitable gift from one Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful!"
33. Who is better in speech than one who calls towards Allah, works righteousness, and says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"?
34. Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!
35. And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,- none but persons of the greatest good fortune.
36. And if (at any time) an incitement to discord is made to thee by the Satan, seek refuge in Allah. He is the One Who hears and knows all things.
37. Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve.
38. But if they are arrogant, (no matter): for in the presence of thy Lord are those who celebrate His praises by night and by day. And they never flag (nor feel themselves above it).
39. And among His Signs in this: thou seest the earth barren and desolate; but when We send down rain to it, it is stirred to life and yields increase. Truly, He Who gives life to the (dead) earth can surely give life to those who are dead. For He has power over all things.
40. Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better?- he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgment? Do what ye will: verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do.
41. Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.
42. No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.
43. Nothing is said to thee that was not said to the messengers before thee: that thy lord has at his Command (all) forgiveness as well as a most Grievous Penalty.
Read the previous thread once again, and you will find that it was explained to you that adultery and rape are not the same under Islamic law.
You are barking at the wrong tree.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED THAT ADULTERY AND RAPE ARE THE SAME CRIME.
Maybe you should pay close attention to what is being said and ask questions when something is not clear to you.
It could be that I communicated in a way you couldn't comprehend, I'm an excellent writer as you should have noticed.
Let me explained again the point I have been trying to bring up:
It has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
Most adultery convictions happen when women (foreigners for the most part) accuse their rapist and by doing so the Islamic Justice system assumes the victim is admitting having sex with the rapist. If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married).
So you see, I don't believe rape and adultery are the same but one can easily bring the other.
By the way what I depicted above has been taken from real cases readily available in the internet.
I don't know if justice was done according to correct Islamic principle or not.
I only know this keeps happening in some Islamic countries using the same kind of thinking.
I hope this clears your confusion about what I meant.
You are barking at the wrong tree.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED THAT ADULTERY AND RAPE ARE THE SAME CRIME.
Maybe you should pay close attention to what is being said and ask questions when something is not clear to you.
It could be that I communicated in a way you couldn't comprehend, I'm an excellent writer as you should have noticed.
Let me explained again the point I have been trying to bring up:
It has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
Most adultery convictions happen when women (foreigners for the most part) accuse their rapist and by doing so the Islamic Justice system assumes the victim is admitting having sex with the rapist. If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married).
So you see, I don't believe rape and adultery are the same but one can easily bring the other.
By the way what I depicted above has been taken from real cases readily available in the internet.
I don't know if justice was done according to correct Islamic principle or not.
I only know this keeps happening in some Islamic countries using the same kind of thinking.
I hope this clears your confusion about what I meant.
False accusation of rape is no small issue in Islam as it risks being manipulated into "execution by cop/judge" and therefore conspiracy and murder.
The Prophet did his best to get it right but it wasn't always perfect as will be demonstrated in the hadith below, and the legislation on the issue continued to develop as the state progressed.
FORT WORTH, Texas — An indictment has been issued in a fatal shooting that allegedly stemmed from a romantic tryst — not against the angry husband who fired the gun, but against his wife, who prosecutors say falsely claimed she was being raped.
Tracy Roberson was indicted on a manslaughter count Thursday in the death of Devin LaSalle. Legal experts said the argument for charging her and not her husband was unusual, but seemed reasonable.
"It certainly is different," George E. Dix, a law professor at the University of Texas at Austin, told the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. "But the theory sounds perfectly acceptable to me."
The 19-year-old Long Island woman who filed a bogus rape complaint against two Sacred Heart University football players was sentenced Thursday to a year behind bars — and got a tongue lashing from the judge.
Nikki Yovino first told cops in October 2016 that the two players from the Fairfield, Connecticut, college forced her to have sex in a bathroom at a booze-filled party.
She later admitted that she made the charges up so her evident promiscuity wouldn’t alienate a potential boyfriend.
We see here that an innocent man almost lost his life based on the understanding that the woman was accurate in her statement and identification, but that she was absolved of the false accusation due to the fact that it was admitted by the perpetrator that she had indeed been violated against her will, and that her initial accusation was a case of mistaken identity:
Chapter: Regarding one deserving of the punishment coming to confess
(7)
باب فِي صَاحِبِ الْحَدِّ يَجِيءُ فَيُقِرُّ
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:
When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (ﷺ) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.
She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: That (man) did such and such to me. And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she said: That man did such and such to me. They went and seized the man whom they thought had had intercourse with her and brought him to her.
She said: Yes, this is he. Then they brought him to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ).
When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: Messenger of Allah, I am the man who did it to her.
He (the Prophet) said to her: Go away, for Allah has forgiven you. But he told the man some good words (AbuDawud said: meaning the man who was seized), and of the man who had had intercourse with her, he said: Stone him to death.
He also said: He has repented to such an extent that if the people of Medina had repented similarly, it would have been accepted from them.
Abu Dawud said: Asbat bin Nasr has also transmitted it from Simak.
We see here that even after the passing of the Prophet there was no certain law on the issue and that the governments were doing their best to do what was right by Allah whilst continually evaluating the specific circumstances and amending legislation.
Malik said, "The position with us about a woman who is found to be pregnant and has no husband and she says, 'I was forced,' or she says, 'I was married,' is that it is not accepted from her and the hadd is inflicted on her unless she has a clear proof of what she claims about the marriage or that she was forced or she comes bleeding if she was a virgin or she calls out for help so that someone comes to her and she is in that state or what resembles it of the situation in which the violation occurred." He said, "If she does not produce any of those, the hadd is inflicted on her and what she claims of that is not accepted from her."
Malik said, "A raped woman cannot marry until she has restored herself by three menstrual periods."
He said, "If she doubts her periods, she does not marry until she has freed herself of that doubt."
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 41, Hadith 16
Report Error | Share
Idiot was formerly a legal and psychiatric category of profound intellectual disability, where a person's mental age is two years or less, and he or she cannot guard himself or herself against common physical dangers. Along with terms like moron, imbecile, and cretin, the term is now archaic and offensive,[1] and was replaced by the term profound mental retardation (which has itself since been replaced by other terms).
Nowadays, "idiot" is a derogatory term for a stupid or foolish person.
كتاب الحدود
40
Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
(16)
Chapter: If an insane person steals or commits a crime that is subject to a had
(16)
باب فِي الْمَجْنُونِ يَسْرِقُ أَوْ يُصِيبُ حَدًّا
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
AbuZubyan said: A woman who had committed adultery was brought to Umar. He gave orders that she should be stoned.
Ali passed by just then. He seized her and let her go. Umar was informed of it. He said: Ask Ali to come to me. Ali came to him and said: Commander of the Faithful, you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: There are three (people) whose actions are not recorded: A boy till he reaches puberty, a sleeper till he awakes, a lunatic till he is restored to reason. This is an idiot (mad) woman belonging to the family of so and so. Someone might have done this action with her when she suffered the fit of lunacy.
Umar said: I do not know. Ali said: I do not know.
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4402
In-book reference : Book 40, Hadith 52
English translation : Book 39, Hadith 4388
Report Error | Share
Limits and Punishments set by Allah (Hudood)
(37)
Chapter: The legal regulation for non-Muslims under the protection of a Muslim state
(37)
باب أَحْكَامِ أَهْلِ الذِّمَّةِ وَإِحْصَانِهِمْ إِذَا زَنَوْا وَرُفِعُوا إِلَى الإِمَامِ
Narrated Ash-Shaibani:
I asked `Abdullah bin Abi `Aufa about the Rajam (stoning somebody to death for committing illegal sexual intercourse). He replied, "The Prophet (ﷺ) carried out the penalty of Rajam," I asked, "Was that before or after the revelation of Surat-an-Nur?" He replied, "I do not know."
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6840
In-book reference : Book 86, Hadith 64
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 82, Hadith 824
(deprecated numbering scheme)
Chapter: If a woman is compelled to commit illegal sexual intercourse against her will
(6)
باب إِذَا اسْتُكْرِهَتِ الْمَرْأَةُ عَلَى الزِّنَا، فَلاَ حَدَّ عَلَيْهَا
فِي قَوْلِهِ تَعَالَى: {وَمَنْ يُكْرِهْهُنَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ مِنْ بَعْدِ إِكْرَاهِهِنَّ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ}.
And Safiyya bint 'Ubaid said:
"A governmental male-slave tried to seduce a slave-girl from the Khumus of the war booty till he deflowered her by force against her will; therefore 'Umar flogged him according to the law, and exiled him, but he did not flog the female slave because the male-slave had committed illegal sexual intercourse by force, against her will." Az-Zuhri said regarding a virgin slave-girl raped by a free man: The judge has to fine the adulterer as much money as is equal to the price of the female slave and the adulterer has to be flogged (according to the Islamic Law); but if the slave woman is a matron, then, according to the verdict of the Imam, the adulterer is not fined but he has to receive the legal punishment (according to the Islamic Law).
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6949
In-book reference : Book 89, Hadith 10
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 1, Book 85, Hadith 81
(deprecated numbering scheme)
22. When Joseph attained His full manhood, We gave him hukm (wisdom, discernment, judgement) and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right.
23. But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him from his (true) self: she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come, thou (dear one)!" He said: "(Allah) forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!"
24. And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her, but that he saw the evidence of his Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and shameful deeds: for he was one of Our servants, sincere and purified.
25. So they both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back: they both found her lord near the door. She said: "What is the (fitting) punishment for one who formed an evil design against thy wife, but prison or a grievous chastisement?"
26. He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me - from my (true) self." And one of her household saw (this) and bore witness, (thus):- "If it be that his shirt is rent from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar!
27. "But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!"
28. So when he saw his shirt,- that it was torn at the back,- (her husband) said: "Behold! It is a snare of you women! truly, mighty is your snare!
29. "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!"
30. Ladies said in the City: "The wife of the (great) 'Aziz is seeking to seduce her slave from his (true) self: Truly hath he inspired her with violent love: we see she is evidently going astray."
31. When she heard of their malicious talk, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them: she gave each of them a knife: and she said (to Joseph), "Come out before them." When they saw him, they did extol him, and (in their amazement) cut their hands: they said, "(Allah) preserve us! no mortal is this! this is none other than a noble angel!"
32. She said: "There before you is the man about whom ye did blame me! I did seek to seduce him from his (true) self but he did firmly save himself guiltless!....and now, if he doth not my bidding, he shall certainly be cast into prison, and (what is more) be of the company of the vilest!"
33. He said: "O my Lord! the prison is more to my liking than that to which they invite me: Unless Thou turn away their snare from me, I should (in my youthful folly) feel inclined towards them and join the ranks of the ignorant."
34. So his Lord hearkened to him (in his prayer), and turned away from him their snare: Verily He heareth and knoweth (all things).
35. Then it occurred to the men, after they had seen the signs, (that it was best) to imprison him for a time.
36. Now with him there came into the prison two young men. Said one of them: "I see myself (in a dream) pressing wine." said the other: "I see myself (in a dream) carrying bread on my head, and birds are eating, thereof." "Tell us" (they said) "The truth and meaning thereof: for we see thou art one that doth good (to all)."
37. He said: "Before any food comes (in due course) to feed either of you, I will surely reveal to you the truth and meaning of this ere it befall you: that is part of the (duty) which my Lord hath taught me. I have (I assure you) abandoned the ways of a people that believe not in Allah and that (even) deny the Hereafter.
38. "And I follow the ways of my fathers,- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and never could we attribute any partners whatever to Allah. that (comes) of the grace of Allah to us and to mankind: yet most men are not grateful.
39. "O my two companions of the prison! (I ask you): are many lords differing among themselves better, or the One Allah, Supreme and Irresistible?
40. "If not Him, ye worship nothing but names which ye have named,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah hath sent down no authority: the command is for none but Allah. He hath commanded that ye worship none but Him: that is the right religion, but most men understand not...
41. "O my two companions of the prison! As to one of you, he will pour out the wine for his lord to drink: as for the other, he will hang from the cross, and the birds will eat from off his head. (so) hath been decreed that matter whereof ye twain do enquire"...
42. And of the two, to that one whom he consider about to be saved, he said: "Mention me to thy lord." But Satan made him forget to mention him to his lord: and (Joseph) lingered in prison a few (more) years.
43. The king (of Egypt) said: "I do see (in a vision) seven fat kine, whom seven lean ones devour, and seven green ears of corn, and seven (others) withered. O ye chiefs! Expound to me my vision if it be that ye can interpret visions."
44. They said: "A confused medley of dreams: and we are not skilled in the interpretation of dreams."
45. But the man who had been released, one of the two (who had been in prison) and who now bethought him after (so long) a space of time, said: "I will tell you the truth of its interpretation: send ye me (therefore)."
46. "O Joseph!" (he said) "O man of truth! Expound to us (the dream) of seven fat kine whom seven lean ones devour, and of seven green ears of corn and (seven) others withered: that I may return to the people, and that they may understand."
47. (Joseph) said: "For seven years shall ye diligently sow as is your wont: and the harvests that ye reap, ye shall leave them in the ear,- except a little, of which ye shall eat.
48. "Then will come after that (period) seven dreadful (years), which will devour what ye shall have laid by in advance for them,- (all) except a little which ye shall have (specially) guarded.
49. "Then will come after that (period) a year in which the people will have abundant water, and in which they will press (wine and oil)."
50. So the king said: "Bring ye him unto me." But when the messenger came to him, (Joseph) said: "Go thou back to thy lord, and ask him, 'What is the state of mind of the ladies who cut their hands'? For my Lord is certainly well aware of their snare."
51. (The king) said (to the ladies): "What was your affair when ye did seek to seduce Joseph from his (true) self?" The ladies said: "(Allah) preserve us! no evil know we against him!" Said the 'Aziz's wife: "Now is the truth manifest (to all): it was I who sought to seduce him from his (true) self: He is indeed of those who are (ever) true (and virtuous).
52. "This (say I), in order that He may know that I have never been false to him in his absence, and that Allah will never guide the snare of the false ones.
53. "Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely my Lord is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful."
54. So the king said: "Bring him unto me; I will take him specially to serve about my own person." Therefore when he had spoken to him, he said: "Be assured this day, thou art, before our own presence, with rank firmly established, and fidelity fully proved!
55. (Joseph) said: "Set me over the store-houses of the land: I will indeed guard them, as one that knows (their importance)."
56. Thus did We give established power to Joseph in the land, to take possession therein as, when, or where he pleased. We bestow of our Mercy on whom We please, and We suffer not, to be lost, the reward of those who do good.
57. But verily the reward of the Hereafter is the best, for those who believe, and are constant in righteousness.
58. Then came Joseph's brethren: they entered his presence, and he knew them, but they knew him not.
From Quran, Chapter 12
14. When he reached full age, and was firmly established (in life), We bestowed on him hukm (wisdom, discernment, judgement) and knowledge: for thus do We reward those who do good.
15. And he entered the city at a time when its people were not watching: and he found there two men fighting,- one of his own religion, and the other, of his foes. Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe, and Moses struck him with his fist and made an end of him. He said: "This is a work of Evil (Satan): for he is an enemy that manifestly misleads!"
16. He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So ((Allah)) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
17. He said: "O my Lord! For that Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace on me, never shall I be a help to those who sin!"
18. So he saw the morning in the city, looking about, in a state of fear, when behold, the man who had, the day before, sought his help called aloud for his help (again). Moses said to him: "Thou art truly, it is clear, a quarrelsome fellow!"
19. Then, when he decided to lay hold of the man who was an enemy to both of them, that man said: "O Moses! Is it thy intention to slay me as thou slewest a man yesterday? Thy intention is none other than to become a powerful violent man in the land, and not to be one who sets things right!"
20. And there came a man, running, from the furthest end of the City. He said: "O Moses! the Chiefs are taking counsel together about thee, to slay thee: so get thee away, for I do give thee sincere advice."
21. He therefore got away therefrom, looking about, in a state of fear. He prayed "O my Lord! save me from people given to wrong-doing."
22. Then, when he turned his face towards (the land of) Madyan, he said: "I do hope that my Lord will show me the smooth and straight Path."
23. And when he arrived at the watering (place) in Madyan, he found there a group of men watering (their flocks), and besides them he found two women who were keeping back (their flocks). He said: "What is the matter with you?" They said: "We cannot water (our flocks) until the shepherds take back (their flocks): And our father is a very old man."
24. So he watered (their flocks) for them; then he turned back to the shade, and said:"O my Lord! truly am I in (desperate) need of any good that Thou dost send me!"
25. Afterwards one of the (damsels) came (back) to him, walking bashfully. She said: "My father invites thee that he may reward thee for having watered (our flocks) for us." So when he came to him and narrated the story, he said: "Fear thou not: (well) hast thou escaped from unjust people."
26. Said one of the (damsels): "O my (dear) father! engage him on wages: truly the best of men for thee to employ is the (man) who is strong and trusty"....
27. He said: "I intend to wed one of these my daughters to thee, on condition that thou serve me for eight years; but if thou complete ten years, it will be (grace) from thee. But I intend not to place thee under a difficulty: thou wilt find me, indeed, if Allah wills, one of the righteous."
28. He said: "Be that (the agreement) between me and thee: whichever of the two terms I fulfil, let there be no ill-will to me. Be Allah a witness to what we say."
1 - where is the case file - it seems she didn't have any evidence for rape, what happen to the men?
2 - alleged rape couldn't prove it in Court it seems.
3 - he says she says case with zero evidence.
Due process and presumption of innocence is corner stone of Justice - these all seem to be sensationalized media coverage without any evidence of case files. The same would be needed in any court, furthermore false rape accusation should also be taken inconsideration here. This sort of media coverage happens every where.
Of course there is Cosby, Trump, weinstein, Rolf Harris, Max Cliifford, Polanski (still not convicted) countless men that have been hard to put behind bars because of lack of evidence or fear of powerful retribution.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
t has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
Most adultery convictions happen when women (foreigners for the most part) accuse their rapist and by doing so the Islamic Justice system assumes the victim is admitting having sex with the rapist.
The presumption of innocence happens in any court - the burden of proof is on the person claiming the crime, Name me one justice system that does or even can function otherwise. What would be interesting is to see where the cases actually broke and why the lawyers pleaded for sex outside marriage rather then take the false accusation hit. Or why the proof wasn't strong enough to convict the alleged rapist. Or of miscarriage of Justice actually did take place.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married)
Presumption of innocence - if a women claimed you raped her the burden lies with her to prove it - or do we just lock you up?
Its not adultery its false rape accusation which is serious in any place on earth.
Last edited by Zafran; 09-23-2018 at 01:00 AM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
I've got a deal for you where there's no unwanted cutting hands, electrocuting people to death, lashing, etc,
we'll send all the unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites -to america; and you send all the people who seek to obey God to the middle east and surroundings, then we all live happily ever after.
Is that an admission that the middle east is full of "unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites" ???
What gave you the impression that the believers (all denominations, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc) would accept such a proposal???
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent. The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.
Presumption of innocence - if a women claimed you raped her the burden lies with her to prove it - or do we just lock you up?
I understand your point, let's try another one:
As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.
Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
1 - where is the case file - it seems she didn't have any evidence for rape, what happen to the men?
Presumption of innocence - if a women claimed you raped her the burden lies with her to prove it - or do we just lock you up?
Its not adultery its false rape accusation which is serious in any place on earth.
By the way that is exactly what is happening in USA and any Western world. In USA..the woman's word is the law, in USA and Canada her law is even above Allah's law (athubillah). She can do any false allegation of rape anytime she wants to despise her husband, boyfriend any male human she encounters and the man is immediately locked up and goes to prison and he becomes a felon, loses custody or rights of his children, loses his job, and he loses his reputation!
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Is that an admission that the middle east is full of "unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites" ???
What gave you the impression that the believers (all denominations, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc) would accept such a proposal???
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent. The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.
You are already a disbeliever so whatever you say that is not shahada will not make you a believer. You have not seen Hell Fire. The second...and millisecond you enter it...you will find everything on this Earth a paradise to you...including Middle East.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
I understand your point, let's try another one:
As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.
Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
You are a full blown troll. You use hot topics like rape, child molestation, etc to be ultra-dramatic and to look like you are the white knight or win a case. Well let me tell you that...we will play your game and will use this as means of educational to new generation and the uneducated and we will win, Insha'Allah, and you WILL LOSE Insha'Allah. Ok? - pats raymann on the head - Good boy!
You are barking at the wrong tree.
I HAVE NEVER BELIEVED THAT ADULTERY AND RAPE ARE THE SAME CRIME.
Maybe you should pay close attention to what is being said and ask questions when something is not clear to you.
It could be that I communicated in a way you couldn't comprehend, I'm an excellent writer as you should have noticed.
Let me explained again the point I have been trying to bring up:
It has been said that it is almost impossible to convict someone of adultery (4 witnesses).
*Let me explain the point I have been trying to bring up once again. Or let me re-explain the point I have been trying to bring up. An excellent writer does not forget his grammar in the next sentence.
Who says you believed adultery and rape are the same? You said rape victims would not bother pressing charges because "pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery". So you are implying here that in Islamic law, a rapist as well as the rape victim could be tried with adultery if the rapist is not convicted of rape. Is that not clear your statements? Read it again:
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
There is one dilema, every Muslim woman that is raped, would not even bother pressing charges against the rapist.
Why ? As you mention, to prove adultery 4 witnesses are needed (very unlikely possibility) but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery.
And this was already explained to you that rape and adultery are two separate crimes with different requirements for proving them in a court. Adultery requires 4 witnesses, whereas rape does not.
So I don't see how justice is accomplished here.
Maybe you are blind?
Men know very well the rules and I'm pretty sure they're taking full advantage of the flaws.
A baseless assumption.
Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time
another baseless assumption. A handful of isolated cases are not statistically sufficient to call it "all the time".
Bottom line, the statistics might say there is very low crime rate but reality is a total different thing.
another claim based on false assumptions.
If the rapist denies the accusation and by virtue that his word is worth double the woman's, then the rape charge is dismissed but adultery is now the charge (if she is married).
Double worth does not apply here. It applies for testimony, not for denial of an accusation. Claim and denial has different procedures for establishing them in a court (in absence of evidence).
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Rape, adultery, fornication are topics very much in our daily lives right now so I don't see why we should restrain ourselves from talking about what we want to talk.
Maybe in your lives, but not in Muslims lives for sure.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent. The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.
You would be surprised at the number of non-Muslims living in Dubai, or anywhere else in the Middle-East. They enjoy tax-free high ranging income and are looting Muslims' resources.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
I understand your point, let's try another one:
Answer the question first, before trying another.
As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.
Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
Under Islamic law, a rape victim can kill the rapist on the spot, without any repercussions.
You are a full blown troll. You use hot topics like rape, child molestation, etc to be ultra-dramatic and to look like you are the white knight or win a case. Well let me tell you that...we will play your game and will use this as means of educational to new generation and the uneducated and we will win, Insha'Allah, and you WILL LOSE Insha'Allah. Ok? - pats raymann on the head - Good boy!
I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape.
I do ask a lot of questions because I'm curious. I left Catholicism when nobody could no longer answer my questions.
Is that scenario that I asked about so difficult to answer.
Are you saying that Muslims themselves don't ask these kind of questions.
How is that possible?
How would they figure out what to do in all these possible scenarios???
That could easily be a real situation.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
So you are implying here that in Islamic law, a rapist as well as the rape victim could be tried with adultery if the rapist is not convicted of rape.
No, I'm not implying it, I am absolutely and positively affirming that has happened over and over in Islamic Countries and the videos I provided are proof of what I'm saying. So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Did you finally get it???
format_quote Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time
another baseless assumption. A handful of isolated cases are not statistically sufficient to call it "all the time".
Are you in denial ??? I showed you a few videos and in some of them they specifically say that "this happens all the time".
I am not that creative to invent things on the fly. I research, study and ask questions.
format_quote Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
Double worth does not apply here. It applies for testimony, not for denial of an accusation. Claim and denial has different procedures for establishing them in a court (in absence of evidence).
Thanks for the information but apparently it didn't matter, the rape charge was dismissed and adultery was charged to the foreign woman.
So what is your expert explanation???
She went to the police to claim she had been raped and end up being charged instead with adultery.
I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape.
I do ask a lot of questions because I'm curious. I left Catholicism when nobody could no longer answer my questions.
Is that scenario that I asked about so difficult to answer.
Are you saying that Muslims themselves don't ask these kind of questions.
How is that possible?
How would they figure out what to do in all these possible scenarios???
That could easily be a real situation.
- - - Updated - - -
No, I'm not implying it, I am absolutely and positively affirming that has happened over and over in Islamic Countries and the videos I provided are proof of what I'm saying. So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Did you finally get it???
Are you in denial ??? I showed you a few videos and in some of them they specifically say that "this happens all the time".
I am not that creative to invent things on the fly. I research, study and ask questions.
Thanks for the information but apparently it didn't matter, the rape charge was dismissed and adultery was charged to the foreign woman.
So what is your expert explanation???
She went to the police to claim she had been raped and end up being charged instead with adultery.
If you are asking these questions to learn and find the truth so that if it satisfied you that you will actually go ahead and become a believing Muslim...please go ahead and keep answering. But if you are asking for just asking and you find that our questions does not reach your satisfactory level then you will find that the highest level aleem and shiekh will not linger in forums. Best bet is to go ahead and seek the most intellectual and knowledgeable person out there who will help you. I am hoping however...that such time consumed to have obtained all that knowledge will not be wasted and that one day someone else ask you about how Islam deals with such and such case and you tell them what you learned and then THAT person will be so satisfied that he or she will run to the nearest mosque to know how to become a Muslim.
THEN TO ME all of this...from page 1 up until now would been worth it. But if AFTER ALL OF THAT you just throw it into the trash bin...then my advice: stop wasting our time!
HOWEVER...I will retract my word and say this is a public forum...other people will be reading this and learn from it! I will take whatever negative energy emanating from here and turn it into a positive one. I hope the youth will learn from reading all of this...but let me finalize it with this: we are not as knowledgeable as the scholars and as such...we...will...not....be...able to answer ALL your questions. So at that point...seek your knowledge by going out and finding a Muslim scholar who can answer them all.
Last edited by xboxisdead; 09-23-2018 at 05:20 AM.
I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape.
I do ask a lot of questions because I'm curious. I left Catholicism when nobody could no longer answer my questions.
Is that scenario that I asked about so difficult to answer.
Are you saying that Muslims themselves don't ask these kind of questions.
How is that possible?
How would they figure out what to do in all these possible scenarios???
That could easily be a real situation.
- - - Updated - - -
No, I'm not implying it, I am absolutely and positively affirming that has happened over and over in Islamic Countries and the videos I provided are proof of what I'm saying. So yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Did you finally get it???
Are you in denial ??? I showed you a few videos and in some of them they specifically say that "this happens all the time".
I am not that creative to invent things on the fly. I research, study and ask questions.
Thanks for the information but apparently it didn't matter, the rape charge was dismissed and adultery was charged to the foreign woman.
So what is your expert explanation???
She went to the police to claim she had been raped and end up being charged instead with adultery.
OK there is a simple concept that you are missing. Pretty sure it's been said multiple times
I'm going to say it slowly, are you ready?
Stop
Confusing
Islam
And
Muslims
You are blaming Islam for what happens in Muslim countries when the leadership and regime can from the most corrupt on the planet. A good example of this is Iran or syria
Under Islamic law the rapist would be executed. Nothing would happen to the woman
For a guy who thinks he's clever you're a terrible listener actually SubhanAllah you remind me of the verses in the Qurān where Allah talks about setting a seal on the disbelievers hearts
“Allah gave you a gift of 86,000 seconds today, have you used one to say ‘Alhamdulilah"
You are blaming Islam for what happens in Muslim countries
No, I'm not, not intentionally, sometimes it might look like that but let me assure you that I don't think the misjudgments done by the Islamic Justice system are Islam's fault but from the people who are supposed to interpret and implement the regulations.
In the example we've been using, a woman goes to the police to report she's been raped. The police takes her report and from it assumes she is admitting having sex with the rapist. At the end they're charged with adultery and the rape accusation is dismissed.
I don't know enough details about the case and cannot blame Islam but I do know something is wrong.
Justice was not served.
As Muslims I'd like you to tell me what went wrong ???
You know better than me the rules and Islamic procedures.
The possibility that women can be charged with "Adultery or Fornication" after they report being raped makes no sense to me.
A Muslim on another site responded this way:
"Muslim women know better and would never bother pressing charges against the rapist"
That is so wrong, meaning, rape victims have no chance of getting justice.
Who's to blame, I'm not going to make accusations.
You as a Muslim, who do you blame ???
A Muslim on another site responded this way:
"Muslim women know better and would never bother pressing charges against the rapist"
That is so wrong, meaning, rape victims have no chance of getting justice.
Who's to blame, I'm not going to make accusations.
You as a Muslim, who do you blame ???
Would you care to provide us the name of the site and your username?
That way we can get an idea of the questions you've been asking there, doc always prefers a medical history to get a better idea of the patients disease - because his time is precious.
123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
124. Whenever there cometh down a sura, some of them say: "Which of you has had His faith increased by it?" Yea, those who believe,- their faith is increased and they do rejoice.
125. But those in whose hearts is a disease,- it will add doubt to their doubt, and they will die in a state of Unbelief.
126. See they not that they are tried every year once or twice? Yet they turn not in repentance, and they take no heed.
127. Whenever there cometh down a Sura, they look at each other, (saying), "Doth anyone see you?" Then they turn aside: Allah hath turned their hearts (from the light); for they are a people that understand not.
128. Now hath come unto you an Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.
129. But if they turn away, Say: "(Allah) sufficeth me: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!"
Is that an admission that the middle east is full of "unrepentant thieves, scammers, usurers, liars, corrupt politicians, fornicators, adulterers, and sodomites" ???
There are some who are under the influence of corruption - though they are in the minority, and there are many people in America who seek to obey and serve God, and wouldn't take long to migrate once the distinction is clear.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
What gave you the impression that the believers (all denominations, Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc) would accept such a proposal???
People who seek to obey God will choose their place, and people who seek to commit crimes will choose their place.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Especially the non-Muslims, they would beg in their knees not to be sent.
They would be able choose, and the states would be able to exile to the appropriate place.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
The Middle East and Hell Fire don't look too different from here.
That is because the dajjal has confused and blinded you as to the reality of eternity with a wink and an annuit.
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
Yes there has, one example of an exemplary Islamic nation is the Rashidun Khilafah.
I can easily name numerous other empires that got pretty close to being of the same standard, e.g the Shah Mir Sultanate, the Almohad Khilafah and the Mughals under Aurangzeb Alamgir.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Quote
did his best to get it right but it wasn't always perfect as will be demonstrated in the hadith below, and the legislation on the issue continued to develop as the state progressed.
whilst continually evaluating the specific circumstances and amending legislation.
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks