We have all the instructions we need, I am not sure what another prophet could do.
Muslims claim similarly that Islam provides all the rules necessary for the perfect justice system as well as for every day life in general. Many times I heard that the Islamic scriptures provide the solutions for all modern problems.
That's a huge claim to make, now, can you back it up and prove it ?
The answer is "No".
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
I tried to address that claim on one of my "Closed" threads with no convincing answers.None of the more than 50 countries with Muslim majority implements 100% sharia.
How is that possible ? So perfect that not even Muslims dare to adopt it.
My personal opinion is that Muslims know deep inside that those regulations would never work in this modern world.They need to be updated, but how ?
You cannot update and change God's rules with man made ones.
I would love to see an 100% sharia country.
Imaging walking thru the streets and noticing people with missing hands, others missing feet and limbs.
Approaching the park you can witness an adultery stoning.
Further up the street there is a public execution of a gay person, you cover your eyes from the sun because they're going to drop him from a tall building.
Just another day in a perfect world.
How much longer do we have to wait for it ?
Disclaimer: The previous imaginary scenario is based purely on my own research. No disrespect intended.
Yes there has, one example of a perfect Islamic nation is the Rashidun Khilafah.
I can easily name numerous other empires that got pretty close to being a perfect Islamic nation, e.g the Shah Mir Sultanate, the Almohad Khilafah and the Mughals under Aurangzeb Alamgir.
i wouldn't say that any of them - including those of the Prophets were perfect - since perfection is an attribute unique to Allah - and since perfection would mean that nobody makes any mistakes - and the reasoning behind the laws become obsolete.
What is aimed at is a sincere will to do what is best in Allah 's sight -whilst continually learning and improving.
The requirement is to come down heavily on corrupters who lie and seek to thereby misguide others.
An example of a corrupt and criminal system is one which hires internet trolls and spies to hide their allegiances and to confuse people as they are continually bombarded with undeniable falsehood, such as the israeli state - if it was sincere and LEGITIMATE, it's representatives would have stated their allegiances and the fact that they are paid to work p.r , but instead they demonstrate their despicability by continually lying to the people of the planet whilst setting up an empire for rothschild domination.
Bulls**t is used as a catchall term for information that is untrue, unreliable, or will otherwise let you down when push comes to shove.
Bulls**t isn't exactly the same as willful deception, misinformation, or propaganda, although it can and does include those things. Bulls**t is about a narrative operating independently of any*concern for truth.........
There has never been a perfect or close to perfect Islamic State.
Yes there has, one example of an exemplary Islamic nation is the Rashidun Khilafah.
The Rashidun Caliphate is characterized by a twenty-five year period of rapid military expansion, followed by a five-year period of internal strife.
That doesn't sound like a very harmonious and peaceful place, doesn't it?
Shah Mir SultanateCouldn't find telling information
Aurangzeb cancelled eighty taxes and reimposed jizya on non-Muslims which was cancelled by his ancestors.Aurangzeb acted boldly upon the Islamic commandments and therefore eliminated the idolatrous festivals, such as Nowruz celebrations. He banned lengthy eulogies at the time of attendance at court and allowed only the Islamic greeting of salam. Likewise he banned the import of liquor and drove out musicians and singers from the court. Following 1725 the empire declined rapidly, weakened by wars of succession, agrarian crises fueling local revolts, the growth of religious intolerance, the rise of Maratha Empire as well as Durrani Empire and Sikh Empire, and finally British colonialism. The last king, Bahadur Zafar Shah II, whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi, was imprisoned and exiled by the British after the Indian Rebellion of 1857.
Not very impressed, I must say.Any western country today might be a better place to live than any of those but that is just me saying it.
The Rashidun Caliphate is characterized by a twenty-five year period of rapid military expansion, followed by a five-year period of internal strife.
That doesn't sound like a very harmonious and peaceful place, doesn't it?
Shah Mir SultanateCouldn't find telling information
Aurangzeb cancelled eighty taxes and reimposed jizya on non-Muslims which was cancelled by his ancestors.Aurangzeb acted boldly upon the Islamic commandments and therefore eliminated the idolatrous festivals, such as Nowruz celebrations. He banned lengthy eulogies at the time of attendance at court and allowed only the Islamic greeting of salam. Likewise he banned the import of liquor and drove out musicians and singers from the court. Following 1725 the empire declined rapidly, weakened by wars of succession, agrarian crises fueling local revolts, the growth of religious intolerance, the rise of Maratha Empire as well as Durrani Empire and Sikh Empire, and finally British colonialism. The last king, Bahadur Zafar Shah II, whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi, was imprisoned and exiled by the British after the Indian Rebellion of 1857.
Not very impressed, I must say.Any western country today might be a better place to live than any of those but that is just me saying it.
Your Western world is no better than any place out there on Earth. You have this great illusion that for some apparent reason a utopia on Earth is possible and there will be a real paradise on Earth. Impossible. There can never be true perfection on Earth. There can never be paradise on Earth..just impossible. Even if such task where feasible that is for the disbelievers only...paradise on Earth...pure utopia is for the disbelievers only and not for Muslims. For us Muslims this world is a prison..jail cell....behind bars with shackles on our legs. We the Muslim are striving to have the highest level of paradise Insha'Allah in the afterlife...we are not suppose to build here and leave the other life..that role of building here only is the job of the disbelievers and hypocrites...that is what they are here to do. Camp their life here and be happy here in this world...you can have your Western utopia world Raymann I am leaving to the imperfect world you are talking about soon..Insha'Allah.
I don't want nothing to do with this utopia world for me thanks...I am intending to strive to build for the afterlife...and not this world.
Another thing:
As long as you paying your taxes to your master Raymann you can be the cow that can herd on the field and be productive to your master...you can go mooooo and poop and piss and eat the grass and sit on your large field and jump up and down happily in your delusional world and go moooo all you want for your master, who own you and will benefit from your productivity...as for me......I am out of this world.
There is one dilema, every Muslim woman that is raped, would not even bother pressing charges against the rapist.
Why ? As you mention, to prove adultery 4 witnesses are needed (very unlikely possibility) but pressing charges against a rapist is admitting adultery. So I don't see how justice is accomplished here. Men know very well the rules and I'm pretty sure they're taking full advantage of the flaws.
Another problem are foreign women who don't dress appropriately to Islamic standards, they get raped all the time and by not knowing the rules they press charges and get charged with adultery.
Lucky for them 100% sharia is not implemented so they pay with a few years in jail. Totally unfair.
Bottom line, the statistics might say there is very low crime rate but reality is a total different thing.
I already answered this on the very first thread you started here, the one about "rape culture", yet here you keep saying exactly the same thing as then.
Not sure why anyone should engage you if you will just keep pushing the same predetermined propaganda talking points, and ignore any answers that don't create a rhetorical opening for you to advance whatever agenda you might have.
As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery.
On what grounds would the women be charged with adultery and why would the man admit to adultery when the punishment is so harsh? what other proofs are there breaking and entering? messages of a continues relationship, DNA past crimes etc. Like any court of law there has to be evidence to convict someone.
- - - Updated - - -
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Do you risk your daughter's life by trusting Islamic Justice???
On what grounds?
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
or go the safe rout and forget this ever happened???
how is that safe? the rapist would probably go on like it does in India and powerful men like Savile in the UK.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Raymann "As a Muslim, what would you do if one day getting home you find your daughter being raped?
You are the only witness, the rapist won't admit and your daughter risks being charged with adultery.
To make things worse you live in a country that enforces stoning to death as the penalty for adultery".
Let's try again. When a woman reports rape has been committed against her the police is going to assume she is confessing having unlawful sex with the rapist. No need to prove adultery when she has already confessed. Get it ??
The case continues as usual. In most cases rape is not going to be proved. (statistics show is very difficult to prove rape)
Here's the problem.
The woman has already confessed having unlawful sex with the rapist. There's no need for witnesses nor proof.
This is what's been happening to foreign women while in islamic countries.
So what would you do as a Muslim?
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format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
I already answered this on the very first thread you started here, the one about "rape culture", yet here you keep saying exactly the same thing as then.
And I salute you for your response in that thread. Yours was the best answer I had so far, but this is part of what you said:
but a not-guilty verdict for rape doesn't result in an automatic guilty verdict for adultery.
That is partially true, the fact is that a woman reporting rape is automatically admitting unlawful sex with the rapist.
It's up to the prosecutors if they want to charge the woman with adultery or fornication, they already have her confession so no need for witnesses nor proof, easy case.
That's the huge flaw nobody seems to like talking about.
I guess all I want is to hear someone admitting there's a problem here and foreign women are the ones paying for it.
Let's try again. When a woman reports rape has been committed against her the police is going to assume she is confessing having unlawful sex with the rapist. No need to prove adultery when she has already confessed. Get it ??
The case continues as usual. In most cases rape is not going to be proved. (statistics show is very difficult to prove rape)
Here's the problem.
The woman has already confessed having unlawful sex with the rapist. There's no need for witnesses nor proof.
This is what's been happening to foreign women while in islamic countries.
So what would you do as a Muslim?
- - - Updated - - -
And I salute you for your response in that thread. Yours was the best answer I had so far, but this is part of what you said:
That is partially true, the fact is that a woman reporting rape is automatically admitting unlawful sex with the rapist.
It's up to the prosecutors if they want to charge the woman with adultery or fornication, they already have her confession so no need for witnesses nor proof, easy case.
That's the huge flaw nobody seems to like talking about.
I guess all I want is to hear someone admitting there's a problem here and foreign women are the ones paying for it.
Well anyone who is leaving their country and going to foreign place must be ready for what they receive in that place. They need to study the laws and regulations and obey them correctly without objection much like Western world require strangers who come to their place to obey their laws, don't you agree? So a foreign women who want to avoid any problem observe the dress code of the native women in there and wear them themselves. If anything...it is a form of respect to the country you are entering in. Whether YOU believe that is women oppression or not...that is irrelevant what you believe....you come to a foreign country and you don't respect the laws, religion and culture of that country and then when something wrong happens you come back and attack the country and say it is defective and Western world is the way to go only shows how arrogant you are.
Let us say for example...in your county a person breaking into someone's home will result for you to be shot and killed and that is the law in your country...so I go ahead and break into your home in your country and I got shot and killed and then do a stink about how this is unfair and how there is issue for people who go ahead and break into people's homes and how they got shot instead of going to court and be trailed that way....I mean......
Foreign women coming to Islamic country wearing in bikini and expect to walk in the street as if she is walking in new york and the native people of their own country must give away just because she is western and not expect her to get harmed in anyway and we are suppose to what...say there is something wrong with Islamic law and we have to fight for foreign women's right and issues in Islamic country and the Islamic countries my kowtow to her lager for her to do whatever she wants just because she is foreign women? She comes to Muslim country she covers her body...please. Cover her hair...please. Don't be dancing on the street and pretend she is a man so she can do whatever her heart desires as if she is in USA. She wants to be a man and rip her shirt open and pound fist on her chest and go Aaaaawwwww like tarzan she can do that in USA, not in Islamic country please.
Foreign women coming to Islamic country wearing in bikini and expect to walk in the street as if she is walking in new york and the native people of their own country must give away just because she is western and not expect her to get harmed in anyway
Keep avoiding my main point, It's ok, I'll get you one way or another.
First of all, you're assuming foreign women are getting raped because they're not complying with Islamic dress code.
Yes, that might be truth, they have that crazy idea that Islamic Countries are not jungles and that people are not animals.
What were they thinking???
To my main point:
The fact is that women run the risk of being charged with adultery every time they press charges against a rapist.
A RAPE CHARGE CAN EASILY TURN INTO AN ADULTERY CONVICTION.
As I explained this is because the police assumes they have admitted unlawful sex when they reported the rape case.
THIS IS THE CASE FOR FOREIGNERS AS WELL AS FOR MUSLIM WOMEN.
The dress code is not and excuse here.
One more time:
Don't you think is unfair that women risk being charged with adultery when reporting rape???
Is that something the Muslim community cares about???
I've been talking about it and even today I noticed some Muslims don't know what I'm talking about.
Many Muslims get mad I keep talking about it and want me to shut up, why???
That is partially true, the fact is that a woman reporting rape is automatically admitting unlawful sex with the rapist.
No, she isn't. She is "admitting" to having been raped, which is not unlawful for her, just for him. If the trial ends up inconclusively and neither rape nor consensual sex is proven, she should not be convicted. Why don't you conduct a little poll to find out that pretty much every Muslim would agree that that's how it's supposed to work?
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
I guess all I want is to hear someone admitting there's a problem here and foreign women are the ones paying for it.
Dude, pretty much everyone here recognizes that such miscarriages of justice do happen. What pretty much everyone is saying is that they are due to judicial corruption, not due to sharia working like it's supposed to, but you just won't take that for an answer.
I can tell you 100s of different reasons why but the bottom-line of all is that the Universe and whatever is between them the Galaxies, Multiple universes etc etc and everything belongs to the one who legislates the Sharia-Law itself hence why it's a divine law not a man made law or something someone came with from his own pocket. There is not a single creature alive that he has not created and breathe soul into.
Are we saying we know better then the one who creates everything and also ourselves? The answer is no and anyone who says otherwise is nothing but being unjust and foolish towards himself.
That's basically the bottom-line. We are placed here by a higher authority and we didn't come here by ourselves and that higher power has a legislation to mankind.
The best help I can give you first is since you don't believe in one god then I suggest you leave all empty disscussions and go seek this creator and if you put your heart to finding him you may find him and the truth and that is if you are sincere he will guide you towards the truth insha-allah.
We are talking about an inter-galatic lord and the one who provides all energy to the universe and stars. I could go one days describing him in glorification but I won't reach it with him nor being able to even round little about the amount of praise his worth
Last edited by urkahnkhan; 09-24-2018 at 08:50 AM.
This troll is attempting to claim something along the lines of: 'if you claim you got injected by a drug dealer, and you can't prove it, then you risk being arrested for being under the influence'.
Or if you voluntarily go to the police with a pack of drugs and claim that it belongs to a drug dealer, you might be charged with posession if they can't prove that the person is a dealer.
Well, the merits of the case would need to be looked into and judged justly in God's sight.
The Rashidun Caliphate is characterized by a twenty-five year period of rapid military expansion, followed by a five-year period of internal strife.
That doesn't sound like a very harmonious and peaceful place, doesn't it?
The first 25 years sounds pretty good for us. For our enemies, not so much but I couldn't care less about the barbaric Sassanids or Byzantines.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Aurangzeb cancelled eighty taxes and reimposed jizya on non-Muslims which was cancelled by his ancestors.Aurangzeb acted boldly upon the Islamic commandments and therefore eliminated the idolatrous festivals, such as Nowruz celebrations. He banned lengthy eulogies at the time of attendance at court and allowed only the Islamic greeting of salam. Likewise he banned the import of liquor and drove out musicians and singers from the court.
Exactly, he was an excellent Islamic leader.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Following 1725 the empire declined rapidly, weakened by wars of succession, agrarian crises fueling local revolts, the growth of religious intolerance, the rise of Maratha Empire as well as Durrani Empire and Sikh Empire, and finally British colonialism. The last king, Bahadur Zafar Shah II, whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi, was imprisoned and exiled by the British after the Indian Rebellion of 1857.
Aurangzeb Alamgir died in 1707, which was a significant amount of time before 1725. The empire declined because of his incompetent successors, not because of him.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
Not very impressed, I must say.Any western country today might be a better place to live than any of those but that is just me saying it.
Your opinion is subjective, and you didn't ask for a country following Western principles, you asked for one following Islamic principles. I gave you several examples. Therefore, your original post has been proven incorrect.
Let's try again. When a woman reports rape has been committed against her the police is going to assume she is confessing having unlawful sex with the rapist. No need to prove adultery when she has already confessed. Get it ??
No you need to learn the difference between rape, adultery - assumption is made that she has been raped and the courts decide on evidence if its rape.
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
The case continues as usual. In most cases rape is not going to be proved. (statistics show is very difficult to prove rape)
true
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
The woman has already confessed having unlawful sex with the rapist. There's no need for witnesses nor proof.
How can you have consensual sex with a rapist?
format_quote Originally Posted by Raymann
This is what's been happening to foreign women while in Islamic countries.
3 strange cases in very different countries not exactly a big pool of evidence.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
The first 25 years sounds pretty good for us. For our enemies, not so much but I couldn't care less about the barbaric Sassanids or Byzantines.
Oh, so that's what you understood when I asked, where is the perfect Islamic country ??
You thought I was looking for a perfect country ONLY FOR MUSLIMS, the rest don't matter, you couldn't care less.
In that case you don't need to wait long, there are already some groups that can accomodate you.
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format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
How can you have consensual sex with a rapist?
EXACTLY, why don't you explain that to the Islamic Police who over and over and over fail to understand it.
Oh, so that's what you understood when I asked, where is the perfect Islamic country ??
You thought I was looking for a perfect country ONLY FOR MUSLIMS, the rest don't matter, you couldn't care less.
In that case you don't need to wait long, there are already some groups that can accomodate you.
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EXACTLY, why don't you explain that to the Islamic Police who over and over and over fail to understand it.
putting a video of a roman woman will not shed me tears..when your soldiers have raped our women, children and boys . Before you make us feel sympathetic for an atheist women, christian women or jewish women...why don't you go ahead and stop your country from raping our women, girls and boys? Hmmm...
Better yet...go ahead and use your media to stop usa and other non-Muslim countries from killing us and taking our resources.....show us you really care for humanity regardless of their religion...start there. Coming to here and making us feel guilty about rape of your womenfolk....ARE YOU SERIOUS?? Rape is haraam...regardless of religion...I am not denying that...but I don't see you stopping our people from suffering....discuss that first....do that first..
Last edited by xboxisdead; 09-25-2018 at 05:00 AM.
putting a video of a roman woman will not shed me tears..when your soldiers have raped our women, children and boys . Before you make us feel sympathetic for an atheist women, christian women or jewish women...why don't you go ahead and stop your country from raping our women, girls and boys? Hmmm...
So let me understand you:
Since westerners have raped Muslim women in the past we will not care nor feel sorry for western women been raped by Muslims.
format_quote Originally Posted by xboxisdead
I don't see you stopping our people from suffering....discuss that first....do that first..
You ungrateful piece of ----. Europe and America have been taking millions of Muslims who in some cases swim their way to the west asking for the help Muslims Countries in many cases denies them. Are you aware that many Muslim Countries won't take any Muslim refugees no matter how desperate the situation. Europe give them homes, social benefits and money every month.
That doesn't count as "stopping our people from suffering"? So you're not going to thank us for that??
What are you doing for the Christian communities that are being attacked in Egypt and many other Muslim countries??
People like you give a bad name to the rest of Muslims.
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were perfect - since perfection is an attribute unique to Allah 
- and since perfection would mean that nobody makes any mistakes - and the reasoning behind the laws become obsolete.
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