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    Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed? (OP)


    I just found a passage from Quran saying something that, "whoever believes that Quran is created, has committed disbelief". I was thinking that Islamic sharia is created by God and not by humans. So, what I think is still disbelief? Does that mean, these Islamic sharia which we know, always existed and had no beginning nor end?

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    Not unless he can implement Sharia.
    on what basis you are saying this...?

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    on what basis you are saying this...?
    On what basis do you think it's okay to rule by other than Sharia?

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    Not unless he can implement Sharia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    On what basis do you think it's okay to rule by other than Sharia?
    I am not making any claim but you and according to Islamic rulings claimant has to prove his claim with evidences.

    Ibn ‘Abbas (RadhiyAllahu ‘anhu) said that the Messenger of Allah (SallaAllahu ‘alayhi wasalalm) said:

    Were people to be given according to their claims, some would claim the wealth and blood of others. But the burden of proof is upon the claimant and the taking of an oath is upon the one who denies (the allegation).

    (A hasan hadith which al-Bayhaqi and others have related. Parts of it is in Bukhari and Muslim)

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    I am not making any claim but you and according to Islamic rulings claimant has to prove his claim with evidences.
    My claim is the standard one, yours is the weird one. Why do you think it isn't compulsory to rule by Sharia?
    | Likes ZeeshanParvez liked this post

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    My claim is the standard one, yours is the weird one. Why do you think it isn't compulsory to rule by Sharia?
    So you've no proof....!

    Most important point is that Islamic rulings and teachings are applied to Muslims, not to kafir.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    So you've no proof....!
    The fact that you're such an experienced member and are genuinely questioning whether or not Muslims have to rule by Sharia is really quite baffling:

    http://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/384...s-for-judgment

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/2825...-usool-al-fiqh

    Islam web - English Fatwa | Articles | Quran Recitation | Prayer Times | News
    Islamweb - the largest Islamic and cultural content on the Internet for the users contain fatwa, quran, articles , fiqh , lectures , prayer times , about islam etc...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Most important point is that Islamic rulings and teachings are applied to Muslims, not to kafir.
    When did I say otherwise?

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    My claim is the standard one, yours is the weird one. Why do you think it isn't compulsory to rule by Sharia?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    The fact that you're such an experienced member and are genuinely questioning whether or not Muslims have to rule by Sharia is really quite baffling:

    http://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/384...s-for-judgment

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/2825...-usool-al-fiqh

    Islam web - English Fatwa | Articles | Quran Recitation | Prayer Times | News
    Islamweb - the largest Islamic and cultural content on the Internet for the users contain fatwa, quran, articles , fiqh , lectures , prayer times , about islam etc...

    - - - Updated - - -



    When did I say otherwise?
    Most important point of islamization of Muslim countries instead of non Muslim countries is often forgotten.

    It wonders me to see the scholars who promptly issues fatwas never dare to ask their rulers to break their friendship with non Muslim countries but reality is before us. And most of them are silent and meek before their rulers.

    Double standard is against Islamic teachings.

    Quoted fatwas have nothing to do with this issue is being discussed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    US dictating Saudi religious policy

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Most important point of islamization of Muslim countries instead of non Muslim countries is often forgotten.
    Again, what has that got to do with anything I said? All I said was Muslims cannot work for any government institution that doesn't rule by Sharia and that we must abide by Sharia ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    It wonders me to see the scholars who promptly issues fatwas never dare to ask their rulers to break their friendship with non Muslim countries
    I don't think you read many fatwas.

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Double standard is against Islamic teachings.
    Oh the irony!

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Quoted fatwas have nothing to do with this issue is being discussed.
    No, your points have nothing to do with what is being discussed. I spoke about how Muslims are obliged to abide by Sharia, you either didn't believe me or misunderstood what I said, I provided evidence, and then you went on some Tablighi Jamaat rant about cleaning up our own house first. There is no strong correlation between my point and yours.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    Again, what has that got to do with anything I said? All I said was Muslims cannot work for any government institution that doesn't rule by Sharia and that we must abide by Sharia ourselves.



    I don't think you read many fatwas.



    Oh the irony!



    No, your points have nothing to do with what is being discussed. I spoke about how Muslims are obliged to abide by Sharia, you either didn't believe me or misunderstood what I said, I provided evidence, and then you went on some Tablighi Jamaat rant about cleaning up our own house first. There is no strong correlation between my point and yours.
    Read your quoted fatwas again, I reiterate these fatwas have nothing to do with ''a Muslim can't be a ruler of a non Muslim country''

    fatwa of islamweb:
    is the answer of

    ''Does going to non-sharia courts in the presence of sharia courts take one out of the folds of Islam if it is done out of disobedience?''

    and fatwa of islamqa is about:

    ''What is the difference between fiqh and sharia and what is usool ul fiqh?''

    can you give ONLY ONE specific dalil from shariah...?
    If no, then it's of no use to discuss this topic further.

    I don't follow scholars blindly.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Read your quoted fatwas again, I reiterate these fatwas have nothing to do with ''a Muslim can't be a ruler of a non Muslim country''
    They clearly state that a Muslim must rule by Sharia. If a country doesn't rule by Sharia, then being a part of it's government would clearly be haram unless you are able to change it's legislation to actually abide by Sharia. This is an easy deduction that anyone with an IQ of above 70 should be able to figure out.

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    ''Does going to non-sharia courts in the presence of sharia courts take one out of the folds of Islam if it is done out of disobedience?''

    and fatwa of islamqa is about:

    ''What is the difference between fiqh and sharia and what is usool ul fiqh?''
    Learn to actually read fatwas themselves rather than just looking at their titles.

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    can you give ONLY ONE specific dalil from shariah...?
    I gave you evidence, and I'll give you more:

    https://islamqa.info/en/answers/1071...in-that-system

    Since you don't seem to read the fatwas I provide, I'll give you some of the relevant information present in the above link:

    "It is not permissible for a Muslim to nominate himself in the hope that he can become part of a system which rules according to something other than that which Allaah has revealed and operates according to something other than the sharee’ah of Islam. It is not permissible for a Muslim to vote for him or for anyone else who will work in that government, unless the one who nominates himself or those who vote for him hope that by getting involved in that they will be able to change the system to one that operates according to the sharee’ah of Islam, and they are using this as a means to overcome the system of government, provided that the one who nominates himself will not accept any position after being elected except one that does not go against Islamic sharee’ah."
    Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh ‘Abd al-Razzaaq ‘Afeefi, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qa’ood.
    Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (23/406, 407)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    I don't follow scholars blindly.
    Again, that's a totally different discussion. The fatwas I provided gave evidence for their conclusions, which is more than what you can do for yours.

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    M.I.A.'s Avatar
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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro Zeus View Post
    I just found a passage from Quran saying something that, "whoever believes that Quran is created, has committed disbelief". I was thinking that Islamic sharia is created by God and not by humans. So, what I think is still disbelief? Does that mean, these Islamic sharia which we know, always existed and had no beginning nor end?
    "I was thinking that Islamic sharia is created by God and not by humans. So, what I think is still disbelief?"

    "whoever believes that Quran is created, has committed disbelief"

    ..if you believe that the quran is created by allah swt then thats perfectly in line with what is expected from you. if you imply something else then you are probably wrong.


    "Does that mean, these Islamic sharia which we know, always existed and had no beginning nor end?"

    ...well, my western studies are in science.. scientific laws have always been, they will always be.. but our understanding changes as time passes, where that leads us or what becomes of us is a whole different subject.

    waiting for another one that can split sea's?



    ..well..

    whos going to tell him where to hit his staff?


    that was a joke...but.. (pbuh)

    if you think you or i are the enforcers of sharia, then maybe you are mistaken.

    to me it imposes itself, if i deviate i feel the effects of deviating in my life, in my tongue.. in my action.. in my family..

    it wasnt always like this, for a long time i did not see or think or feel.

    i have no idea what i did, which may still be the case..


    the masses move by his will, they are where they are and they do what they do by his permission.

    but my character leads me to what i am.


    even if we all read the book, we will contemplate on things which we relate to.. commit to memory those verses we relate too.. and they will probably be different for all of us.

    but you cant really change peoples opinions, because everyone thinks they have the right way.


    who will protect you from the world? or the world from you?


    its extremely simple, you live your life just like everybody else.

    but if you make claim of being guided or wanting to guide.. of imposing law..


    then fear allah swt.

    he is the protector, the provider and so many things more than that.



    if the implementation of sharia law across the world were that easy then, it would have been done already.

    as it is, allah swt is far cleverer than we could ever claim to be.


    it is a circular argument i suppose.


    but at this stage i feel sharia law is imposed by allah swt.

    im not in any position to fight what happens, but rather i try to avoid slipping or falling foul to mischief.


    you may be different.


    but i suppose the rules are the same.
    Last edited by M.I.A.; 01-06-2019 at 09:32 PM.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    @Alamgir :

    I asked you specific dalil from Quran and hadith and you quoted fatwas of scholars which , invariably, are based on subjectivity. If you are blind followers of fatwas of scholars then why you neglect these following fatwas:

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    (Fatwa: 1176/149=B/1429)

    India is not an Islamic country but it is a democratic and secular country. Hence it is out of place to look its politics in Islamic perspective and test the parties and political leaders on the principles of the Quran and Hadith. This method would bring nothing except disturbance and confusion. However, one should vote to the party and leader who is better in the favour of Muslims and the country. The status of vote is as testimony and witness; so it is the responsibility of every Muslim should utilize it as much as possible correctly. The vote should not be kept back.

    Allah knows Best!

    Darul Ifta,
    Darul Uloom Deoband
    http://www.darulifta-deoband.com/hom...Relations/5024

    ''In conclusion, voting is not something that is impermissible.''
    https://islamqa.org/hanafi/darulifta...0%2C5138483607
    Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Allah (swt) knows best

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    I asked you specific dalil from Quran and hadith and you quoted fatwas of scholars which , invariably, are based on subjectivity.
    No they're not, they give clear-cut evidence and their position can be pretty easily deduced if you read the Quran and Sunnah in detail.

    “And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).
    50. Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith”
    [al-Maa'idah 5:49-50].
    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    why you neglect these following fatwas:
    Again, you're showing that you clearly haven't paid attention to what I said. I said it is haram for Muslims to work for a government that does not rule by Sharia unless they are able to implement Sharia within that government. Voting has nothing to do with what I said.

    Either deal with my point or just stop wasting my time with your red herrings.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post
    No they're not, they give clear-cut evidence and their position can be pretty easily deduced if you read the Quran and Sunnah in detail.

    “And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allaah has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allaah has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allaah’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Faasiqoon (rebellious and disobedient to Allaah).
    50. Do they then seek the judgement of (the days of) Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith”
    [al-Maa'idah 5:49-50].


    Again, you're showing that you clearly haven't paid attention to what I said. I said it is haram for Muslims to work for a government that does not rule by Sharia unless they are able to implement Sharia within that government. Voting has nothing to do with what I said.

    Either deal with my point or just stop wasting my time with your red herrings.
    then don't waste your time.

    But keep in mind:

    quoted ayat have nothing to do with your claim

    If ever ever you discuss any topic with me GIVE THE SPECIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR CLAIM.

    Else no need to waste my time in future.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    quoted ayat have nothing to do with your claim


    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    GIVE THE SPECIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR CLAIM.
    I gave you multiple pieces of evidence from reputable scholars who provided ayat to back their fatawa that Muslims must abide by Sharia, and that to do otherwise is haram.

    You gave me two completely random Imams, both of which only said voting is halal.

    Not only did you not give a source anywhere near as reputable as mine, but your source also didn't contradict my point. I think it's best you save yourself from further embarrassment and stop replying.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alamgir View Post




    I gave you multiple pieces of evidence from reputable scholars who provided ayat to back their fatawa that Muslims must abide by Sharia, and that to do otherwise is haram.

    You gave me two completely random Imams, both of which only said voting is halal.

    Not only did you not give a source anywhere near as reputable as mine, but your source also didn't contradict my point. I think it's best you save yourself from further embarrassment and stop replying.
    You should learn what the definition of specific dalil is.

    If quoted Quranic ayat or ahadith don't discuss any particular issue isn't considered as specific dalil, maximum it can be taken as an implication.

    Every Muslim has to abide by Islamic shariah within his individual capacity. Who can deny it..?


    Fatwa of scholars is merely their opinion, so here reliability is more important than reputability.

    According to fatwas of some scholars Democracy is kufr, voting is shirk but this kufr and shirk become halal if a Muslim becomes a ruler of a democratic non Muslim state, intends to change the whole system, implement shariah in the state....????

    Interesting thing is that some of the people who are subjected to indoctrination take it as real....

    Muslims who live in a non Muslim country are facing a lot of problems but this fatwa shopping increases the problems for this ummah- more and more, and blind followers spreading it on internet, causing mockery of Islam.
    Last edited by azc; 01-08-2019 at 08:45 AM.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Fatwa of scholars is merely their opinion, so here reliability is more important than reputability.
    Yes, just like the incorrect Fataawaa on aqiidah you posted in this thread. Good to know you have come to realize your mistake.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Yes, just like the incorrect Fataawaa on aqiidah you posted in this thread. Good to know you have come to realize your mistake.
    It's not the fatwa, was an article. It's an comprehensive answer to your objections, whether or not you accept is your personal matter.

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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    yes Islamic sharya really created by Allah for human beings
    Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?


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    Re: Is Islamic sharia really created by Allah? Or always existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    If quoted Quranic ayat or ahadith don't discuss any particular issue isn't considered as specific dalil, maximum it can be taken as an implication.

    Every Muslim has to abide by Islamic shariah within his individual capacity. Who can deny it..?

    According to fatwas of some scholars Democracy is kufr, voting is shirk but this kufr and shirk become halal if a Muslim becomes a ruler of a democratic non Muslim state, intends to change the whole system, implement shariah in the state....????
    .

    The quoted ayat clearly refer to the issue.

    If you don't deny that Muslims must abide by Sharia, then why are you arguing with me? That's literally what I said.

    No, not abiding by Sharia doesn't suddenly become halal if you want to establish Sharia (the ends don't justify the means). Muslims can only work for a government if all aspects of it that don't contradict Sharia are removed, and then they must implement Sharia (unless it's already implemented). If that's not possible then a Muslim should stay out of the government and it's affairs.


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