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  1. #1
    beleiver's Avatar
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    Consensus of Scholars?

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    If a Muslim follows the consensus of scholars rather than their own better judgment and common sense from their own direct guidance from prayer, devotion to Allah that is the source of all Truth, how is that not shirk?

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    *charisma*'s Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Are you a quranist?
    Consensus of Scholars?

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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by beleiver View Post
    If a Muslim follows the consensus of scholars rather than their own better judgment and common sense from their own direct guidance from prayer, devotion to Allah that is the source of all Truth, how is that not shirk?
    It depends on the issue - if its a clear and definitive or not - would you elaborate further what issues you have to see where your coming from? the basis of it is the Quran and sunnah and one needs to understand and interpret the Quran and sunnah - so it depends if one has the tools to do so
    Last edited by Zafran; 03-29-2019 at 12:28 AM.
    Consensus of Scholars?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    beleiver's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Not strictly a Quranist, I find wisdom and immense knowledge in the Sunnah and listening to scholars but above all else, guidance to the path and help me determine Truth from falsehoods comes from Allah alone...

    I just get the feeling over the years scholars have invented rules, taken words out of context and generally dogmatized Islam into something it was never supposed to be...

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    ZeeshanParvez's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by beleiver View Post
    If a Muslim follows the consensus of scholars rather than their own better judgment and common sense from their own direct guidance from prayer, devotion to Allah that is the source of all Truth, how is that not shirk?

    Going by your false premise how is following your own judgement any different from shirk?

    Second, devotion to Allaah does not mean He will inspire you with answers.

    He has sent down the Book and the guidance of the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) which are to be followed.

    And it is in the Qur'aan where it says


    And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the believers - We will give him what he has taken and drive him into Hell, and evil it is as a destination.

    [Qur'aan 4:115]


    The Qur'aan mentions following the way of the believers!


    Concentrate on that.


    The way of the believers.

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    *charisma*'s Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by beleiver View Post
    Not strictly a Quranist, I find wisdom and immense knowledge in the Sunnah and listening to scholars but above all else, guidance to the path and help me determine Truth from falsehoods comes from Allah alone...

    I just get the feeling over the years scholars have invented rules, taken words out of context and generally dogmatized Islam into something it was never supposed to be...
    And what is it that you envision Islam to be? Which scholars are you speaking about, what is it that is taken out of context?

    Everything you've said so far is based on your emotions, opinions, whims... not concrete knowledge. You cannot refuse such an important aspect of Islam, an aspect BASED on years of extensive knowledge and consider yourself more knowledgable.

    What I suspect is that you've dabbled in things which majority of scholars rule as haram, and you are against that because you've found benefit in these things. For them to rule it out as haram means that it ruins your comforts of living. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    | Likes xboxisdead, AbdurRahman. liked this post
    Consensus of Scholars?

    D e a t h

    is the easiest
    of all things after it
    ; ;

    the hardest
    of all things before it

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    beleiver's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    It depends on the issue - if its a clear and definitive or not - would you elaborate further what issues you have to see where your coming from? the basis of it is the Quran and sunnah and one needs to understand and interpret the Quran and sunnah - so it depends if one has the tools to do so
    There are many issues that I might encompass by saying modern Islam has taken the joy out of life, I get how pleasures and enjoyment of this life can distract us from our duties and can lead us astray, to commit sin, but is joy in its self a sin?

    I will take music as an example, the word music in any context other than pleasure is not in the Quran...

    Laughter is not as i am aware in the Quran but hadiths say laughter can make the heart hard like stone, but context is everything...Laughing for the wrong reasons, uncontrollably can, of course harden the heart and Music and pleasures can be sinful
    and can make one stray from the path...But nowhere does God say all music and laughter is sinful...He doesn't even directly mention it, its someone else's interpretation...
    Another is medicine, it seems Islam has committed immense shirk in line with Kuffar war on drugs, the word intoxicant is way to broad a term, wherein Islamic context it only references alcohol, yet all intoxicants that just happen to be the ones banned by the Kuffar? Stinks like worst than shirk to me...And Allhas word is so perfect, khamr the root of the word to cover implies to me which substances to stay away from but scholars dont see this or are they simply ignorant? they ban the good things and permit the bad..are they even aware of Allah's blessings?

    The Quran does say though taking his word out of context, innovating, changing his word and adding to it makes the heart hard like stone and not to commit shirk, its the very basis of Islam and one thing that is clear from the start, He alone we worship, He alone we ask for help, so guide us on the straight path, not the path of those that are astray...

    I struggle to believe if Islam is mans instinctive natural state of being, all harmonic sounds, laughter, joy and pleasure is a sin...I just see so many depressed people on these forums, why?

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    beleiver's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by *charisma* View Post
    And what is it that you envision Islam to be? Which scholars are you speaking about, what is it that is taken out of context?

    Everything you've said so far is based on your emotions, opinions, whims... not concrete knowledge. You cannot refuse such an important aspect of Islam, an aspect BASED on years of extensive knowledge and consider yourself more knowledgable.

    What I suspect is that you've dabbled in things which majority of scholars rule as haram, and you are against that because you've found benefit in these things. For them to rule it out as haram means that it ruins your comforts of living. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Truth, I envision Islam to be the Truth and its the Truth that will set us free, free from oppression and falsehood, the closer to the Truth the closer to Islam, without Truth there can be no justice, without justice there can be no Islam...

    My knowledge comes from my life's experience, my struggle and my search for Truth...I ask Allah to help me and guide me, Him and Him alone...And that above all else is what I trust...
    Its pure folly in this life to blindly trust people i know nothing about and not expect to be deceived and lead astray...Isn't that one good reason why shirk is forbidden?

    And like to add, a comment i forgot to add to Zaffrans reply, blessed are we in this day and age to have every hadith Sunna and holy book at our fingertips where we can search word by word through many thousands of pages, read every history of the entire age in easy to find place so easy we don't need to leave our chair, its mind boggling the tools available to seekers of Truth...Allahmdullaha

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    beleiver's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    How can my judgment be shirk, I pray to Allah for guidance, its between me and him...no other gods, no partners, intermediaries...If I get it wrong and he doesn't hear me or guide me how can that be shirk?

    Great point one i wanted to raise, in following the way of believers...All Muslims I have met and opened up to in real life are great people and would follow in their ways, they warned me about corruption in Islam and their Islam can not be corrupted like Christianity was corrupted, and can not be used as a tool of the oppressor...I understand it now, when believers reject shirk they reject oppression and corruption...

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    Saira Khan's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by *charisma* View Post
    What I suspect is that you've dabbled in things which majority of scholars rule as haram, and you are against that because you've found benefit in these things. For them to rule it out as haram means that it ruins your comforts of living. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    You have pointed out a very good aspect, majority of the people are into that.

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    xboxisdead's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by *charisma* View Post
    And what is it that you envision Islam to be? Which scholars are you speaking about, what is it that is taken out of context?

    Everything you've said so far is based on your emotions, opinions, whims... not concrete knowledge. You cannot refuse such an important aspect of Islam, an aspect BASED on years of extensive knowledge and consider yourself more knowledgable.

    What I suspect is that you've dabbled in things which majority of scholars rule as haram, and you are against that because you've found benefit in these things. For them to rule it out as haram means that it ruins your comforts of living. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    BRAVO!! You hit the nail in the coffin! 100%

    One can say that 98% of the Atheist, disbelievers KNOW 1000000% THAT ISLAM is the truth and there is only one true God and Allah is the one and only true God they know it but if they believe and follow Qura'an and Sunnah how can they fulfill their carnal desires of stealing, backbiting, zina, power, wealth, greed, domination, oppression, hypocrisy, fulfilling your wordily desires...how can you do that when Allah tells you:

    A) No Fornication.
    B) No backbiting
    C) Protect your tongue.
    D) Every year you have to fast
    E) Fast a lot
    F) No Zina
    G) No oppression
    H) Give from your wealth to the needy
    ...
    ...
    ...

    The list continues. If those who seek dunaya and follow those rules they will feel confined and be in prison...they will feel restricted. You mean I cannot talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and talk and destroy someone's reputation and do false allegation against someone? You mean I cannot watch pornography? You mean I cannot use swear words? You mean I have to obey my parents? You mean I cannot listen to music? You mean I cannot be rude to my elders? You mean.........the list continues.........

    You mean I cannot have comfort in dunaya....and so on....

    100% of all societal diseases and issues and ailments and millions of people who got hurt physically, psychologically, emotionally whether it be a man who is the victim or woman who is the victim is because they have strayed far away from the path of Allah. There is a reason why Allah have forbidden alcohol, reason why men not allowed to wear gold...the list continues....

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    AbdurRahman.'s Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    The Quran indicates that consensus' of Scholars can never be wrong and hadith explicitly states it too, therefore we can be 100% certain following consensus is following Islam:

    And whoso opposeth the messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believers way, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto hell - a hapless journey's end! (4:115)

    Note the word 'believers' in above verse is a plural so this is talking about consensus


    Imam Hakim (1/116) has related a Sahih Hadith from the Prophet (Peace be upon him) in the following words: “My Ummah shall not agree upon error.”

    Imam al-Tirmidhi (4/2167) reported on the authority of Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), who said: “Verily my Ummah would not agree (or he said the Ummah of Muhammad) would not agree upon error and Allah’s hand is over the group and whoever dissents from them departs to Hell.” (see also Mishkat, 1/173)
    Last edited by AbdurRahman.; 03-29-2019 at 06:22 AM.

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    *charisma*'s Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by beleiver View Post
    There are many issues that I might encompass by saying modern Islam has taken the joy out of life, I get how pleasures and enjoyment of this life can distract us from our duties and can lead us astray, to commit sin, but is joy in its self a sin?

    I will take music as an example, the word music in any context other than pleasure is not in the Quran...

    Laughter is not as i am aware in the Quran but hadiths say laughter can make the heart hard like stone, but context is everything...Laughing for the wrong reasons, uncontrollably can, of course harden the heart and Music and pleasures can be sinful
    and can make one stray from the path...But nowhere does God say all music and laughter is sinful...He doesn't even directly mention it, its someone else's interpretation...
    Another is medicine, it seems Islam has committed immense shirk in line with Kuffar war on drugs, the word intoxicant is way to broad a term, wherein Islamic context it only references alcohol, yet all intoxicants that just happen to be the ones banned by the Kuffar? Stinks like worst than shirk to me...And Allhas word is so perfect, khamr the root of the word to cover implies to me which substances to stay away from but scholars dont see this or are they simply ignorant? they ban the good things and permit the bad..are they even aware of Allah's blessings?

    The Quran does say though taking his word out of context, innovating, changing his word and adding to it makes the heart hard like stone and not to commit shirk, its the very basis of Islam and one thing that is clear from the start, He alone we worship, He alone we ask for help, so guide us on the straight path, not the path of those that are astray...

    I struggle to believe if Islam is mans instinctive natural state of being, all harmonic sounds, laughter, joy and pleasure is a sin...I just see so many depressed people on these forums, why?

    This is where your lack of knowledge is really shining.

    Here's the thing bro, the majority of Muslim scholars deem music as haram. In fact, did you know that instruments were created by Shaytan?? Do you know the story of Sheeth (as)?? Music has been around since the beginning of time to create mixing between the sexes. How many musicians have taken their own life by what you consider as a possible cure for depression?? How many of them taken drugs, overdosed, etc to escape their realities? We do not even need Islam to teach us that these things are forbidden, just look at society, look at the environments that music is bred in. It is not that these things CAN distract us, it is that they WILL. They will destroy us. That is their sole purpose. Shaytan's sole purpose is to distract us, manipulate us, water-down our faith until it is weak and easily exploited. Even with knowledge at our finger tips, people STILL lack knowledge. And when it comes to Islam, a little knowledge is very dangerous. You think just because google is there there is nothing else to learn?? You are very wrong. Your version Islam cannot be applicable to the rest of society. It doesn't work. Islam as it is though works for everyone, it is their devotion to it that is the problem.

    Secondly Allah sent down the prophet pbuh to teach us beyond what lies in the Quran. What he deems as unnacceptable is unacceptable to Allah. Allah tells us multiple times in the Quran to OBEY the prophet, OBEY the messenger, FOLLOW him. If Allah is to tell us this, who are you or anyone else to say His sunnah is WRONG? If music, drugs, everything you want to include in your life is acceptable or there is the slightest of good in it, then there's no doubt that it would be heavily promoted in Islam. But it is not, not even slightly. The only reason it is ever a topic is because of how widely these things have spread and how corrupted people's hearts have become because of it. Secondly, you're throwing the word shirk around, I wonder if you even know what it means? How can you put the banning of drugs in line with idols/associating partners to Allah? Is that how important drugs are to you?? If you want to live in a diluted reality, that is up to you. But the prophets have been through much worse than you or I ever have gone through, and I have not seen one hadith, one ayah, one legitimate fatwa that says subdue your minds with drugs, excessive laughter and music because life's hard boys and gals. I would think that if anyone deserved some ease in their lives it is them first and foremost.

    In regards to drugs allowed in the medical community, not all drugs are acceptable simply because science or the medical community deems them acceptable. And if something is banned even by the disbelievers because they find harm in it, then why shouldn't it be banned by Islam as well? And even if it is banned, if there is something which is a cure for an illness then it may be allowed. Intoxicant is not too broad of a term. Just because you may find a little bit of benefit in it, does not mean it cures you. It just clouds your brain with folly and fantasies..it's your little escape. Well we need to open our eyes not close them. You don't need a crutch to find reliance in Allah. Your reliance in Allah should be stronger than a drug.

    And again, for the sake of knowledge you really need to study more Islam. You can't just pick and choose what you want out of the religion and consider it islam. If you reject the Sunnah aspect of it, then it is not Islam and in fact you are rejecting Allah's commandments to obey the prophet and follow him. And I don't know why you think laughter is forbidden. It is not. There's a verse in the Quran which says "that it is he who grants laughter and tears." There's no such state as being happy all the time or being sad all the time. You have to find contentment and hold on to it. Excessive laughter does deaden the heart, there's no doubt about that. If you hear comedians, they say that "laughter is a medicine," "laughter distracts you from your problems" "laughter makes you forget"...and then the content of their jokes are quite dark, inappropriate, and even based in insulting Allah, but the people in the audience just laugh it off of course, because even though their core ideals, their Lord, their morals got insulted, it was still funny. But hey, go ahead and laugh your heart out
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    Consensus of Scholars?

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    anatolian's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Slow music has a sedative effect on human psychology and it was used as a cure for mental diseases in our Islamic civilization for centuries. Its so sad some of the muslims of 21st century oppose it.
    Consensus of Scholars?

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

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    CuriousonTruth's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Consensus of scholars is a very rare unicorn, because of how wide the opinions of scholars is. And which series of scholars do you follow? Because many classical scholars who were held in high regard in Islamic empires like Ibn Arabi, Rumi and Imam Ghazali are regarded now as apostates or deviants.

    The series of scholars that were popular in the past and modern day are completely different. In the modern day, Ibn Taymiyyah's line of thought is far more popular. As it should be, because modern day muslims are the least successful and the most inferior version of muslims in 1400 years, it's very fitting they choose to follow Ibn Taymiyyah.

    And there is definitely no consensus between these two. Even their creed is completely different. They are basically two different religions although both claim to be muslim. So what consensus? There is consensus between Ibn Kathir and Dhahabi with each other(if im not wrong) but not between them and other scholars.

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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by beleiver View Post

    I struggle to believe if Islam is mans instinctive natural state of being, all harmonic sounds, laughter, joy and pleasure is a sin...I just see so many depressed people on these forums, why?
    You can judge if a person is depressed on a forum given how he types? That is some talent.

    How do you know that those ppl who are depressed here actually follow Islaam as it should be followed?

    Pleasure is put into sinful things to test you. If you got everything you wanted how would there be a test?


    Narrated Abu Hurayrah:



    The Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: When Allah created Paradise, He said to Gabriel: Go and look at it. He went and looked at it, then came and said: O my Lord! By Thy might, no one who hears of it will fail to enter it.


    He then surrounded it with disagreeable things, and said: Go and look at it, Gabriel. He went and looked at it, then came and said: O my Lord! By Thy might, I am afraid that no one will enter it.


    When Allah created Hell, He said: Go and look at it, Gabriel. He went and looked at it, then came and said: O my Lord! By Thy might, no one who hears of it will enter it.

    He then surrounded it with desirable things and said: Go and look at it, Gabriel. He went, looked at it, then came and said: O my Lord! By Thy might and power, I am afraid that no one will remain who does not enter it.

    Sunan Abi Dawud


    We have already been told that in this world pleasure will be in sinful things. You avoid them, you get the eternal pleasure in Paradise

    You indulge in the temporary pleasure of sinful things in this world, you enjoy the torment of the Fire.

    So simple.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Slow music has a sedative effect on human psychology and it was used as a cure for mental diseases in our Islamic civilization for centuries. Its so sad some of the muslims of 21st century oppose it.
    Music is haraam. It is sad you call yourself a Muslim and promote the haraam.


    Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):


    “And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]


    The scholar of the ummah, Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: this means singing. Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this means playing the drum (tabl). (Tafseer al-Tabari, 21/40).


    Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this aayah was revealed concerning singing and musical instruments (lit. woodwind instruments). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/451).


    May Allaah guide you and keep us guided.

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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post

    Music is haraam. It is sad you call yourself a Muslim and promote the haraam.


    Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):


    “And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]


    The scholar of the ummah, Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: this means singing. Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this means playing the drum (tabl). (Tafseer al-Tabari, 21/40).


    Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this aayah was revealed concerning singing and musical instruments (lit. woodwind instruments). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/451).
    Idle talk means idle talk. It doesnt mean music. In music you dont even talk.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    May Allaah guide you and keep us guided.
    Ameen
    Consensus of Scholars?

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Idle talk means idle talk. It doesnt mean music. In music you dont even talk.
    The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

    “Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).



    Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This is a saheeh hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh, where he quoted it as evidence and stated that it is mu’allaq and majzoom. He said: Chapter on what was narrated concerning those who permit alcohol and call it by another name.


    This hadeeth indicates in two ways that musical instruments and enjoyment of listening to music are haraam. The first is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “[they] permit” which clearly indicates that the things mentioned, including musical instruments, are haraam according to sharee’ah, but those people will permit them. The second is the fact that musical instruments are mentioned alongside things which are definitely known to be haraam, i.e., zinaa and alcohol: if they (musical instruments) were not haraam, why would they be mentioned alongside these things? (adapted from al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 1/140-141)




    Subhaan Allaah. You see the Prophecy come true right in front of your eyes on this very thread and everywhere else these days. We have those ppl who want to permit music and the Satanic instruments used to produce it.

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    anatolian's Avatar
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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

    “Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).



    Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This is a saheeh hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh, where he quoted it as evidence and stated that it is mu’allaq and majzoom. He said: Chapter on what was narrated concerning those who permit alcohol and call it by another name.


    This hadeeth indicates in two ways that musical instruments and enjoyment of listening to music are haraam. The first is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “[they] permit” which clearly indicates that the things mentioned, including musical instruments, are haraam according to sharee’ah, but those people will permit them. The second is the fact that musical instruments are mentioned alongside things which are definitely known to be haraam, i.e., zinaa and alcohol: if they (musical instruments) were not haraam, why would they be mentioned alongside these things? (adapted from al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 1/140-141)




    Subhaan Allaah. You see the Prophecy come true right in front of your eyes on this very thread and everywhere else these days. We have those ppl who want to permit music and the Satanic instruments used to produce it.
    Bro, Lukman:6 does not talk about music, neither human voice nor instruments. Music is composed of both. It is you who put it there in parenthesis. Actually there are no parenthesises in Quran. You just force your interpretation into it.
    Consensus of Scholars?

    “Either seem as you are or be as you seem” Rumi

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    Re: Consensus of Scholars?

    Quote Originally Posted by anatolian View Post
    Bro, Lukman:6 does not talk about music, neither human voice nor instruments. Music is composed of both. It is you who put it there in parenthesis. Actually there are no parenthesises in Quran. You just force your interpretation into it.
    You quoted my post with a hadiith which clearly shows your position is incorrect and started talking about the Qur'aan.


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