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Thread: Truth seeker

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    Truth seeker (OP)


    Hi , my name is chalky
    I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
    What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.

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    Re: Truth seeker

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    Quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman View Post
    You said that if you need to know about religion and gods you will seek out a theologian. I know that's why you are here and I appreciate your sincere search to find the truth. You also said that there are more than 1000 other religions and many of those are invented by man. That is true as well. And this all helps to find our the true religion. For example, let's take Christianity for example. How many versions of Bible they have? Which version of Bible is true? Is there any contradiction is Bible? There are countless if you ask me but you better ask that question to a Christian and I am sure they will agree with what I said. Now compare that to Quran:
    1. Quran's is preserved ever since it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad PBUH. In my last post I mentioned how it is memorized through our generations. You probably don't see any value in it but it is one way of preserving the Divine message in the chests if believers. Human beings can change text as we have seen what they did with Bible, but there is nothing one can do when Divine message in preserved in text form as well as in the human memory.
    2. There is no version of Quran. Every Muslim, Arabic or non-Arabic reads Quran in Arabic. Translation of Quran is not considered equivalent to Quran but you will see that even translation have great power to convince the people who are searching for truth.
    3. There are no contradictions in Quran.
    4. Quran agree 100% with all scientific facts (not theories).

    These are some of the points which separates Quran and Islam from any other religion. I have two separate threads which you may have seen. One is true religion and other is Logical Proof that Islam is the true religion. I have discussed these in more depth in those threads. Next week I am hoping to start working on few other threads which will be logical arguments to prove God exists and second probably about proofs that Islam is the only true religion. I really hope those threads will help you and many others on this form.
    It does not matter how many people memorise the Quran ... that has no bearing on its truth.
    It makes no difference if the Quran has been unaltered since it was written down ... that has no bearing on its truth.

    If lots of people memorise something that is untrue... does it make it true ? No

    I have spoke to many Christians , quite a few , if not most , would say that there are no contradictions in the bible ... I think they are afraid to admit that there are , because they feel if they admit one fault it undermines it all.

    Even if the bible or Quran were perfectly internally consistent .... that does not mean the claims are true.

    I struggle to see how your god claims differ from any others now or historic.

    Does the Quran make any “ scientific “ claims ?

    (Science is a method of thinking that was formalised around 200 years ago ,so strictly speaking there can be no scientific claims in the Quran ,but for the sake of argument , does the Quran make any claims about the universe or anything in it that could be tested scientifically)

    For instance the bible claims the world is flat and has a dome over it,

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    If lots of people memorise something that is untrue... does it make it true ? No
    Are you sure?
    If someone will convince people that some particular bank will bankrupt soon,
    doesn't matter how healthy was that bank before, people will hurry to withdraw their funds from and it will go bankrupt.

    One may analize Qur'an for inconsistencies to criticize it, deducing psychological portrait of the Prophet, even there are institutions which doing so to support atheistic point of view. Sure they are seing what they want to see.
    It's like analizing a key to the door.
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You assign everything you don’t know to “ a god”
    Why don’t you just say you don’t know , instead of offering a supernatural explanation.
    The term “ a god” becomes meaningless if it just means “ the things we do not know “
    But
    That’s not all “ a god” means , there has been multiple theologies built around the concept.
    Which god is responsible for what ... that depends on who you ask ,and when you ask them.
    Gods are a concept that we use to try and explain the things we do not know , you have pretty much confined what I believed.

    As for the box ,I agree you can make logical deductions about what’s in the box ...even though it is empty.
    The true answer is “ I do not know what, if anything is in the box”
    ( agnostic)

    The same principle can be used in regards to the universe , you don’t know how the universe came to be ,nor do I .
    ( agnostic)

    You assume there is something outside the universe ,so like the empty box ,you can make logical deductions about what you think is there.

    If we were to be honest , and leave our beliefs to one side for a moment

    We don’t know how the universe came to be.
    However it seems useless, it's necessary to say "InshaAllah" or "Due to the God's will" instead of "I don't know" to grasp religious viewpoint.

    That's good for agnostic level, when you are able to speak both to atheists and believers.


    Atheistic point of view confined to the cause-effect sequence, confined to the time flow.
    This may seems enough for local effects, if one operate probabilities of random events in classical sense.
    Like in newtonian mechanics, one may add velocities without caring about relativistic effects.
    Or, like euclidian relativistic physics which don't care about curvature of the universe hypershere.

    Because for the global picture, one has take into account an extra, kind of "divine force of unseen", which doesn't confined with time but is rather "orthogonal", affecting probabilities of events in order to decrease absolute complexity of the system.
    No one knows how does unseen work but simply considering multitude of rare random events which brought us into existence as observers, makes such theory more probable than a mere sequence of random events.

    That's for agnostictheism or Tawheed.
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    No.
    There is a subtle difference that you are not grasping.

    I do not believe there are gods
    Is different from
    I believe there is no gods.

    I do not believe gods are real
    I’ve not seen any evidence that would compel me to believe gods are real.
    I’ve not heard any argument that has convinced me that gods are real.

    The arguments used by Muslims are the exact same arguments used by Christians , slightly altered to suit their particular version of the god .

    Dear Chalky,

    Well, you sound like a very intelligent man; and all I can do now, is to invite you to Islam! So Chalky: I Invite you to Islam; and I invite you to read and study our Holy Qur'an: My reading of The Holy Qur'an was what made me realise that Islam is indeed, the only true religion; and so I converted to Islam; and Allah (God) wants all of us to be Muslims!
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    Truth seeker

    Allahu Akbar!

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by manofIslam View Post
    Dear Chalky,

    Well, you sound like a very intelligent man; and all I can do now, is to invite you to Islam! So Chalky: I Invite you to Islam; and I invite you to read and study our Holy Qur'an: My reading of The Holy Qur'an was what made me realise that Islam is indeed, the only true religion; and so I converted to Islam; and Allah (God) wants all of us to be Muslims!
    Thank you for the invitation
    Ive read parts of the Quran , all of the bible a couple of times.
    From what I’ve read of both books , I find them uninspiring , full of Bronze Age superstitions.
    In the spirt of reciprocity,
    I invite you to open your eyes Truth seeker
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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    However it seems useless, it's necessary to say "InshaAllah" or "Due to the God's will" instead of "I don't know" to grasp religious viewpoint.

    That's good for agnostic level, when you are able to speak both to atheists and believers.


    Atheistic point of view confined to the cause-effect sequence, confined to the time flow.
    This may seems enough for local effects, if one operate probabilities of random events in classical sense.
    Like in newtonian mechanics, one may add velocities without caring about relativistic effects.
    Or, like euclidian relativistic physics which don't care about curvature of the universe hypershere.

    Because for the global picture, one has take into account an extra, kind of "divine force of unseen", which doesn't confined with time but is rather "orthogonal", affecting probabilities of events in order to decrease absolute complexity of the system.
    No one knows how does unseen work but simply considering multitude of rare random events which brought us into existence as observers, makes such theory more probable than a mere sequence of random events.

    That's for agnostictheism or Tawheed.
    “ rare , random events that brought us into existence “

    It does not matter if you are talking about life or the universe , no one knows how either began
    So how do you know that it was rare or random

    This is another case of saying “ a god did it”
    Rather than saying” I don’t know”

    It must be comforting to believe you know all the answers, not just of puzzling questions today , but of any question that could be posed in the future,

    Have you ever wondered why so many different cultures all came to different conclusions about fundamental questions like our origin or the origin of life .... it’s because nobody knows , we didn’t then , we don’t now .... so what do people do , they invent an explanation as best they can... we call those explanations gods.

    It’s an indisputable fact , people invent gods.
    It’s an indisputable fact , people become convinced those gods are real.
    It’s an indisputable fact , they convince other people those gods are real.
    It’s an indisputable fact, parents convince their children , the gods are real.

    No matter which religious person you ask , they are always convinced that their “ god” is real , and all the other gods are false.

    I’m not sure what you make of this

    It demonstrates to me , it’s possible for billions of people to believe something is real, when it has no basis in reality
    This is especially true in relation to gods and religions .
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-22-2019 at 05:14 PM.
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Thank you for the invitation
    Ive read parts of the Quran , all of the bible a couple of times.
    From what I’ve read of both books , I find them uninspiring , full of Bronze Age superstitions.
    In the spirt of reciprocity,
    I invite you to open your eyes Truth seeker
    Thank you!

    But Chalky: what if we are right?!! What if you face God when you die, and He asks you why you have been an Atheist?!!
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    Truth seeker

    Allahu Akbar!

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by manofIslam View Post
    Thank you!

    But Chalky: what if we are right?!! What if you face God when you die, and He asks you why you have been an Atheist?!!
    In all honestly I do t not believe in gods or a god
    So if a god judges me harshly for my honestly .. there is nothing I can do.

    What if I’m right , you will have spend your life worshiping a idea , or what if the Christians are right , you will go to hell , or if the Hindus are right ... what if the Mormons are right , or Scientologist ,, what if the Buddhists are right?
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    “ rare , random events that brought us into existence “

    It does not matter if you are talking about life or the universe , no one knows how either began
    So how do you know that it was rare or random

    This is another case of saying “ a god did it”
    Rather than saying” I don’t know”

    It must be comforting to believe you know all the answers, not just of puzzling questions today , but of any question that could be posed in the future,

    Have you ever wondered why so many different cultures all came to different conclusions about fundamental questions like our origin or the origin of life .... it’s because nobody knows , we didn’t then , we don’t now .... so what do people do , they invent an explanation as best they can... we call those explanations gods.

    It’s an indisputable fact , people invent gods.
    It’s an indisputable fact , people become convinced those gods are real.
    It’s an indisputable fact , they convince other people those gods are real.
    It’s an indisputable fact, parents convince their children , the gods are real.

    No matter which religious person you ask , they are always convinced that their “ god” is real , and all the other gods are false.

    I’m not sure what you make of this

    It demonstrates to me , it’s possible for billions of people to believe something is real, when it has no basis in reality
    This is especially true in relation to gods and religions .
    I don't suggest you to just believe something, as a fellow scientific minded person, only inviting you to consider as a theory.

    For me, from accepting that agnostictheism theory I described above until embracing Islam, it took 12 years of pondering and I didn't read much from Qur'an before.
    And I never give up on scientific approach, so, neither am expecting you to do so.

    Of course, if you are trying to evaluate religion as a science you are seing too many fallacies. Like if you would try to evaluate neural network as an imperative language program.
    However, you can try to consider as a phenomenon, to see it's role in mankind's development.

    Try to consider human brain in it's entirety, including subconscious data processing.
    Our conscious thinking is only a top of an iceberg, relatively new and confined with language.
    During day time mammals are simply reacting to environment, they are processing data at night, during REM phase of the sleeping.
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    In all honestly I do t not believe in gods or a god
    So if a god judges me harshly for my honestly .. there is nothing I can do.

    What if I’m right , you will have spend your life worshiping a idea , or what if the Christians are right , you will go to hell , or if the Hindus are right ... what if the Mormons are right , or Scientologist ,, what if the Buddhists are right?


    Ah, Chalky: you're a hard man to convince!! But I admire your tenacity!!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    I don't suggest you to just believe something, as a fellow scientific minded person, only inviting you to consider as a theory.

    For me, from accepting that agnostictheism theory I described above until embracing Islam, it took 12 years of pondering and I didn't read much from Qur'an before.
    And I never give up on scientific approach, so, neither am expecting you to do so.

    Of course, if you are trying to evaluate religion as a science you are seing too many fallacies. Like if you would try to evaluate neural network as an imperative language program.
    However, you can try to consider as a phenomenon, to see it's role in mankind's development.

    Try to consider human brain in it's entirety, including subconscious data processing.
    Our conscious thinking is only a top of an iceberg, relatively new and confined with language.
    During day time mammals are simply reacting to environment, they are processing data at night, during REM phase of the sleeping.


    Well said, Bro!!
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    Truth seeker

    Allahu Akbar!

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    In all honestly I do t not believe in gods or a god
    So if a god judges me harshly for my honestly .. there is nothing I can do.

    What if I’m right , you will have spend your life worshiping a idea , or what if the Christians are right , you will go to hell , or if the Hindus are right ... what if the Mormons are right , or Scientologist ,, what if the Buddhists are right?
    Consider what I have learned from the Risale-i-Nur (in my own words, i may sound cheesy).
    But first, I'll start off with a modern favorite not known in the time of bediuzzaman said nursi (rh) What created the big bang?
    2nd: naturalistic atheism is irrational because it supposes that rather than the causer of causes unifying all things together under his most effective command, all of nature in perfect harmony, (when humans are not around, an argument in favor of the idea that humans were not meant for this world because when humans are not around the ecosystem works just fine, regardless of competition, universally it is given that since the dawn of agriculture we are an invasive species), and the whole universe and cosmos in perfect harmony in all its wonders, in one single unity, rather than one entity creating all that there is, from nothing and evolving it, you would have to have as many typewriters as there are letters to produce a single letter in a single book, a single atom becomes as difficult as the creation of a single planet, the creation of a single cell becomes as difficult as the creation of a single species. how can they come together? and nature shows us that the weakest of creatures always gets the easiest nourishment, so how else can it be that the islamic principle of helplessness before your Lord and submission is not exemplified? and why is it that the inner parts of the creatures are many many times more creatively made than the outer parts? and if nature were left to blind, material causes, it would be meaningless and almost make no sense and be cold to watch many things in nature. a mammal breastfeeding her pups, chewing food and then emitting it, mating and then getting pregnant simply for the joy of having children. who else teaches the animals and the humans these things these things? why do human beings get so obsessed with 8 minutes of pleasure that it consumes and destroys their lives? to the point that it no longer becomes about mating and reproducing? and if you think deeply, these are all rather odd physical activities. all of us crave a sort of immortality. every pleasure has a sort of longing for immortality in it. everything good is creative, and everything contrary to religion is destructive and can even be counted as non existence. this points to an afterlife. and attrivuting partners to creation is dangerous because on a religious level, if there was more than one god, they would compete for the throne. it is the nature of being. all creatures of an intellectual capacity. this is in the quran. that rules out polytheism. and if creation were to be their own creators (space time, carbon, etc.) something has to control the limits because everything is contingent meaning there are unlimited possibilities and there has to be one creator to judge the limits of expanding elements such as air water, fire, space time, etc. as it says in the quran that the universe will contract, and one has to say what exists and doesn't exist. furthermore, further expounding on the argument that humans destroy the ecosystem, iin the words of another scholar, no other creature has done destruction on this scale. between 1980 and 2045 we will have lost more plant and animal species than have been lost in the past 65 million years . clearly human beings don't belong. it is clear that we are the stewarts to this planet, and we need to take care of it. we are exiles from the garden of eden, and jannah is our true home. because belief is our fitrah, our innate disposition. our innate disposition is to do good, but our environment corrupts us and soon we acquire bad traits. there is no such thing as original evil in islam. tawheed is the idea that God is worthy of worship without partners,and that the duty of life is to serve God. through this we will find peace, whether in this world, this life and the next, or the next.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    also, according to many people, the quran itself is a miracle. many people at the time were hypnotized by its recitation, and some even thought it was black magic. just as every language has its golden era, and english's golden era is the victorian era, arabic's golden era was the classical era, at a time when everyone around the world was obsessed with poetry. and this is still the case, we are still obsessed with convincing arguments (poetry, essentially) and artistic statements of sorts like movies and novels. every era had its fixation and its prophet who brought its proof. moses (as) brought proof with magic, Jesus (as) brought proof with medicine, and muhammad (PBUH) brought proof with poetry, as well as other miracles.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    furthermore, life becomes much easier with belief. also, a philosopher can not become an expert on religion just as a religious scholar not trained in medicine can not operate open heart surgery. someone with no knowledge of fiqh, theology, etc. can not disprove something without proper context. atheism is not a belief, it is merely a negation of belief. also, to quote the risale i nur. "if everything is attributed to "natural causes" not to the All -Powerful One of Majesty, the One and Unique, this means that many of the physical elements and causes should be present and working in the body of every living being however, that so many different conflicting causes and elements come together of their own accord in perfect order and extremely precise measurements in the body of even the smallest of creatures, even a tiny fly, this is inconceivable.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by manofIslam View Post
    Ah, Chalky: you're a hard man to convince!! But I admire your tenacity!!!

    - - - Updated - - -





    Well said, Bro!!
    Actually , provide me with good solid evidence and you will find I’m more easily convinced.

    I’ve had quite a few conversations with Christians, they use the exact same arguments as you ,along with personal testimony.
    Argument from design
    Cosmological argument
    Moral argument etc
    They make appeals to their holy book , appeals to faith then some try pascal wager.

    As much as I cannot disprove the existence of a god , you cannot prove the existence of god.

    The arguments provided aren’t good arguments, they haven’t convinced you to become Christian ... if they are not persuasive to you ( Muslims in general) they don’t persuade me.

    If you assume there is something in an empty box, you can make all sorts of philosophical argument about it .

    I do not assume there is something in the box , I’m honest enough to say I don’t know
    Doubt is a foundation stone knowledge

    Faith is a foundation stone of false beliefs

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    I don't suggest you to just believe something, as a fellow scientific minded person, only inviting you to consider as a theory.

    For me, from accepting that agnostictheism theory I described above until embracing Islam, it took 12 years of pondering and I didn't read much from Qur'an before.
    And I never give up on scientific approach, so, neither am expecting you to do so.

    Of course, if you are trying to evaluate religion as a science you are seing too many fallacies. Like if you would try to evaluate neural network as an imperative language program.
    However, you can try to consider as a phenomenon, to see it's role in mankind's development.

    Try to consider human brain in it's entirety, including subconscious data processing.
    Our conscious thinking is only a top of an iceberg, relatively new and confined with language.
    During day time mammals are simply reacting to environment, they are processing data at night, during REM phase of the sleeping.
    It does not matter if you accepted Islam in a week or 40 years .... that has no bearing on its truth.

    I agree the human brain is very complex, but still makes mistakes all the time, it’s filled with biases , false beliefs .

    Science is the only method of thought that tried to tackle these inherit failures in our brains , science is designed to weed out and correct these failures.

    So I agree with you science is very important , I would say science is the best method we have for investigating the universe and our place in it , it’s not perfect by any means, but it has proven itself time and again to be a reliable path to truth.

    There is a lot to be learned and understood about the subconscious, even consciousness itself .... but to say , because we dream there must be a god ... is a leap of logic I wouldn’t make , and quite frankly I’m surprised you haveTruth seeker.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Actually , provide me with good solid evidence and you will find I’m more easily convinced.

    I’ve had quite a few conversations with Christians, they use the exact same arguments as you ,along with personal testimony.
    Argument from design
    Cosmological argument
    Moral argument etc
    They make appeals to their holy book , appeals to faith then some try pascal wager.

    As much as I cannot disprove the existence of a god , you cannot prove the existence of god.

    The arguments provided aren’t good arguments, they haven’t convinced you to become Christian ... if they are not persuasive to you ( Muslims in general) they don’t persuade me.

    If you assume there is something in an empty box, you can make all sorts of philosophical argument about it .

    I do not assume there is something in the box , I’m honest enough to say I don’t know
    Doubt is a foundation stone knowledge

    Faith is a foundation stone of false beliefs
    Arguments used by theists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.) are mostly the same but they all focus on creation and logical reasoning to prove God. These arguments would make sense to few and would not make sense to many. Why? Because you are asking us to prove God but perhaps you never asked God to show you the path?

    Anyways, good thing is that God does not expect a belief right away for no reason. This is blind Faith and it is not required.
    But if you at least even have the DESIRE to believe, then that is like a seed. Plant that seed. Humble yourself and be willing to experiment even though you don't yet "know" that anything will happen.


    Pull out Quran and read. Read the principles that are taught. Find the characteristics of God. Then ponder them. Be humble and open minded. Don't preface each thought with atheistic bias. Be honest with yourself and check your humility and openness. Begin to develop specific thoughts and questions. Try even writing them down to help gather them clearly. Then find a quiet spot to be alone, and kneel down and pray. Speak with God Don't say which God, here you are praying to an unknown God you are trying to find. Talk to Him about your thoughts and feelings. Then ask Him a specific question that is truly important to you. Then pause. Wait.
    Pay attention to thoughts and feelings that come to your mind. I find that writing these down helps me clarify them. An answer may or may not come right away, but it is good to be ready.
    Last of all, go about your day as you might normally do. Be patient. Understand that God will have the ability to answer, but also the capacity to say no to a request.
    | Likes Eric H liked this post

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    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman View Post
    Arguments used by theists (Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.) are mostly the same but they all focus on creation and logical reasoning to prove God. These arguments would make sense to few and would not make sense to many. Why? Because you are asking us to prove God but perhaps you never asked God to show you the path?

    Anyways, good thing is that God does not expect a belief right away for no reason. This is blind Faith and it is not required.
    But if you at least even have the DESIRE to believe, then that is like a seed. Plant that seed. Humble yourself and be willing to experiment even though you don't yet "know" that anything will happen.


    Pull out Quran and read. Read the principles that are taught. Find the characteristics of God. Then ponder them. Be humble and open minded. Don't preface each thought with atheistic bias. Be honest with yourself and check your humility and openness. Begin to develop specific thoughts and questions. Try even writing them down to help gather them clearly. Then find a quiet spot to be alone, and kneel down and pray. Speak with God Don't say which God, here you are praying to an unknown God you are trying to find. Talk to Him about your thoughts and feelings. Then ask Him a specific question that is truly important to you. Then pause. Wait.
    Pay attention to thoughts and feelings that come to your mind. I find that writing these down helps me clarify them. An answer may or may not come right away, but it is good to be ready.
    Last of all, go about your day as you might normally do. Be patient. Understand that God will have the ability to answer, but also the capacity to say no to a request.
    What are the characteristics of god?

  23. #78
    HabibUrrehman's Avatar
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    What are the characteristics of god?
    Attributes is probably the better word. There are several attributes of God which help us understand who He is.

    For example:

    God absolute One. He isunique, nothing is like Him (He is not a man as some people might wronglyimagine), He is The Creator and Lord of everything (every, human, animal,plant, organism, star, galaxy; in fact the entire universe), and everythingelse other than Him is His creation. Everything in the universe belongs to Him.
    God is The First andThe Last. Cosmologists and scientists who stillwonder how this universe all started can be briefed that the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God beupon him, said,:

    "First of all, there was nothing but God (then He created His throne). His throne wasover the water, and He …. created the heavens and the earth."

    The Big Bang theory on how the universeoriginated fits the description of the creation of the universe in the Quran.GodAlmighty is The First and nothing was before Him and is The Last and nothingwill come after Him. God created space, matter, time, light and darkness; allis under His plan.
    God is above all. God Almighty is physically above the universe raisedabove His Throne in a way that suits His Majesty. He is above all. Everythingis below Him. No man can imagine or comprehend how God looks like; it is beyondour ability to do so. No man has ever seen God and only in Paradise will thebelievers be granted the greatest bliss which is when God Almighty will revealHis Face and the believers will be able to see Him.
    God does not sleep,rest or eat. Unlike humans the Almighty is praised fromany weakness or imperfection, such as the need to sleep, rest or eat. Instead,He grants the blessing of sleep and feeds mankind in the hope that they will bethankful and acknowledge their need for Him.
    God knows, sees andhears everything. Consider how far anyhuman can see with his/her eyes at a given time; and now consider (Praise be toGod) that God Almighty sees all what 7 billion people can see; and He sees,hears and knows every large and tiny event that occurs in the universe.Furthermore, God, and only God knows, the future. Is there anyone like God? Isthere any one worthy of worship other than Him?
    God is TheAll-Strong, The All-Powerful and is capable of everything. When Prophet Moses asked God that he wanted to see TheAlmighty, God told Moses to look at a mountain and if the mountain stayed inplace he would see Him; and when The Almighty revealed Himself to the mountainit got totally obliterated and Moses was knocked out unconscious.
    Natural occurrences such as hurricanes,volcanoes, earthquakes, supernovas in outer space are all signs of how strong,powerful and magnificent God is. An intriguing fact is that the known universe(to man) is approximately 93 billion light years in diameter, i.e. is adistance of 550 billion trillion miles. Which means a spaceship, travelling at20,000 mph, would take approximately 3139 trillion years to travel thediameter of the "known" universe.
    Now read what God says:

    "They made not a just estimate of God such as is due toHim. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped byHis Hand and the
    heavens will be rolled upin His Right Hand. Glorified be He, and High be He above all that theyassociate as partners with Him." (Quran 39:67)
    On the Day of Judgment the entire knownuniverse will be held in the Right Hand of God Almighty. Is there anyone like God? Is there any one worthy ofworship other than Him?
    God is The MostMerciful. The Most Merciful is One of God’sNames. Some of His other Names are TheAll-Compassionate, The Creator, The Only One, The Light, The Magnificent, TheGenerous, The Glorious, The Most Sacred, The Sustainer, The Majestic One, TheSource of Peace, The Giver of Life, The Taker of Life, The Loving One, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor of repentance, The Wise One, The Just, and TheAvenger. It is of extreme benefit when asking God for anything to call Him byHis Beautiful Names. When asking for wealth one can say "Oh God, TheGenerous" and when asking for forgiveness one can say "Oh God, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor ofrepentance".
    From the Lord’s Mercy is that:
    "He restrains the sky from falling upon the earth,unless by His permission. Indeed God, to the people, is Kind andMerciful." (Quran 22:65)
    TheProphet Muhammad,
    may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, once saw a nursing mother desperatelylooking for her lost infant, and when she found her child the Prophet said: "Do you think that this lady can throw her son in the fire?" Wereplied, "No, if she has the power not to throw it (in the fire)."The Prophet then said, "God is more merciful to His slaves than this lady to her son."

    God is The EternallyLiving One, The Self-Existing One. Theseare another two of God’s Beautiful Names. Everything that exists needs God forsurvival and God need’s no one. Every human will perish, while The Lord ofMajesty and Honor (also one of His Beautiful Names) is ever-living;immortal.
    "Indeed, yourLord is God, Who… covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing itrapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by Hiscommand. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is God,Lord of the worlds." (Quran7:54)
    Everything that happens in this world is not by itself or bycoincidence, but it is The Almighty who is controlling everything. Dayand night, summer and winter, rainfall and drought, every cell function in thebody (of which there are trillions of), the germination of seeds into plants,cell multiplications that form an embryo then a child, and people dying; alloccur by the command of God.

    These are just a few attributes I tried to describe briefly. Quran has described 99 attributes of Allah so that we can understand who Allah is. See link below for the attributes of Allah mentioned in Quran:

    https://www.whyislam.org/allah/god/n...utes-of-allah/
    Last edited by HabibUrrehman; 07-23-2019 at 10:02 PM.
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    Zafran's Avatar
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    As much as I cannot disprove the existence of a god , you cannot prove the existence of god.
    we disagree - the Universe being contingent requires a necessary a being that has will and power to bring it from non existence to existence.

    Then this necessary being (thanks to his will) has been sending prophets from Adam, to Abhrham to Moses to Jesus to Muhmmad pbuh etc. These prophets have transformed human history - A very good case can be made for the prophet Muhmmad pbuh who changed humans from worshiping Idols to worshiping the necessary being - from being tribal to a transcendental morality - A similar case can be made of other prophets.


    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I do not assume there is something in the box , I’m honest enough to say I don’t know
    Doubt is a foundation stone knowledge
    Doubt is not the foundation of Knowledge on the contrary its a lost position. Im sure you would have hard time getting out the matrix or the dream that you may be in.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    What are the characteristics of god?
    A contingent thing (what we "know" of the universe) requires something necessary to bring it into existence - the necessary being must have had power to bring into existence - will to choose it from non existence to existence - Knowledge because the contingent universe is complex and would need to know the difference from non existence to existence - oneness so the power and will can be actualized - this Necessary being with power, Knowledge and will has been sending prophets throughout time and those prophets teach us that God (Necessary being) is merciful, forgiving, Kind ect.
    | Likes Eric H liked this post
    Truth seeker

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    we disagree - the Universe being contingent requires a necessary a being that has will and power to bring it from non existence to existence.

    Then this necessary being (thanks to his will) has been sending prophets from Adam, to Abhrham to Moses to Jesus to Muhmmad pbuh etc. These prophets have transformed human history - A very good case can be made for the prophet Muhmmad pbuh who changed humans from worshiping Idols to worshiping the necessary being - from being tribal to a transcendental morality - A similar case can be made of other prophets.




    Doubt is not the foundation of Knowledge on the contrary its a lost position. Im sure you would have hard time getting out the matrix or the dream that you may be in.

    - - - Updated - - -



    A contingent thing (what we "know" of the universe) requires something necessary to bring it into existence - the necessary being must have had power to bring into existence - will to choose it from non existence to existence - Knowledge because the contingent universe is complex and would need to know the difference from non existence to existence - oneness so the power and will can be actualized - this Necessary being with power, Knowledge and will has been sending prophets throughout time and those prophets teach us that God (Necessary being) is merciful, forgiving, Kind ect.
    Can you prove the universe is contingent ?
    “ this necessary being “
    Prove it’s a “ being”
    If you assume it’s a being, then you can begin to make logical deductions about this being .... but why would you make that assumption.

    Even if you could do those things , at best these are arguments for a deist god , it’s quite a leap from that to a deist god.

    The Beatles changed the world, so did the NASA space program, so did Alexander Fleming.

    Doubt is not a foundation stone of knowledge ?? Really
    If you already believe you know the answer , that your right , you can’t be wrong ... what would motivate you to investigate anything to gain knowledge.

    To know how little you know , is the biggest motivator ,I know to learn.


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