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Thread: Truth seeker

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    Truth seeker (OP)


    Hi , my name is chalky
    I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
    What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.

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    Re: Truth seeker

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    Quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman View Post
    Attributes is probably the better word. There are several attributes of God which help us understand who He is.

    For example:

    God absolute One. He isunique, nothing is like Him (He is not a man as some people might wronglyimagine), He is The Creator and Lord of everything (every, human, animal,plant, organism, star, galaxy; in fact the entire universe), and everythingelse other than Him is His creation. Everything in the universe belongs to Him.
    God is The First andThe Last. Cosmologists and scientists who stillwonder how this universe all started can be briefed that the Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God beupon him, said,:


    The Big Bang theory on how the universeoriginated fits the description of the creation of the universe in the Quran.GodAlmighty is The First and nothing was before Him and is The Last and nothingwill come after Him. God created space, matter, time, light and darkness; allis under His plan.
    God is above all. God Almighty is physically above the universe raisedabove His Throne in a way that suits His Majesty. He is above all. Everythingis below Him. No man can imagine or comprehend how God looks like; it is beyondour ability to do so. No man has ever seen God and only in Paradise will thebelievers be granted the greatest bliss which is when God Almighty will revealHis Face and the believers will be able to see Him.
    God does not sleep,rest or eat. Unlike humans the Almighty is praised fromany weakness or imperfection, such as the need to sleep, rest or eat. Instead,He grants the blessing of sleep and feeds mankind in the hope that they will bethankful and acknowledge their need for Him.
    God knows, sees andhears everything. Consider how far anyhuman can see with his/her eyes at a given time; and now consider (Praise be toGod) that God Almighty sees all what 7 billion people can see; and He sees,hears and knows every large and tiny event that occurs in the universe.Furthermore, God, and only God knows, the future. Is there anyone like God? Isthere any one worthy of worship other than Him?
    God is TheAll-Strong, The All-Powerful and is capable of everything. When Prophet Moses asked God that he wanted to see TheAlmighty, God told Moses to look at a mountain and if the mountain stayed inplace he would see Him; and when The Almighty revealed Himself to the mountainit got totally obliterated and Moses was knocked out unconscious.
    Natural occurrences such as hurricanes,volcanoes, earthquakes, supernovas in outer space are all signs of how strong,powerful and magnificent God is. An intriguing fact is that the known universe(to man) is approximately 93 billion light years in diameter, i.e. is adistance of 550 billion trillion miles. Which means a spaceship, travelling at20,000 mph, would take approximately 3139 trillion years to travel thediameter of the "known" universe.
    [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica]Now read what God says:


    On the Day of Judgment the entire knownuniverse will be held in the Right Hand of God Almighty. Is there anyone like God? Is there any one worthy ofworship other than Him?
    God is The MostMerciful. The Most Merciful is One of God’sNames. Some of His other Names are TheAll-Compassionate, The Creator, The Only One, The Light, The Magnificent, TheGenerous, The Glorious, The Most Sacred, The Sustainer, The Majestic One, TheSource of Peace, The Giver of Life, The Taker of Life, The Loving One, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor of repentance, The Wise One, The Just, and TheAvenger. It is of extreme benefit when asking God for anything to call Him byHis Beautiful Names. When asking for wealth one can say "Oh God, TheGenerous" and when asking for forgiveness one can say "Oh God, TheForgiving, The Ever-Acceptor ofrepentance".
    From the Lord’s Mercy is that:


    TheProphet Muhammad,
    may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, once saw a nursing mother desperatelylooking for her lost infant, and when she found her child the Prophet said: "Do you think that this lady can throw her son in the fire?" Wereplied, "No, if she has the power not to throw it (in the fire)."The Prophet then said, "God is more merciful to His slaves than this lady to her son."

    God is The EternallyLiving One, The Self-Existing One. Theseare another two of God’s Beautiful Names. Everything that exists needs God forsurvival and God need’s no one. Every human will perish, while The Lord ofMajesty and Honor (also one of His Beautiful Names) is ever-living;immortal.


    Everything that happens in this world is not by itself or bycoincidence, but it is The Almighty who is controlling everything. Dayand night, summer and winter, rainfall and drought, every cell function in thebody (of which there are trillions of), the germination of seeds into plants,cell multiplications that form an embryo then a child, and people dying; alloccur by the command of God.

    These are just a few attributes I tried to describe briefly. Quran has described 99 attributes of Allah so that we can understand who Allah is. See link below for the attributes of Allah mentioned in Quran:

    https://www.whyislam.org/allah/god/n...utes-of-allah/
    The Big Bang does not describe the beginning of the universe , it describes the universe changing from one state to another.

    How would god know that he , knows, sees, and hears everything ?
    That’s illogical
    If something happened that god was unaware of ... would he know ?


    It seems to me , and this is a major problem ,
    Is that you( other people) define what a god is ,
    So a god is nothing more that what you define a god to be.

    I believe people invent gods in a primitive attempt to explain the universe and our place in it , gods are what we use when we don’t have a proper explanation.

    I have no doubt that people living 4000 years ago knew less than we know now.
    With that in mind , faced with the questions

    Where did the universe come from ( the universe was not nearly as big for them as it is for us )
    Where did life come from ?

    Faced with these questions , and without the tools or technology to answer them , they invented answers, they invented gods , this is why different cultures all invented different gods.

    The concept of these gods would change and evolve over time as the attributes they have were discussed , and debated.

    Gods are a concept, used to fill in gaps in our knowledge.
    IMHO

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The Big Bang does not describe the beginning of the universe , it describes the universe changing from one state to another.

    How would god know that he , knows, sees, and hears everything ?
    That’s illogical
    If something happened that god was unaware of ... would he know ?


    It seems to me , and this is a major problem ,
    Is that you( other people) define what a god is ,
    So a god is nothing more that what you define a god to be.

    I believe people invent gods in a primitive attempt to explain the universe and our place in it , gods are what we use when we don’t have a proper explanation.

    I have no doubt that people living 4000 years ago knew less than we know now.
    With that in mind , faced with the questions

    Where did the universe come from ( the universe was not nearly as big for them as it is for us )
    Where did life come from ?

    Faced with these questions , and without the tools or technology to answer them , they invented answers, they invented gods , this is why different cultures all invented different gods.

    The concept of these gods would change and evolve over time as the attributes they have were discussed , and debated.

    Gods are a concept, used to fill in gaps in our knowledge.
    IMHO
    Is not it funny that many facts you are talking about we know now are mentioned in Quran with accuracy. Remember again Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. How do you justify that someone living is a desert of Arabia 1490 years ago will know these facts. Read Quran and look into the mathematical, scientific, numerical and linguistic miracles in Quran. Denying something without even testing only shows you are not sincerely looking for the answers to your questions.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman View Post
    Is not it funny that many facts you are talking about we know now are mentioned in Quran with accuracy. Remember again Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. How do you justify that someone living is a desert of Arabia 1490 years ago will know these facts. Read Quran and look into the mathematical, scientific, numerical and linguistic miracles in Quran. Denying something without even testing only shows you are not sincerely looking for the answers to your questions.
    I’m not sure what a mathematical or linguistic miracle is ... a scientific miracle ??
    If it’s scientific can it be a miracle.

    Can you give me a scientific fact from the Quran?

    The Old Testament was written 4000 years ago and people claim that there are scientific claims in that.

    I just want to point out , even if there is a fact in the Quran , that does not mean the entire book is true.
    It does not tell you how or even if they knew it was a fact.

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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I’m not sure what a mathematical or linguistic miracle is ... a scientific miracle ??
    If it’s scientific can it be a miracle.

    Can you give me a scientific fact from the Quran?

    The Old Testament was written 4000 years ago and people claim that there are scientific claims in that.

    I just want to point out , even if there is a fact in the Quran , that does not mean the entire book is true.
    It does not tell you how or even if they knew it was a fact.
    I have already pointed out that the Quran is not in agreement with science regarding the Big Bang , the Big Bang does not say anywhere that there was “ nothing”

    You assert natural disasters are a sign of god .... can you prove that they are ?

    Does the Quran claim the moon was split in two ,?

    Is this a physical splitting of the moon ?
    If so , what is the evidence that supports a this claim ... I assume you believe it is true .

    ( please do not point to a passage in a book that claims the moon was split in two )
    A claim cannot be evidence of itself.
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-24-2019 at 08:53 AM.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman View Post
    Since you are an atheist, I think first thing we probably need to establish if the God really exists?

    Let me start with a simple example.

    Imagine attending an event where everything, from the carpets, to the drapery, to the furniture, dish-ware, cutlery, floral arrangements, to the lighting, color coordination and menu are no less than picture-perfect!

    Besides enjoying the perfect environs, what else are you sure the guests would do?

    They will undoubtedly inquire about who or which company arranged and managed the event so impeccably. The more high-class and sophisticated the cuisine, decor and ambiance, the greater the received praise for the organizers and event managers who brought it all together.

    The same can be said for any perfectly made, exotic culinary dish or dessert; a classy and visually appealing dress or outfit, or any other product of human ingenuity and creativity: the more valuable and finished the end-product, the greater the praise it will get, and the higher esteem, demand, and value will its ‘creator’ garner and enjoy.

    It is no wonder then that the “designers” who make it big in their respective industries regardless of what they design or create - be it clothing, home interiors, civic infrastructure, furniture, jewelry, food, hairstyles, technological gadgetry, or scientific inventions - are recognized and respected through and because of their created products. The more fault-free, visually appealing, smoothly functional and beneficial for general use the latter are, the more value, money, respect, demand and awe will its designer be able to demand and receive.

    Now imagine if when the guests at the beautifully decorated event inquire which company or individual created the idea behind it and then succeeded in practically executing it so perfectly, they are told that no one did anything; rather, everything just automatically fell into place on its own, without anyone calling the shots.

    Would you expect anyone with a sane mind to believe this story?

    Any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him.
    Analogically, God has created whatever is in the heavens and the earth, and He has done an awe-inspiring perfect job of creation that takes one’s breath away, even if one ponders upon only the most microscopic, minuscule aspect of one of His creations, such as the structure of a single human cell, or the intricate way the wing of a mosquito is made.

    The Creator has spread all of the signs of His powers around us, which point clearly to His omnipotence and omnipresence, beholding which, any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him, without even seeing Him.

    Let's agree on this first and then we can discuss why Muslims believe that Allah is the true Creator and the only true Divine guidance is Quran. Sounds reasonable?
    yes absolutely right I agreed with you.
    Truth seeker


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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq View Post
    yes absolutely right I agreed with you.

    What do all designers have in common , from watches to airplanes , to culinary delights .... they all have parents.

    Who is your designer parents?

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Hi , my name is chalky
    I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
    What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.
    Oh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"

    Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the



    awaits you.
    | Likes Zafran liked this post

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Can you prove the universe is contingent ?
    “ this necessary being “
    Prove it’s a “ being”
    If you assume it’s a being, then you can begin to make logical deductions about this being .... but why would you make that assumption.
    All the evidence proves that the universe is contingent unless you have evidence its Necessary? - A universe requires will, Knowledge and power to come from non existence to existence only a necessary being can have such attributes unless you have evidence for the contrary?
    Truth seeker

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Junon View Post
    Oh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"

    Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the



    awaits you.
    Nobody is asking you to talk to me, post to me, reply to me, or read what I write.
    Feel free to ignore everything I say Truth seeker
    | Likes Ahmed. liked this post

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Even if you could do those things , at best these are arguments for a deist god , it’s quite a leap from that to a deist god.
    No they are not because power, Knowledge and will are required for the Contingent Universe to come into existence - what do you mean by "deist God" what proofs do you speak of here?


    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The Beatles changed the world, so did the NASA space program, so did Alexander Fleming.
    didn't know they claimed to be prophets from God..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Doubt is not a foundation stone of knowledge ?? Really
    If you already believe you know the answer , that your right , you can’t be wrong ... what would motivate you to investigate anything to gain knowledge.

    To know how little you know , is the biggest motivator ,I know to learn.
    Yes doubt is is not good for you - how do you know your not living in a dream or matrix?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The Big Bang does not describe the beginning of the universe , it describes the universe changing from one state to another.
    can you give any evidence for this?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I believe people invent gods in a primitive attempt to explain the universe and our place in it , gods are what we use when we don’t have a proper explanation.
    what is a proper explanation? what do you mean by invent?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Junon View Post
    Oh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"

    Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the
    Its just a bit of fun we all know how this ends lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Nobody is asking you to talk to me, post to me, reply to me, or read what I write.
    Feel free to ignore everything I say
    Your the millionth atheist with the same game, but your right lets entertain the idea that your actually a true seeker.
    Last edited by Zafran; 07-24-2019 at 11:55 PM.
    Truth seeker

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Hi , my name is chalky
    I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
    What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Nobody is asking you to talk to me, post to me, reply to me, or read what I write.
    Feel free to ignore everything I say
    Salaam/Peace Be Upon You Brother chalks75.

    In general, Religion is very appealing. It gives us answers to many questions; as you've seen from the many sources in this thread.

    Islam / religion allows us to maintain peace of mind; gives us something to put our faith in and is a source of comfort for many of us. The Qur’aan is the word of Allaah which came from Him in the form of speech, without any need for us to know how. He sent it down to His Messenger by Revelation, the believers believe that it is true and they are certain that it is indeed the word of Allaah and that it is not created like the words of human beings.
    There's no benefit to being an atheist. We think that you will agree with us that all humans are free to believe in and to love or hate any idea or belief. This is one of the freedoms that are guaranteed by modern constitutions. But no human being has the right to mistreat those who differ from him in belief by wronging them, annoying them or betraying them, or trying to cause them harm, just because of the differences in belief between them.

    We do not hate you personally nor do we want to ignore you, just remember that YOU are posting on this forum and we put in our input. How could we hate you when we do not know you and have never met you; we could never despise you for your colour, your race or your family. All of that is forbidden to us, to love or hate people because of their colour, lineage or forebears. Rather our hatred and enmity is directed towards the disbelief and atheism that you carry in your heart and will soon destroy you and lead you to the eternal punishment of Allah, and that will bring upon you misery in this world and in the hereafter. We feel very sorry for you because of this misery and we are striving to save you from it; we wish that we could do that!

    It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah has taken away your pride of Jaahiliyyah (ignorance) and your boasting about your forefathers. One is only a righteous believer or a doomed evildoer. You are the sons of Adam and Adam was created from dust. Men should stop boasting about their forefathers, who are no more than the coal of Hell, or they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose.”
    A saheeh (sound) hadeeth, narrated by Abu Dawood (5116) et al.

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    chalks75's Avatar
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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    No they are not because power, Knowledge and will are required for the Contingent Universe to come into existence - what do you mean by "deist God" what proofs do you speak of here?




    didn't know they claimed to be prophets from God..

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes doubt is is not good for you - how do you know your not living in a dream or matrix?

    - - - Updated - - -



    can you give any evidence for this?

    - - - Updated - - -



    what is a proper explanation? what do you mean by invent?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Its just a bit of fun we all know how this ends lol.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Your the millionth atheist with the same game, but your right lets entertain the idea that your actually a true seeker.
    Why don’t you look up what a deist god is , quite frankly I’m surprised you don’t know.
    Just in case you don’t look it up , a deist god is a god that created the universe set everything in motion , then takes no more part in proceedings , and quite a few of the arguments offered by theists argue only for s deist god not a theist god.

    They did not claim to be prophets from god , but something can change the world without having divine nature, so Islam changing the world ( or a small fraction of it) is not evidence in itself the island is either true or divine , Hinduism has changed the world ( or a small part of it)

    The Big Bang theory states that “ the universe was a small dense mass ( singularity) then that singularity began to expand ( expanding universe)
    At no place in the Big Bang theory does it say there was no universe, or that there was nothing.

    Can there even be nothing ?
    To be , is to be in a state of existence ... can nothing be in a state of existence .

    Can I prove I’m not in the matrix , no .
    Nor can you , so how could it be proved there was a god , since it’s possible we are in a matrix( I do not believe this , but I cannot prove it is not true )

    What do I mean by invent.
    What I mean by invent is , when faced with questions like “ how the universe came to be”
    They make logical inferences based on the assumption that there is something to make logical inferences about

    Whatever created the universe must have been incredibly powerful.

    This assumes the universe is a creation , and it takes a lot of power to create it ( according to the latest science the total energy of the universe is zero)

    If you assume there is something in an empty box , you can make logical deductions about it .... even through there is nothing there .
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-25-2019 at 09:05 AM.

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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceee View Post
    Salaam/Peace Be Upon You Brother chalks75.

    In general, Religion is very appealing. It gives us answers to many questions; as you've seen from the many sources in this thread.

    Islam / religion allows us to maintain peace of mind; gives us something to put our faith in and is a source of comfort for many of us. The Qur’aan is the word of Allaah which came from Him in the form of speech, without any need for us to know how. He sent it down to His Messenger by Revelation, the believers believe that it is true and they are certain that it is indeed the word of Allaah and that it is not created like the words of human beings.
    There's no benefit to being an atheist. We think that you will agree with us that all humans are free to believe in and to love or hate any idea or belief. This is one of the freedoms that are guaranteed by modern constitutions. But no human being has the right to mistreat those who differ from him in belief by wronging them, annoying them or betraying them, or trying to cause them harm, just because of the differences in belief between them.

    We do not hate you personally nor do we want to ignore you, just remember that YOU are posting on this forum and we put in our input. How could we hate you when we do not know you and have never met you; we could never despise you for your colour, your race or your family. All of that is forbidden to us, to love or hate people because of their colour, lineage or forebears. Rather our hatred and enmity is directed towards the disbelief and atheism that you carry in your heart and will soon destroy you and lead you to the eternal punishment of Allah, and that will bring upon you misery in this world and in the hereafter. We feel very sorry for you because of this misery and we are striving to save you from it; we wish that we could do that!

    It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah has taken away your pride of Jaahiliyyah (ignorance) and your boasting about your forefathers. One is only a righteous believer or a doomed evildoer. You are the sons of Adam and Adam was created from dust. Men should stop boasting about their forefathers, who are no more than the coal of Hell, or they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose.”
    A saheeh (sound) hadeeth, narrated by Abu Dawood (5116) et al.
    I’m not convinced your right , you may be but I’m not convinced.
    I think gods are a concept that we invented to try and help us explain our place in the universe, they are a concept they do not exist in reality.

    Religions historically have always tried to stop people from questioning its “truth” , so I’m not surprised your religion teaches you to hate doubters , doubters are bad for business.

    I fully understand I am posting on your forum , that I am a guest here , so I will endeavour to conduct myself with manners and respect , which I try to do in my every day life.

    If you are not comfortable having your beliefs questioned, just say so , there are lots of forums , lots of people who are willing to have honest conversations.


    The very first post I posted , I said I understood the social benefits of religions , Islam included , that does not concern me , what concerns me is wether or not it’s true , or wether or not you can even know it’s true.

    Beliefs are important , beliefs inspire actions
    How we arrive at those beliefs are as equally important , it’s important to me that the things I believe are true , are in fact true.
    I do not want to believe something because , it’s socially beneficial , my parents and peers believe it , it’s a cultural belief , or that I just haven’t questioned it, or that I’ve been convinced it’s true but for bad reasons.

    So, if you would rather I find another forum to post on , just say no , harm done Truth seeker
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-25-2019 at 08:33 AM.
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    All the evidence proves that the universe is contingent unless you have evidence its Necessary? - A universe requires will, Knowledge and power to come from non existence to existence only a necessary being can have such attributes unless you have evidence for the contrary?
    There is absolute no evidence whatsoever ever about the origin of the universe or how it came to be , you can assert the universe required will, knowledge, etc ... but you can’t prove it.

    Non existence to existence ?
    When was it proved that there was a time when there was nothing in existence.

    You are confusing religious beliefs with science.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Why don’t you look up what a deist god is , quite frankly I’m surprised you don’t know.
    Just in case you don’t look it up , a deist god is a god that created the universe set everything in motion , then takes no more part in proceedings , and quite a few of the arguments offered by theists argue only for s deist god not a theist god.
    Im surprised you don't know Kalam which is not an argument for deism its actually an argument against it. There is a robust tradition in Islam like in other religions against this - you should check it out.


    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    They did not claim to be prophets from god , but something can change the world without having divine nature, so Islam changing the world ( or a small fraction of it) is not evidence in itself the island is either true or divine , Hinduism has changed the world ( or a small part of it)
    Islam is the fasting growing religion on the planet which has shaped countless civilizations from the Arabs to the Africans, to the people of sub continent right around the world - its shaped ethical, aesthetic,social, political culture. Its transformation based on the claim that there is a God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true prophet in a line of many prophets. Hinduism may have had true prophets like Christianity and Judaism.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The Big Bang theory states that “ the universe was a small dense mass ( singularity) then that singularity began to expand ( expanding universe)
    At no place in the Big Bang theory does it say there was no universe, or that there was nothing.
    so you have no proof for your previous claim - ok......

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Can there even be nothing ?
    To be , is to be in a state of existence ... can nothing be in a state of existence .
    Indeed before the Contingent Universe there was a Necessary being that had to will the universe into existence when it didn't exist - a bit like you being born - you didn't exist and then you did. Unless you think the Universe is necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Can I prove I’m not in the matrix , no .
    Nor can you , so how could it be proved there was a god , since it’s possible we are in a matrix( I do not believe this , but I cannot prove it is not true )
    Here is a better explanation then the matrix and dream simulation - Islam. Much more real and trans formative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    What do I mean by invent.
    What I mean by invent is , when faced with questions like “ how the universe came to be”
    They make logical inferences based on the assumption that there is something to make logical inferences about
    why make logical inferences? we make them because we believe the Universe is made by a wise God, so logic is one way we try to understand God's creation and some attributes one can deduce form creation and others from Revelation.
    You keep saying that people "invent" but we and everyone else dont "invent anything- we didn't invent the contingent Universe - we didn't invent our bodies, Nature, and pretty much most things we can conceive - instead we are finding out why we are here - a lot of people are convinced about God and the prophets including the prophet Muhammad for various reasons of course.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Whatever created the universe must have been incredibly powerful.
    Good we are making progress - Not only that but there could have only been one power source which actualized the existence of the universe.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    This assumes the universe is a creation , and it takes a lot of power to create it ( according to the latest science the total energy of the universe is zero)
    No it assumes the Universe is contingent (because of the evidence so far) - if its contingent then creation is the only logical explanation for it. Of course unless you want to go against the evidence and argue its necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    If you assume there is something in an empty box , you can make logical deductions about it .... even through there is nothing there .
    The empty Box is contingent - regardless of whats inside it. Follow the logic and don't go all Wittgenstein just yet we haven't arrived there yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    There is absolute no evidence whatsoever ever about the origin of the universe or how it came to be , you can assert the universe required will, knowledge, etc ... but you can’t prove it.
    The evidence proves the Universe is contingent unless you have evidence to the contrary?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Non existence to existence ?
    When was it proved that there was a time when there was nothing in existence.
    Like yourself for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You are confusing religious beliefs with science.
    we are doing Logic not science - science relies on Logic you do know that right? Its one of the assumptions it makes about the world like mechanistic causality, Uniformity of nature etc.

    Here a pro tip - make your strongest argument for atheism then this conversation will be fruitful otherwise you'll just being going in circles which it seems we are going as you dont follow what is stated before - like Contingency of the Universe which is the crux of my rational argument. You haven't provided a single one yet. Expect you claimed some vague changes before the Big bang where there is no evidence for rationally, logically or historically.
    Last edited by Zafran; 07-26-2019 at 12:11 AM.
    Truth seeker

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Saira Khan's Avatar
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Talking and reasoning with an atheist is forbidden in Islam.

    It was narrated from ‘Aishah that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Shaytan comes to one of you and says, ‘Who created you?’ And he says ‘Allah.’ Then the Shaytan says, ‘Who created Allah?’ If that happens to any one of you, let him say, Amantu Billahi wa Rusulihi (I believe in Allah and His messengers). Then that will go away from him.”(Narrated by Ahmad, 25671; classed as hasan (sound) by al-Albani in al-Saheehah, 116).

    @chalks75 in your previous post, your answers to my very simple questions were ridiculous, meaning that your so called rational thoughts are very irrational, which are misleading you. You are a victim of falsity due to your irrational limited brain. Don't mind it but at least try to be a free person.
    Stay blessed.
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    chalks75's Avatar
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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Im surprised you don't know Kalam which is not an argument for deism its actually an argument against it. There is a robust tradition in Islam like in other religions against this - you should check it out.




    Islam is the fasting growing religion on the planet which has shaped countless civilizations from the Arabs to the Africans, to the people of sub continent right around the world - its shaped ethical, aesthetic,social, political culture. Its transformation based on the claim that there is a God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true prophet in a line of many prophets. Hinduism may have had true prophets like Christianity and Judaism.



    so you have no proof for your previous claim - ok......

    - - - Updated - - -



    Indeed before the Contingent Universe there was a Necessary being that had to will the universe into existence when it didn't exist - a bit like you being born - you didn't exist and then you did. Unless you think the Universe is necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Here is a better explanation then the matrix and dream simulation - Islam. Much more real and trans formative.

    - - - Updated - - -



    why make logical inferences? we make them because we believe the Universe is made by a wise God, so logic is one way we try to understand God's creation and some attributes one can deduce form creation and others from Revelation.
    You keep saying that people "invent" but we and everyone else dont "invent anything- we didn't invent the contingent Universe - we didn't invent our bodies, Nature, and pretty much most things we can conceive - instead we are finding out why we are here - a lot of people are convinced about God and the prophets including the prophet Muhammad for various reasons of course.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Good we are making progress - Not only that but there could have only been one power source which actualized the existence of the universe.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No it assumes the Universe is contingent (because of the evidence so far) - if its contingent then creation is the only logical explanation for it. Of course unless you want to go against the evidence and argue its necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The empty Box is contingent - regardless of whats inside it. Follow the logic and don't go all Wittgenstein just yet we haven't arrived there yet.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The evidence proves the Universe is contingent unless you have evidence to the contrary?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Like yourself for example.



    we are doing Logic not science - science relies on Logic you do know that right? Its one of the assumptions it makes about the world like mechanistic causality, Uniformity of nature etc.

    Here a pro tip - make your strongest argument for atheism then this conversation will be fruitful otherwise you'll just being going in circles which it seems we are going as you dont follow what is stated before - like Contingency of the Universe which is the crux of my rational argument. You haven't provided a single one yet. Expect you claimed some vague changes before the Big bang where there is no evidence for rationally, logically or historically.
    I’m not convinced gods or a god is real , I’ve seen no evidence nor heard any argument that would compel me to believe the claim
    “ some god exists” therefore I am not convinced some god (gods) exists ...
    Therefore the only rational position I can take is that of A-theism.
    That is why I am an atheist.
    I may be wrong , but there you have it.

    A-theism , is a perfectly rational and logical position to hold.

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    chalks75's Avatar
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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Im surprised you don't know Kalam which is not an argument for deism its actually an argument against it. There is a robust tradition in Islam like in other religions against this - you should check it out.




    Islam is the fasting growing religion on the planet which has shaped countless civilizations from the Arabs to the Africans, to the people of sub continent right around the world - its shaped ethical, aesthetic,social, political culture. Its transformation based on the claim that there is a God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true prophet in a line of many prophets. Hinduism may have had true prophets like Christianity and Judaism.



    so you have no proof for your previous claim - ok......

    - - - Updated - - -



    Indeed before the Contingent Universe there was a Necessary being that had to will the universe into existence when it didn't exist - a bit like you being born - you didn't exist and then you did. Unless you think the Universe is necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Here is a better explanation then the matrix and dream simulation - Islam. Much more real and trans formative.

    - - - Updated - - -



    why make logical inferences? we make them because we believe the Universe is made by a wise God, so logic is one way we try to understand God's creation and some attributes one can deduce form creation and others from Revelation.
    You keep saying that people "invent" but we and everyone else dont "invent anything- we didn't invent the contingent Universe - we didn't invent our bodies, Nature, and pretty much most things we can conceive - instead we are finding out why we are here - a lot of people are convinced about God and the prophets including the prophet Muhammad for various reasons of course.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Good we are making progress - Not only that but there could have only been one power source which actualized the existence of the universe.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No it assumes the Universe is contingent (because of the evidence so far) - if its contingent then creation is the only logical explanation for it. Of course unless you want to go against the evidence and argue its necessary.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The empty Box is contingent - regardless of whats inside it. Follow the logic and don't go all Wittgenstein just yet we haven't arrived there yet.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The evidence proves the Universe is contingent unless you have evidence to the contrary?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Like yourself for example.



    we are doing Logic not science - science relies on Logic you do know that right? Its one of the assumptions it makes about the world like mechanistic causality, Uniformity of nature etc.

    Here a pro tip - make your strongest argument for atheism then this conversation will be fruitful otherwise you'll just being going in circles which it seems we are going as you dont follow what is stated before - like Contingency of the Universe which is the crux of my rational argument. You haven't provided a single one yet. Expect you claimed some vague changes before the Big bang where there is no evidence for rationally, logically or historically.
    The Kalam cosmological argument.
    Originated in Islam
    “ everything that begins to exist has a cause
    The universe began to exist
    The universe has a cause “
    That is the kalam cosmological argument

    It’s conclusion “ the universe has a cause “

    It makes not argument for what that cause is, wether it’s a conscious being , wether it has will etc ... it just stays there is a cause.
    So at best it’s an argument for a deist god , and not a very good one.
    For you to argue that the cause has a will or a mind , you must leave the kalam and provide a different argument.

    How fast a religion grows or how many people believe it ... has zero bearing on its truth.
    At one time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the planet , it shaped countries , changed entire continents
    Do this make Christianity true ... is Jesus a god?

    The Big Bang theory states the universe was a singularity that expanded, it does not state a universe came from nothing .

    Do you want evidence that this is what the Big Bang theory states ?
    Or
    Are you asking for evidence that this is what happened ?

    You claim there was a time the universe did not exist ... what evidence have you that this is true ,
    No one knows when or if the universe began (I understand your religious beliefs tell you it did )

    You make logical inferences because YOU BELIVE there is a god
    Just like the empty box , you can come to logical conclusions that are wrong, if you believe there is something in the box.
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-26-2019 at 12:08 PM.

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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The Kalam cosmological argument.
    Originated in Islam
    “ everything that begins to exist has a cause
    The universe began to exist
    The universe has a cause “
    That is the kalam cosmological argument

    It’s conclusion “ the universe has a cause “

    It makes not argument for what that cause is, wether it’s a conscious being , wether it has will etc ... it just stays there is a cause.
    So at best it’s an argument for a deist god , and not a very good one.
    For you to argue that the cause has a will or a mind , you must leave the kalam and provide a different argument.

    How fast a religion grows or how many people believe it ... has zero bearing on its truth.
    At one time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the planet , it shaped countries , changed entire continents
    Do this make Christianity true ... is Jesus a god?

    The Big Bang theory states the universe was a singularity that expanded, it does not state a universe came from nothing .

    Do you want evidence that this is what the Big Bang theory states ?
    Or
    Are you asking for evidence that this is what happened ?
    You claim there was a time the universe did not exist ... what evidence have you that this is true ,
    No one knows when or if the universe began (I understand your religious beliefs tell you it did )

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Hello Chalks75...I'm going to explain why I am a muslim. Maybe it may give insight and better understanding?

    The quran hasnt been changed...ever. You acknowledge this right? Yet notice many things that are discovered in the quran that are true...such as two seas of salt water and fresh water not mixing...such as the development of the embryo...prediction of the Bzystantie empire defeating the fire worshiping persians. All life comes from water...everything in space has an orbit...sun is like a lamp glowing and burning energy while the The Arabic word for moon is 'qamar' and the light described there is 'muneer' which is borrowed light, or 'noor' which is a reflection of light." There is many more scientific facts...of course Christian's and other religions will claim their book is true but they know it has been changed. When I was debating with a christian...he asked me who wrote the quran...I told him it came from god...no man wrote it. The bible is man made because it was been translated and combined from torah (old testament) and the gospels and psalms. All combined into one big book. The christian couldn't belive me...let's argue what he thinks...muhammad SAW wrote the quran...even so all these facts that correlate with science are true...also Muhammad did not write the quran...it was delivered as an oral message from God. Memorized and recited in our prayer. People than wrote it down AFTER his death to make it easier for those who cant memorize and to persecre it. They checked the autencity with those who did memorize it.

    Science is a human concept which is why I avoid saying science. Science is ever changing and some theory can be proven and disproved. But the things I mentioned are FACTS. Science is the measurement of our surronding and theories from what humans can understand. EVERYTHING Muhammad SAW came true and predicted.

    Not just that even the things the Prophet SAW said are true such as seeing of many types colors in paradise...meaning color is a limited wavelength only we humans can see...however animals can see things we cant. THIS is proven. Such as infrared color. In paradise we can see colors that cant be imagined....there so many more things...but honestly you have to put in work and cant expect us to feed you everything. You have to try yourself and actually STUDY the quran and the life of Muhammad. Even if you say what if your wrong..then if I'm wrong I'm stil happy i lived a life beautiful religion that gave everyone civil rights INCLUDING women and blacks. I'm proud to be a good person and helped others...but think of this way...what if you are wrong? What will you do then? Are you not scared of what might happen if you are? Isnt it better to die as a good person belive on the best cause?

    My scholar or spiritual leader in the mosque said when a muslim became an atheist...he asked him how he is feeling about life...the atheist said BY GOD I am even more confused with life.

    God gives purpose with life and tells us what to do and not to do FOR OUR BENEFIT. Think of the celebrities who have everything but still are depressed because they feel as they have no purpose on life.

    So honestly chalks it depends on you in the end...my brothers and sisters can only inform you of our religion. There is no compulsion in ours.


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