Hi , my name is chalky
I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.
Hi , my name is chalky
I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.
The Big Bang does not describe the beginning of the universe , it describes the universe changing from one state to another.format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
How would god know that he , knows, sees, and hears everything ?
That’s illogical
If something happened that god was unaware of ... would he know ?
It seems to me , and this is a major problem ,
Is that you( other people) define what a god is ,
So a god is nothing more that what you define a god to be.
I believe people invent gods in a primitive attempt to explain the universe and our place in it , gods are what we use when we don’t have a proper explanation.
I have no doubt that people living 4000 years ago knew less than we know now.
With that in mind , faced with the questions
Where did the universe come from ( the universe was not nearly as big for them as it is for us )
Where did life come from ?
Faced with these questions , and without the tools or technology to answer them , they invented answers, they invented gods , this is why different cultures all invented different gods.
The concept of these gods would change and evolve over time as the attributes they have were discussed , and debated.
Gods are a concept, used to fill in gaps in our knowledge.
IMHO
Is not it funny that many facts you are talking about we know now are mentioned in Quran with accuracy. Remember again Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. How do you justify that someone living is a desert of Arabia 1490 years ago will know these facts. Read Quran and look into the mathematical, scientific, numerical and linguistic miracles in Quran. Denying something without even testing only shows you are not sincerely looking for the answers to your questions.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
I’m not sure what a mathematical or linguistic miracle is ... a scientific miracle ??format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
If it’s scientific can it be a miracle.
Can you give me a scientific fact from the Quran?
The Old Testament was written 4000 years ago and people claim that there are scientific claims in that.
I just want to point out , even if there is a fact in the Quran , that does not mean the entire book is true.
It does not tell you how or even if they knew it was a fact.
I have already pointed out that the Quran is not in agreement with science regarding the Big Bang , the Big Bang does not say anywhere that there was “ nothing”format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
You assert natural disasters are a sign of god .... can you prove that they are ?
Does the Quran claim the moon was split in two ,?
Is this a physical splitting of the moon ?
If so , what is the evidence that supports a this claim ... I assume you believe it is true .
( please do not point to a passage in a book that claims the moon was split in two )
A claim cannot be evidence of itself.
Last edited by chalks75; 07-24-2019 at 08:53 AM.
yes absolutely right I agreed with you.format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman
format_quote Originally Posted by MazharShafiq
What do all designers have in common , from watches to airplanes , to culinary delights .... they all have parents.
Who is your designer parents?
Oh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the
awaits you.
Zafran liked this post
All the evidence proves that the universe is contingent unless you have evidence its Necessary? - A universe requires will, Knowledge and power to come from non existence to existence only a necessary being can have such attributes unless you have evidence for the contrary?format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
Nobody is asking you to talk to me, post to me, reply to me, or read what I write.format_quote Originally Posted by JunonOh dear, this is what this forum REALLY needs, another Internet atheist trying to 'deconvert' us, it may be exciting for other members but for me, to quote Jeremy Irons "Well forgive me for not leaping for joy, bad back you know"
Word of advice, we know the game your playing, keep it civilised or the
awaits you.
Feel free to ignore everything I say
Ahmed. liked this post
No they are not because power, Knowledge and will are required for the Contingent Universe to come into existence - what do you mean by "deist God" what proofs do you speak of here?format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
didn't know they claimed to be prophets from God..format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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Yes doubt is is not good for you - how do you know your not living in a dream or matrix?format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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can you give any evidence for this?format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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what is a proper explanation? what do you mean by invent?format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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Its just a bit of fun we all know how this ends lol.format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
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Your the millionth atheist with the same game, but your right lets entertain the idea that your actually a true seeker.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
Last edited by Zafran; 07-24-2019 at 11:55 PM.
format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
Salaam/Peace Be Upon You Brother chalks75.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
In general, Religion is very appealing. It gives us answers to many questions; as you've seen from the many sources in this thread.
Islam / religion allows us to maintain peace of mind; gives us something to put our faith in and is a source of comfort for many of us. The Qur’aan is the word of Allaah which came from Him in the form of speech, without any need for us to know how. He sent it down to His Messenger by Revelation, the believers believe that it is true and they are certain that it is indeed the word of Allaah and that it is not created like the words of human beings.
There's no benefit to being an atheist. We think that you will agree with us that all humans are free to believe in and to love or hate any idea or belief. This is one of the freedoms that are guaranteed by modern constitutions. But no human being has the right to mistreat those who differ from him in belief by wronging them, annoying them or betraying them, or trying to cause them harm, just because of the differences in belief between them.
We do not hate you personally nor do we want to ignore you, just remember that YOU are posting on this forum and we put in our input. How could we hate you when we do not know you and have never met you; we could never despise you for your colour, your race or your family. All of that is forbidden to us, to love or hate people because of their colour, lineage or forebears. Rather our hatred and enmity is directed towards the disbelief and atheism that you carry in your heart and will soon destroy you and lead you to the eternal punishment of Allah, and that will bring upon you misery in this world and in the hereafter. We feel very sorry for you because of this misery and we are striving to save you from it; we wish that we could do that!
It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Allah has taken away your pride of Jaahiliyyah (ignorance) and your boasting about your forefathers. One is only a righteous believer or a doomed evildoer. You are the sons of Adam and Adam was created from dust. Men should stop boasting about their forefathers, who are no more than the coal of Hell, or they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose.”
A saheeh (sound) hadeeth, narrated by Abu Dawood (5116) et al.
Why don’t you look up what a deist god is , quite frankly I’m surprised you don’t know.format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Just in case you don’t look it up , a deist god is a god that created the universe set everything in motion , then takes no more part in proceedings , and quite a few of the arguments offered by theists argue only for s deist god not a theist god.
They did not claim to be prophets from god , but something can change the world without having divine nature, so Islam changing the world ( or a small fraction of it) is not evidence in itself the island is either true or divine , Hinduism has changed the world ( or a small part of it)
The Big Bang theory states that “ the universe was a small dense mass ( singularity) then that singularity began to expand ( expanding universe)
At no place in the Big Bang theory does it say there was no universe, or that there was nothing.
Can there even be nothing ?
To be , is to be in a state of existence ... can nothing be in a state of existence .
Can I prove I’m not in the matrix , no .
Nor can you , so how could it be proved there was a god , since it’s possible we are in a matrix( I do not believe this , but I cannot prove it is not true )
What do I mean by invent.
What I mean by invent is , when faced with questions like “ how the universe came to be”
They make logical inferences based on the assumption that there is something to make logical inferences about
Whatever created the universe must have been incredibly powerful.
This assumes the universe is a creation , and it takes a lot of power to create it ( according to the latest science the total energy of the universe is zero)
If you assume there is something in an empty box , you can make logical deductions about it .... even through there is nothing there .
Last edited by chalks75; 07-25-2019 at 09:05 AM.
I’m not convinced your right , you may be but I’m not convinced.format_quote Originally Posted by Iceee
I think gods are a concept that we invented to try and help us explain our place in the universe, they are a concept they do not exist in reality.
Religions historically have always tried to stop people from questioning its “truth” , so I’m not surprised your religion teaches you to hate doubters , doubters are bad for business.
I fully understand I am posting on your forum , that I am a guest here , so I will endeavour to conduct myself with manners and respect , which I try to do in my every day life.
If you are not comfortable having your beliefs questioned, just say so , there are lots of forums , lots of people who are willing to have honest conversations.
The very first post I posted , I said I understood the social benefits of religions , Islam included , that does not concern me , what concerns me is wether or not it’s true , or wether or not you can even know it’s true.
Beliefs are important , beliefs inspire actions
How we arrive at those beliefs are as equally important , it’s important to me that the things I believe are true , are in fact true.
I do not want to believe something because , it’s socially beneficial , my parents and peers believe it , it’s a cultural belief , or that I just haven’t questioned it, or that I’ve been convinced it’s true but for bad reasons.
So, if you would rather I find another forum to post on , just say no , harm done
Last edited by chalks75; 07-25-2019 at 08:33 AM.
Eric H liked this post
There is absolute no evidence whatsoever ever about the origin of the universe or how it came to be , you can assert the universe required will, knowledge, etc ... but you can’t prove it.format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Non existence to existence ?
When was it proved that there was a time when there was nothing in existence.
You are confusing religious beliefs with science.
Im surprised you don't know Kalam which is not an argument for deism its actually an argument against it. There is a robust tradition in Islam like in other religions against this - you should check it out.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
Islam is the fasting growing religion on the planet which has shaped countless civilizations from the Arabs to the Africans, to the people of sub continent right around the world - its shaped ethical, aesthetic,social, political culture. Its transformation based on the claim that there is a God and the prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true prophet in a line of many prophets. Hinduism may have had true prophets like Christianity and Judaism.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
so you have no proof for your previous claim - ok......format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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Indeed before the Contingent Universe there was a Necessary being that had to will the universe into existence when it didn't exist - a bit like you being born - you didn't exist and then you did. Unless you think the Universe is necessary.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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Here is a better explanation then the matrix and dream simulation - Islam. Much more real and trans formative.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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why make logical inferences? we make them because we believe the Universe is made by a wise God, so logic is one way we try to understand God's creation and some attributes one can deduce form creation and others from Revelation.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
You keep saying that people "invent" but we and everyone else dont "invent anything- we didn't invent the contingent Universe - we didn't invent our bodies, Nature, and pretty much most things we can conceive - instead we are finding out why we are here - a lot of people are convinced about God and the prophets including the prophet Muhammad for various reasons of course.
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Good we are making progress - Not only that but there could have only been one power source which actualized the existence of the universe.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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No it assumes the Universe is contingent (because of the evidence so far) - if its contingent then creation is the only logical explanation for it. Of course unless you want to go against the evidence and argue its necessary.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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The empty Box is contingent - regardless of whats inside it. Follow the logic and don't go all Wittgenstein just yet we haven't arrived there yet.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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The evidence proves the Universe is contingent unless you have evidence to the contrary?format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
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Like yourself for example.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
we are doing Logic not science - science relies on Logic you do know that right? Its one of the assumptions it makes about the world like mechanistic causality, Uniformity of nature etc.format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
Here a pro tip - make your strongest argument for atheism then this conversation will be fruitful otherwise you'll just being going in circles which it seems we are going as you dont follow what is stated before - like Contingency of the Universe which is the crux of my rational argument. You haven't provided a single one yet. Expect you claimed some vague changes before the Big bang where there is no evidence for rationally, logically or historically.
Last edited by Zafran; 07-26-2019 at 12:11 AM.
Talking and reasoning with an atheist is forbidden in Islam.
It was narrated from ‘Aishah that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Shaytan comes to one of you and says, ‘Who created you?’ And he says ‘Allah.’ Then the Shaytan says, ‘Who created Allah?’ If that happens to any one of you, let him say, Amantu Billahi wa Rusulihi (I believe in Allah and His messengers). Then that will go away from him.”(Narrated by Ahmad, 25671; classed as hasan (sound) by al-Albani in al-Saheehah, 116).
@chalks75 in your previous post, your answers to my very simple questions were ridiculous, meaning that your so called rational thoughts are very irrational, which are misleading you. You are a victim of falsity due to your irrational limited brain. Don't mind it but at least try to be a free person.
Stay blessed.
I’m not convinced gods or a god is real , I’ve seen no evidence nor heard any argument that would compel me to believe the claimformat_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
“ some god exists” therefore I am not convinced some god (gods) exists ...
Therefore the only rational position I can take is that of A-theism.
That is why I am an atheist.
I may be wrong , but there you have it.
A-theism , is a perfectly rational and logical position to hold.
The Kalam cosmological argument.format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Originated in Islam
“ everything that begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
The universe has a cause “
That is the kalam cosmological argument
It’s conclusion “ the universe has a cause “
It makes not argument for what that cause is, wether it’s a conscious being , wether it has will etc ... it just stays there is a cause.
So at best it’s an argument for a deist god , and not a very good one.
For you to argue that the cause has a will or a mind , you must leave the kalam and provide a different argument.
How fast a religion grows or how many people believe it ... has zero bearing on its truth.
At one time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the planet , it shaped countries , changed entire continents
Do this make Christianity true ... is Jesus a god?
The Big Bang theory states the universe was a singularity that expanded, it does not state a universe came from nothing .
Do you want evidence that this is what the Big Bang theory states ?
Or
Are you asking for evidence that this is what happened ?
You claim there was a time the universe did not exist ... what evidence have you that this is true ,
No one knows when or if the universe began (I understand your religious beliefs tell you it did )
You make logical inferences because YOU BELIVE there is a god
Just like the empty box , you can come to logical conclusions that are wrong, if you believe there is something in the box.
Last edited by chalks75; 07-26-2019 at 12:08 PM.
You claim there was a time the universe did not exist ... what evidence have you that this is true ,format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75
No one knows when or if the universe began (I understand your religious beliefs tell you it did )
Hello Chalks75...I'm going to explain why I am a muslim. Maybe it may give insight and better understanding?
The quran hasnt been changed...ever. You acknowledge this right? Yet notice many things that are discovered in the quran that are true...such as two seas of salt water and fresh water not mixing...such as the development of the embryo...prediction of the Bzystantie empire defeating the fire worshiping persians. All life comes from water...everything in space has an orbit...sun is like a lamp glowing and burning energy while the The Arabic word for moon is 'qamar' and the light described there is 'muneer' which is borrowed light, or 'noor' which is a reflection of light." There is many more scientific facts...of course Christian's and other religions will claim their book is true but they know it has been changed. When I was debating with a christian...he asked me who wrote the quran...I told him it came from god...no man wrote it. The bible is man made because it was been translated and combined from torah (old testament) and the gospels and psalms. All combined into one big book. The christian couldn't belive me...let's argue what he thinks...muhammad SAW wrote the quran...even so all these facts that correlate with science are true...also Muhammad did not write the quran...it was delivered as an oral message from God. Memorized and recited in our prayer. People than wrote it down AFTER his death to make it easier for those who cant memorize and to persecre it. They checked the autencity with those who did memorize it.
Science is a human concept which is why I avoid saying science. Science is ever changing and some theory can be proven and disproved. But the things I mentioned are FACTS. Science is the measurement of our surronding and theories from what humans can understand. EVERYTHING Muhammad SAW came true and predicted.
Not just that even the things the Prophet SAW said are true such as seeing of many types colors in paradise...meaning color is a limited wavelength only we humans can see...however animals can see things we cant. THIS is proven. Such as infrared color. In paradise we can see colors that cant be imagined....there so many more things...but honestly you have to put in work and cant expect us to feed you everything. You have to try yourself and actually STUDY the quran and the life of Muhammad. Even if you say what if your wrong..then if I'm wrong I'm stil happy i lived a life beautiful religion that gave everyone civil rights INCLUDING women and blacks. I'm proud to be a good person and helped others...but think of this way...what if you are wrong? What will you do then? Are you not scared of what might happen if you are? Isnt it better to die as a good person belive on the best cause?
My scholar or spiritual leader in the mosque said when a muslim became an atheist...he asked him how he is feeling about life...the atheist said BY GOD I am even more confused with life.
God gives purpose with life and tells us what to do and not to do FOR OUR BENEFIT. Think of the celebrities who have everything but still are depressed because they feel as they have no purpose on life.
So honestly chalks it depends on you in the end...my brothers and sisters can only inform you of our religion. There is no compulsion in ours.
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