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Thread: Truth seeker

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    Truth seeker (OP)


    Hi , my name is chalky
    I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
    What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.

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    Truth seeker

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    Quote Originally Posted by Studentofdeed View Post
    Hello Chalks75...I'm going to explain why I am a muslim. Maybe it may give insight and better understanding?

    The quran hasnt been changed...ever. You acknowledge this right? Yet notice many things that are discovered in the quran that are true...such as two seas of salt water and fresh water not mixing...such as the development of the embryo...prediction of the Bzystantie empire defeating the fire worshiping persians. All life comes from water...everything in space has an orbit...sun is like a lamp glowing and burning energy while the The Arabic word for moon is 'qamar' and the light described there is 'muneer' which is borrowed light, or 'noor' which is a reflection of light." There is many more scientific facts...of course Christian's and other religions will claim their book is true but they know it has been changed. When I was debating with a christian...he asked me who wrote the quran...I told him it came from god...no man wrote it. The bible is man made because it was been translated and combined from torah (old testament) and the gospels and psalms. All combined into one big book. The christian couldn't belive me...let's argue what he thinks...muhammad SAW wrote the quran...even so all these facts that correlate with science are true...also Muhammad did not write the quran...it was delivered as an oral message from God. Memorized and recited in our prayer. People than wrote it down AFTER his death to make it easier for those who cant memorize and to persecre it. They checked the autencity with those who did memorize it.

    Science is a human concept which is why I avoid saying science. Science is ever changing and some theory can be proven and disproved. But the things I mentioned are FACTS. Science is the measurement of our surronding and theories from what humans can understand. EVERYTHING Muhammad SAW came true and predicted.

    Not just that even the things the Prophet SAW said are true such as seeing of many types colors in paradise...meaning color is a limited wavelength only we humans can see...however animals can see things we cant. THIS is proven. Such as infrared color. In paradise we can see colors that cant be imagined....there so many more things...but honestly you have to put in work and cant expect us to feed you everything. You have to try yourself and actually STUDY the quran and the life of Muhammad. Even if you say what if your wrong..then if I'm wrong I'm stil happy i lived a life beautiful religion that gave everyone civil rights INCLUDING women and blacks. I'm proud to be a good person and helped others...but think of this way...what if you are wrong? What will you do then? Are you not scared of what might happen if you are? Isnt it better to die as a good person belive on the best cause?

    My scholar or spiritual leader in the mosque said when a muslim became an atheist...he asked him how he is feeling about life...the atheist said BY GOD I am even more confused with life.

    God gives purpose with life and tells us what to do and not to do FOR OUR BENEFIT. Think of the celebrities who have everything but still are depressed because they feel as they have no purpose on life.

    So honestly chalks it depends on you in the end...my brothers and sisters can only inform you of our religion. There is no compulsion in ours.
    The fact that the Quran has not changed , is in no way evidence that it’s true ... it is only evidence that it hasn’t change.

    If you can find verses in the Quran that if you interpret them in a certain way , you can make them seem they conform to scientific discoveries.
    Christians do this with the bible as well
    “ this must mean that”

    Even if there are claims in the Quran that are confined by science , that does not mean the entire book is true.

    Each claim falls or stands on its own merit.

    Can I ask you .

    I’ve heard lots of arguments for the existence of a god , from some Muslims , but mostly from Christians.
    ( As it happens, both use the same arguments)

    From what I’ve heard , and from my understanding ... I am not convinced.

    So would you say that until I am convinced then im right to be A-theist.
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-26-2019 at 08:48 PM.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    What do you mean by " this mean that"...I just told you so many things that science has just RECENTLY discovered...again and again we tell you to read the Quran and the life of Muhammad SAW. The prophecies he said which ALL are coming true...how would he know? He was illiterate and in the middle of nowhere. For example the most strongest one is the prediction of the state of arabs. Arabs back then were nomad and desert herders...they had no shoes and were so poor. He said one day they will compete with each other building tall lofty towers...if you take an look a Dubai the tallest building is there and they are building more towers. Saudi arabia is now building a tower even taller than that. Honestly man as I said it really depends on you...but you have analyze your self. Even after giving these things that are true. I still do not understand why deny? You honestly have to do your research. You cant expect everyone to give you all they know on an online forum.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The Kalam cosmological argument.
    Originated in Islam
    “ everything that begins to exist has a cause
    The universe began to exist
    The universe has a cause “
    That is the kalam cosmological argument

    It’s conclusion “ the universe has a cause “
    Its not the Kalam cosmological argument - although that is one in the tradition - Its actually called Burhan al Hudth which is also aided by Burhan al Huduth Ajsam and argument for prophets etc. Not to be confused with William Lane Graig's popularizing of one Kalam argument - there are a few. People like Al Ghazzali, Razi, Taftazani, Ibn Sina etc etc

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    How fast a religion grows or how many people believe it ... has zero bearing on its truth.
    At one time Christianity was the fastest growing religion in the planet , it shaped countries , changed entire continents
    Do this make Christianity true ... is Jesus a god?
    Thats because it has truth in it. It shows that Jesus pbuh is a prophet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    The Big Bang theory states the universe was a singularity that expanded, it does not state a universe came from nothing .
    spece time began with the big bang showing the Universe is contingent - do you have any proof to the contrary? so far you haven't provided a single one. You have not provided a deductive, Inductive, abductive or reasoning by analogy argument. so your position is irrational so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You make logical inferences because YOU BELIVE there is a god
    Just like the empty box , you can come to logical conclusions that are wrong, if you believe there is something in the box.
    I make logical inferences with the evidence we have. It shows the the Universe is contingent (had a beginning, has bodies, Changes etc). You haven't provided any contrary proof showing you have no rational argument to engage with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I’m not convinced gods or a god is real , I’ve seen no evidence nor heard any argument that would compel me to believe the claim
    “ some god exists” therefore I am not convinced some god (gods) exists ...
    This is not a rational argument - you have to prove the universe isnt contingent - if you cannot do that then the argument for the existence of God and prophets stands rationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Therefore the only rational position I can take is that of A-theism.
    No it isn't because no rational argument has been provided.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    A-theism , is a perfectly rational and logical position to hold.
    You haven't provided a single rational argument for your atheism - which of course makes it irrational. You shouldn't be ashamed of this Nietzsche, Jean Paul Sartre, Albert Camus thought it was Irrational as well. We might have a better and a more fulfilling conversation that way otherwise we can carry on the logic game......

    So the argument can you prove the universe isn't contingent?
    Last edited by Zafran; 07-27-2019 at 12:27 AM.
    Truth seeker

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Its not the Kalam cosmological argument - although that is one in the tradition - Its actually called Burhan al Hudth which is also aided by Burhan al Huduth Ajsam and argument for prophets etc. Not to be confused with William Lane Graig's popularizing of one Kalam argument - there are a few. People like Al Ghazzali, Razi, Taftazani, Ibn Sina etc etc

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thats because it has truth in it. It shows that Jesus pbuh is a prophet.

    - - - Updated - - -



    spece time began with the big bang showing the Universe is contingent - do you have any proof to the contrary? so far you haven't provided a single one. You have not provided a deductive, Inductive, abductive or reasoning by analogy argument. so your position is irrational so far.



    I make logical inferences with the evidence we have. It shows the the Universe is contingent (had a beginning, has bodies, Changes etc). You haven't provided any contrary proof showing you have no rational argument to engage with.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is not a rational argument - you have to prove the universe isnt contingent - if you cannot do that then the argument for the existence of God and prophets stands rationally.



    No it isn't because no rational argument has been provided.



    You haven't provided a single rational argument for your atheism - which of course makes it irrational. You shouldn't be ashamed of this Nietzsche, Jean Paul Sartre, Albert Camus thought it was Irrational as well. We might have a better and a more fulfilling conversation that way otherwise we can carry on the logic game......

    So the argument can you prove the universe isn't contingent?

    A rational argument for atheism
    Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
    Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
    You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

    Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.

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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    A rational argument for atheism
    Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
    Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
    You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

    Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.

    Did I say the universe is not contingent ... no
    I said , no one knows if the Big Bang was the beginning.

    https://www.sciencealert.com/mind-be...e-the-big-bang

    https://www.preposterousuniverse.com...-the-big-bang/

    http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

    Please read ALL this lecture by Stephen hawking carefully... pay particular attention to.

    “Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them”.

    “At this time, the Big Bang, all the matter in the universe, would have been on top of itself. The density would have been infinite. It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before, because the deterministic laws that govern the universe will break down in the Big Bang. The universe will evolve from the Big Bang, completely independently of what it was like before. Even the amount of matter in the universe, can be different to what it was before the Big Bang, as the Law of Conservation of Matter, will break down at the Big Bang”.
    ********************************************


    No one knows if the Big Bang was the beginning, we can make no observations to gain information about it.

    At no stage in the scientific understanding or in the theory of expansion ... is there a “nothing “

    There can’t “be” a nothing
    To be , is to be in a state of existence , nothing cannot be in a state of existence.

    If you like , I could provide more quotes from cosmologists saying they do not know if the Big Bang was the beginning.

    https://dailygalaxy.com/2017/12/befo...7-most-viewed/
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-27-2019 at 06:51 AM.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    A rational argument for atheism
    Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
    Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
    You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

    Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.
    I haven't find that argument convincing at all, simply because I agree with it

    Rather, I would say that atheism is a kind of ignorance, when one don't really bothers to look deep into peer's point of view.

    When a new scientific theory is being published, majority of scientists swiftly rejecting it because it goes against their established beliefs.
    One don't need to be convinced in theory, to try it. That's what science is based on, not mere sophisticated logical theoretization, but every little step being supported by experimental confirmation to sort out sometime beautifull but invalid theories.

    Like with the curvatute of universe's hypersphere, you can't setup local experiment about divine matters.
    Best you can do is to consider entire picture available.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    I haven't find that argument convincing at all, simply because I agree with it

    Rather, I would say that atheism is a kind of ignorance, when one don't really bothers to look deep into peer's point of view.

    When a new scientific theory is being published, majority of scientists swiftly rejecting it because it goes against their established beliefs.
    One don't need to be convinced in theory, to try it. That's what science is based on, not mere sophisticated logical theoretization, but every little step being supported by experimental confirmation to sort out sometime beautifull but invalid theories.

    Like with the curvatute of universe's hypersphere, you can't setup local experiment about divine matters.
    Best you can do is to consider entire picture available.
    You could be an atheist because of ignorance .

    If no one ever taught you about allah and Islam , if you had never heard of it , or had ever been told about the concept of a god or gods , then chances are you would be an atheist.

    Atheism is the position of not being convinced.
    For example , you are not convinced the Hindu gods are real , or the Norse or Greek gods ... so in relation to them you are A-theist.

    I am not convinced your god is real(I’m not convinced any gods are real)
    Therefore I am an atheist.

    Am I an atheist because of ignorance , it’s possible , but I have been talking to religious people (like yourself ) , I’ve been reading books , watching debates , listening to lectures , and from what I’ve come to understand.... I’m not convinced , since I’m unconvinced ... I have no choice but to be an atheist.

    I’m sure you would agree that if you are not convinced something is true .... then it’s only rational to not believe it’s true.

    ( please note , this is entirely separate from wether it is actually true or not)

    Atheism is only concerned with belief or lack of to be more precise , nothing else.
    I’m not saying you god does not exist ,or can not exist , only that I’m not convinced it exists.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You could be an atheist because of ignorance .

    If no one ever taught you about allah and Islam , if you had never heard of it , or had ever been told about the concept of a god or gods , then chances are you would be an atheist.

    Atheism is the position of not being convinced.
    For example , you are not convinced the Hindu gods are real , or the Norse or Greek gods ... so in relation to them you are A-theist.

    I am not convinced your god is real(I’m not convinced any gods are real)
    Therefore I am an atheist.

    Am I an atheist because of ignorance , it’s possible , but I have been talking to religious people (like yourself ) , I’ve been reading books , watching debates , listening to lectures , and from what I’ve come to understand.... I’m not convinced , since I’m unconvinced ... I have no choice but to be an atheist.

    I’m sure you would agree that if you are not convinced something is true .... then it’s only rational to not believe it’s true.

    ( please note , this is entirely separate from wether it is actually true or not)

    Atheism is only concerned with belief or lack of to be more precise , nothing else.
    I’m not saying you god does not exist ,or can not exist , only that I’m not convinced it exists.
    Not being convinced is an agnosticism.
    Atheism, like any other fanaticism, is avoiding even to consider what is against your established beliefs.

    Yes, you are kind of talking to people here.
    But do you really seek for truth or just playing around to entertain yourself?
    Did you get anything for yourself from this thread other than a feeling of superiority?
    Did any post make you to think?

    As what I see in this conversation, you are answering everyone but doing this swiftly, for a simpliest part of the post, more like for a sport of argument rather than considering seriously to ponder ideas you were introduced to.

    I admit, this can be overwhelming, I myself don't even read fully other posts.
    But bro, this is kind of your thread, if you have not enough time to go through everything thoroughly, take your time, discuss in details if found anything interesting.

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    Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    Not being convinced is an agnosticism.
    Atheism, like any other fanaticism, is avoiding even to consider what is against your established beliefs.

    Yes, you are kind of talking to people here.
    But do you really seek for truth or just playing around to entertain yourself?
    Did you get anything for yourself from this thread other than a feeling of superiority?
    Did any post make you to think?

    As what I see in this conversation, you are answering everyone but doing this swiftly, for a simpliest part of the post, more like for a sport of argument rather than considering seriously to ponder ideas you were introduced to.

    I admit, this can be overwhelming, I myself don't even read fully other posts.
    But bro, this is kind of your thread, if you have not enough time to go through everything thoroughly, take your time, discuss in details if found anything interesting.
    Agnosticism is not knowing
    Atheism is not believing .

    The reason I can answer these posts quickly , is because I’ve spend the better part of 7-8 years thinking about these things , debating with Christians , jews and a few Hindus ,
    All the arguments you use , are used by other faiths to argue for the truth of their gods , nearly verbatim.

    Even the appeals to read the holy book
    “ if you just read the book with an open mind , and an open heart “
    I’ve hears from Christians, jews, and Hindus.

    They all claim the book is special , that it has been revealed by a god.

    I was hoping when I came on here that I would see some new argument or angle , but so far nothing.

    I’ve been thinking about this stuff , and investigating it , which is why I know about the laws of logic, the Big Bang theory, solipsism, it’s why I know about the kalam cosmological argument, argument from design , argument for contingency, morality etc .... I’ve been considering the “evidence “
    So far I’m not convinced ... so I’m an atheist
    Last edited by chalks75; 07-27-2019 at 05:42 PM.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Agnosticism is not knowing
    Atheism is not believing .

    The reason I can answer these posts quickly , is because I’ve spend the better part of 7-8 years thinking about these things , debating with Christians , jews and a few Hindus ,
    All the arguments you use , are used by other faiths to argue for the truth of their gods , nearly verbatim.

    Even the appeals to read the holy book
    “ if you just read the book with an open mind , and an open heart “
    I’ve hears from Christians, jews, and Hindus.

    They all claim the book is special , that it has been revealed by a god.

    I was hoping when I came on here that I would see some new argument or angle , but so far nothing.

    I’ve been thinking about this stuff , and investigating it , which is why I know about the laws of logic, the Big Bang theory, solipsism, it’s why I know about the kalam cosmological argument, argument from design , argument for contingency, morality etc .... I’ve been considering the “evidence “
    So far I’m not convinced ... so I’m an atheist
    Indeed, you have a great experience of debating, perhaps you did some research before.
    But what is it now about? Don't you feel like you've tired of research and rather aiming to convince others in atheism?

    I was hoping when I came on here that I would see some new argument or angle , but so far nothing.
    Then you didn't look properly.
    I can't say about others, but what I was posting is from my own theory which I posted nowhere but in this forum.
    If you have seen it elsewhere, I will really appreciate a link for.

    You simply have ignored math/physics staff, which I planted as a hook for a would be lengthy conversation. At least you have reacted about REM-thinking, admitting having no knowledge about.

    So, do you admit that you don't really understand all arguments you are introduced to? That perhaps there are some theories behind your ability to grasp?

    The best you can do is to estimate validity of such theories based on the authority of the sources.
    Well, you will be right to dismiss my theory as from some unknown guy bearing no authority other than a nickname
    But for authority, consider that, majority of greatest scientists, nobel-prize winners do believe in God.
    What differs great scientist from ordinary one is the strong intuition, ability to use their unconscious thinking.

    If you are looking for a simple logical proof of religion to be truth, there is none so far, all beliefs are rooted in unconscious more or less.
    May be in the future we will have simple logical explanation available for high school alumni. Perhaps that would be too late to benefit from it, In Islam such times referred as the Day of Judgement.
    How sorry many of us for not considering BitCoin seriously at it's early appearance.
    Last edited by Physicist; 07-27-2019 at 08:06 PM.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    Indeed, you have a great experience of debating, perhaps you did some research before.
    But what is it now about? Don't you feel like you've tired of research and rather aiming to convince others in atheism?



    Then you didn't look properly.
    I can't say about others, but what I was posting is from my own theory which I posted nowhere but in this forum.
    If you have seen it elsewhere, I will really appreciate a link for.

    You simply have ignored math/physics staff, which I planted as a hook for a would be lengthy conversation. At least you have reacted about REM-thinking, admitting having no knowledge about.

    So, do you admit that you don't really understand all arguments you are introduced to? That perhaps there are some theories behind your ability to grasp?

    The best you can do is to estimate validity of such theories based on the authority of the sources.
    Well, you will be right to dismiss my theory as from some unknown guy bearing no authority other than a nickname
    But for authority, consider that, majority of greatest scientists, nobel-prize winners do believe in God.
    What differs great scientist from ordinary one is the strong intuition, ability to use their unconscious thinking.

    If you are looking for a simple logical proof of religion to be truth, there is none so far, all beliefs are rooted in unconscious more or less.
    May be in the future we will have simple logical explanation available for high school alumni. Perhaps that would be too late to benefit from it, In Islam such times referred as the Day of Judgement.
    How sorry many of us for not considering BitCoin seriously at it's early appearance.
    I’ve been thinking and looking into this stuff for years ...
    There is no way , I would believe so something just because a person of “ authority” said it’s true , that is s logical fallacy ( argument from ignorance)

    If you feel I have ignored any points you have raised , i do apologise , I try my best to address points raised, if I’ve missed something feel free to remind me.

    You said there is no logical proof for religion

    If this is the case , then I have no reason to believe it’s true.

    I’m not trying to convince you to be an atheist , I’m trying to understand why you believe the things you do.
    And maybe , encourage you to ask yourself , why you believe the things you do .

    It’s healthy to take stock every now and then , to examine your thinking .

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Delete Mods
    Last edited by Zafran; 07-28-2019 at 01:40 AM.
    Truth seeker

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Truth seeker

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    Last edited by Zafran; 07-28-2019 at 01:40 AM.
    Truth seeker

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I’ve been thinking and looking into this stuff for years ...
    There is no way , I would believe so something just because a person of “ authority” said it’s true , that is s logical fallacy ( argument from ignorance)

    If you feel I have ignored any points you have raised , i do apologise , I try my best to address points raised, if I’ve missed something feel free to remind me.

    You said there is no logical proof for religion

    If this is the case , then I have no reason to believe it’s true.
    yes you have. There is no proof that God exists. if there was proof, then our entire existence on earth would be useless. Our phase on Earth is just a test. It is all about believing. If we could logically proof that God exists, then we wouldn't need to believe anymore, faith would not be needed.

    So it is only logical that there is no proof for religion.

    But you have something else to believe it's true...which are miracles.
    Definition of miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
    in other words, the chance of happening is impossible, and yet it happens.
    One of these miracles is the revelation of the Quran. I already mentioned that our prophet sas was illiterate...which is a fact.
    He dictated the whole Quraan to us which is also a fact.
    Not one character in the Quraan can be proven faulty by science...which is also a fact.

    It is a miracle that an illiterate person can dictate an entire book with over 600 pages flawlessly...1400 years ago and in such a way that science nowadays cannot find any contradictions in it.

    You cannot ignore this. you can only believe in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post

    I’m not trying to convince you to be an atheist , I’m trying to understand why you believe the things you do.
    And maybe , encourage you to ask yourself , why you believe the things you do .

    It’s healthy to take stock every now and then , to examine your thinking .
    you have nothing to prove that God exists. you have nothing to prove how the universe came into existence...But...
    You have some information GIVEN to you...which are said revelations from God.
    This information has been obtained miaculously and the content is flawless.

    The least you should do examine the given information and to test whether there are contradictions in it or not.
    Anything less than flawless means the information is NOT divine.

    What you cannot do, is just ignore it as a scientist...

    So you have the burden of proof that the Quraan is anything less than flawless.

    You cannot expect from us to prove that something is perfect. How do you do that? you look for errors...The Quraan has no errors...
    If you can find any, you have a right to disbelieve...untill then, you have a job to do as an atheist.
    | Likes HabibUrrehman liked this post

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    yes you have. There is no proof that God exists. if there was proof, then our entire existence on earth would be useless. Our phase on Earth is just a test. It is all about believing. If we could logically proof that God exists, then we wouldn't need to believe anymore, faith would not be needed.

    So it is only logical that there is no proof for religion.

    But you have something else to believe it's true...which are miracles.
    Definition of miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
    in other words, the chance of happening is impossible, and yet it happens.
    One of these miracles is the revelation of the Quran. I already mentioned that our prophet sas was illiterate...which is a fact.
    He dictated the whole Quraan to us which is also a fact.
    Not one character in the Quraan can be proven faulty by science...which is also a fact.

    It is a miracle that an illiterate person can dictate an entire book with over 600 pages flawlessly...1400 years ago and in such a way that science nowadays cannot find any contradictions in it.

    You cannot ignore this. you can only believe in it.


    you have nothing to prove that God exists. you have nothing to prove how the universe came into existence...But...
    You have some information GIVEN to you...which are said revelations from God.
    This information has been obtained miaculously and the content is flawless.

    The least you should do examine the given information and to test whether there are contradictions in it or not.
    Anything less than flawless means the information is NOT divine.

    What you cannot do, is just ignore it as a scientist...

    So you have the burden of proof that the Quraan is anything less than flawless.

    You cannot expect from us to prove that something is perfect. How do you do that? you look for errors...The Quraan has no errors...
    If you can find any, you have a right to disbelieve...untill then, you have a job to do as an atheist.
    You said
    “ there is no proof a god exists , it’s all about believing “

    If that is the case, if there is no proof
    Then I have no reason to believe .

    Yeas you claim Muhammad was illiterate
    And , I will believe that as soon as you can prove it.
    Claims are not evidence.
    The Quran is evidence , it’s the claim.

    The Quran says the sun is stationary ... it is not ,not only does it spin on its axis, it is part of a spinning spiral galaxy, which in itself is moving through space ... but people didn’t know that in the Bronze Age.

    If something is internally consistent , that does not make it true .

    How do you know it’s flawless , how do you know it says what it’s meant to say.

    You make quite a few assertions , and you have no way to Demonstrate they are true.

    If you cannot demonstrate they are true ... I have no reason to believe they are true.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You said
    “ there is no proof a god exists , it’s all about believing “

    If that is the case, if there is no proof
    Then I have no reason to believe .
    Your decision, your loss. nobody is forcing you to believe...arguments and evidences have been presented to you, miracles have been pointed out.
    up to you whether to ignore and reject all that or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post

    Yeas you claim Muhammad was illiterate
    And , I will believe that as soon as you can prove it.
    again, investigate that and you will find out. there is very little disagreement about this. even non-muslim scholars who neccessarily publish good things about our prophet do not question that he was illiterate. So I really do not have the urge to find legio of publications for you just to show you that he was. if you really were interested in the truth, you would already investigate this on your own. so...you got this.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post

    Claims are not evidence.
    The Quran is evidence , it’s the claim.
    Claim is that the Quraan is divine. the whole miracle how it came into existence in such circumstances and its flawless content support that, and is therefore evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post

    The Quran says the sun is stationary ... it is not ,not only does it spin on its axis, it is part of a spinning spiral galaxy, which in itself is moving through space ... but people didn’t know that in the Bronze Age.
    First of all, Where did you get this from? please provide verse number.
    Secondly, have you checked the verse about translation errors?
    Thirldly, motion is relative. one could say the moon is stationary and everything else revolves in some complex pattern around the moon....that would make one complex model but technically it would still be correct....so what are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post

    If something is internally consistent , that does not make it true .

    How do you know it’s flawless , how do you know it says what it’s meant to say.

    You make quite a few assertions , and you have no way to Demonstrate they are true.

    If you cannot demonstrate they are true ... I have no reason to believe they are true.
    It is flawless because it is in harmony with science. It is flawles because modern science untill today cannot prove one single flaw in the Quraan.
    If there are, please present. if you cannot find any flaws in it, then it is flawless, as easy as that...
    Problemm with you is that you just want to argue...you have no interest in the truth...and therefore too lazy to investigate the truth...you would if you were interested enough.
    So, I do not feel obligated to search things for you...sorry about that.
    | Likes loneseeker liked this post

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    Your decision, your loss. nobody is forcing you to believe...arguments and evidences have been presented to you, miracles have been pointed out.
    up to you whether to ignore and reject all that or not.



    again, investigate that and you will find out. there is very little disagreement about this. even non-muslim scholars who neccessarily publish good things about our prophet do not question that he was illiterate. So I really do not have the urge to find legio of publications for you just to show you that he was. if you really were interested in the truth, you would already investigate this on your own. so...you got this.


    Claim is that the Quraan is divine. the whole miracle how it came into existence in such circumstances and its flawless content support that, and is therefore evidence.

    First of all, Where did you get this from? please provide verse number.
    Secondly, have you checked the verse about translation errors?
    Thirldly, motion is relative. one could say the moon is stationary and everything else revolves in some complex pattern around the moon....that would make one complex model but technically it would still be correct....so what are you talking about?


    It is flawless because it is in harmony with science. It is flawles because modern science untill today cannot prove one single flaw in the Quraan.
    If there are, please present. if you cannot find any flaws in it, then it is flawless, as easy as that...
    Problemm with you is that you just want to argue...you have no interest in the truth...and therefore too lazy to investigate the truth...you would if you were interested enough.
    So, I do not feel obligated to search things for you...sorry about that.
    You could say the moon is stationary ... but you would be wrong.

    I’m not sure of the quote from the Quran.
    It was presented by another poster on the forum as “ evidence” of the Quran being in harmony with science.

    I think he was trying to say that the Quran predicted the heliocentric model of the universe .
    The quote said something like the sun was stationary , which is completely untrue
    The sun has 3 different ranges of motion.
    https://youtu.be/C4V-ooITrws

    What you claim to be miracles have been pointed out , I don’t agree they are miracles, and they haven’t been demonstrated.

    Does the Quran day that we evolved , that we have s common ancestor with apes ?
    If not, then it’s not in harmony with science.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    I think I’ve heard enough.

    I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
    I came on here hoping to hear something different.

    The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
    The way of thinking , the same
    The false confidence , the same.

    I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
    That was never my intention.

    I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

    I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
    Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

    Good luck for the future
    All the best .

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    You could say the moon is stationary ... but you would be wrong.
    Do you understand what "relative" even means? It means in order to detect motion, you first have to choose a reference point. the object then moves compaired to the reference point.
    you could theoretically choose your reference point somewhere on the moon and then you would see that everything revolves around the moon.
    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I’m not sure of the quote from the Quran.
    It was presented by another poster on the forum as “ evidence” of the Quran being in harmony with science.

    I think he was trying to say that the Quran predicted the heliocentric model of the universe .
    The quote said something like the sun was stationary , which is completely untrue
    The sun has 3 different ranges of motion.
    https://youtu.be/C4V-ooITrws
    You do not have to try to present me sources for the movement of the sun...I am familiar with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    What you claim to be miracles have been pointed out , I don’t agree they are miracles, and they haven’t been demonstrated.

    Does the Quran day that we evolved , that we have s common ancestor with apes ?
    If not, then it’s not in harmony with science.
    We do not even know whether evolution theory is true or not...so science itself can be wrong about that. However, we support that evolution could be a tool God used to create living flora and fauna on earth.

    clues for that? we believe that God created Adam as from clay, dirt...basically the building material from earth. when we die, our bodies rot away and become a part of earth again.
    So do animals and plants when they die. so, they are also made from the same material as humans.

    Evolution does not neccessarily mean animals have been developing on their own. God was always in the background...every single mutation.
    So highly possible...but not on its own.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I think I’ve heard enough.

    I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
    I came on here hoping to hear something different.

    The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
    The way of thinking , the same
    The false confidence , the same.

    I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
    That was never my intention.

    I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

    I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
    Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

    Good luck for the future
    All the best .
    No, you never considered a single thing we said...you just came here to argue....and yet we still trying to answer your questions patiently.
    But you are not doing your homework.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I think I’ve heard enough.

    I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
    I came on here hoping to hear something different.

    The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
    The way of thinking , the same
    The false confidence , the same.

    I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
    That was never my intention.

    I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

    I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
    Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

    Good luck for the future
    All the best .
    The same??? Lol! As I suspected, you have ignored all the differences I elucidated between other faiths and ours to show you how they are NOT the same and we really have convincing and overwhelming proof for our religion unlike the others'

    1. Islam is the only rational and according to science religion
    2. Muslims are the only people who believe in their faith without doubt
    3. We are the only religion with countless miracles in our scriptures not least the scientific one's

    Etc etc

    But as predicted, you have ignored all of this so you can carry on your 'excuses' to remain an athiest!

    You are another proof of Islam:

    002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
    002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.


    Just a quick explanation of that last verse, this basically means the desbeliever himself seals his heart ears and mind from Truth (by ignoring evidences and being insincere like you have) and the part Allah plays in it is that he enables it all as nothing can happen without His will


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