Truth seeker

What do you mean by " this mean that"...I just told you so many things that science has just RECENTLY discovered...again and again we tell you to read the Quran and the life of Muhammad SAW. The prophecies he said which ALL are coming true...how would he know? He was illiterate and in the middle of nowhere. For example the most strongest one is the prediction of the state of arabs. Arabs back then were nomad and desert herders...they had no shoes and were so poor. He said one day they will compete with each other building tall lofty towers...if you take an look a Dubai the tallest building is there and they are building more towers. Saudi arabia is now building a tower even taller than that. Honestly man as I said it really depends on you...but you have analyze your self. Even after giving these things that are true. I still do not understand why deny? You honestly have to do your research. You cant expect everyone to give you all they know on an online forum.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

Its not the Kalam cosmological argument - although that is one in the tradition - Its actually called Burhan al Hudth which is also aided by Burhan al Huduth Ajsam and argument for prophets etc. Not to be confused with William Lane Graig's popularizing of one Kalam argument - there are a few. People like Al Ghazzali, Razi, Taftazani, Ibn Sina etc etc

- - - Updated - - -



Thats because it has truth in it. It shows that Jesus pbuh is a prophet.

- - - Updated - - -



spece time began with the big bang showing the Universe is contingent - do you have any proof to the contrary? so far you haven't provided a single one. You have not provided a deductive, Inductive, abductive or reasoning by analogy argument. so your position is irrational so far.



I make logical inferences with the evidence we have. It shows the the Universe is contingent (had a beginning, has bodies, Changes etc). You haven't provided any contrary proof showing you have no rational argument to engage with.

- - - Updated - - -



This is not a rational argument - you have to prove the universe isnt contingent - if you cannot do that then the argument for the existence of God and prophets stands rationally.



No it isn't because no rational argument has been provided.



You haven't provided a single rational argument for your atheism - which of course makes it irrational. You shouldn't be ashamed of this Nietzsche, Jean Paul Sartre, Albert Camus thought it was Irrational as well. We might have a better and a more fulfilling conversation that way otherwise we can carry on the logic game......

So the argument can you prove the universe isn't contingent?

A rational argument for atheism
Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

A rational argument for atheism
Do you think it’s rational to believe something , that you are not convinced is true ?
Atheism is not a claim to knowledge, it’s a rejection of your claim that “ some god exists”
You have the burden of proof to prove your claim is true , I do not have to disprove it.

Until you prove it to my satisfaction .... am I not right to disbelieve it.

I haven't find that argument convincing at all, simply because I agree with it

Rather, I would say that atheism is a kind of ignorance, when one don't really bothers to look deep into peer's point of view.

When a new scientific theory is being published, majority of scientists swiftly rejecting it because it goes against their established beliefs.
One don't need to be convinced in theory, to try it. That's what science is based on, not mere sophisticated logical theoretization, but every little step being supported by experimental confirmation to sort out sometime beautifull but invalid theories.

Like with the curvatute of universe's hypersphere, you can't setup local experiment about divine matters.
Best you can do is to consider entire picture available.

format_quote Originally Posted by Physicist

I haven't find that argument convincing at all, simply because I agree with it

Rather, I would say that atheism is a kind of ignorance, when one don't really bothers to look deep into peer's point of view.

When a new scientific theory is being published, majority of scientists swiftly rejecting it because it goes against their established beliefs.
One don't need to be convinced in theory, to try it. That's what science is based on, not mere sophisticated logical theoretization, but every little step being supported by experimental confirmation to sort out sometime beautifull but invalid theories.

Like with the curvatute of universe's hypersphere, you can't setup local experiment about divine matters.
Best you can do is to consider entire picture available.

You could be an atheist because of ignorance .

If no one ever taught you about allah and Islam , if you had never heard of it , or had ever been told about the concept of a god or gods , then chances are you would be an atheist.

Atheism is the position of not being convinced.
For example , you are not convinced the Hindu gods are real , or the Norse or Greek gods ... so in relation to them you are A-theist.

I am not convinced your god is real(I’m not convinced any gods are real)
Therefore I am an atheist.

Am I an atheist because of ignorance , it’s possible , but I have been talking to religious people (like yourself ) , I’ve been reading books , watching debates , listening to lectures , and from what I’ve come to understand.... I’m not convinced , since I’m unconvinced ... I have no choice but to be an atheist.

I’m sure you would agree that if you are not convinced something is true .... then it’s only rational to not believe it’s true.

( please note , this is entirely separate from wether it is actually true or not)

Atheism is only concerned with belief or lack of to be more precise , nothing else.
I’m not saying you god does not exist ,or can not exist , only that I’m not convinced it exists.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

You could be an atheist because of ignorance .

If no one ever taught you about allah and Islam , if you had never heard of it , or had ever been told about the concept of a god or gods , then chances are you would be an atheist.

Atheism is the position of not being convinced.
For example , you are not convinced the Hindu gods are real , or the Norse or Greek gods ... so in relation to them you are A-theist.

I am not convinced your god is real(I’m not convinced any gods are real)
Therefore I am an atheist.

Am I an atheist because of ignorance , it’s possible , but I have been talking to religious people (like yourself ) , I’ve been reading books , watching debates , listening to lectures , and from what I’ve come to understand.... I’m not convinced , since I’m unconvinced ... I have no choice but to be an atheist.

I’m sure you would agree that if you are not convinced something is true .... then it’s only rational to not believe it’s true.

( please note , this is entirely separate from wether it is actually true or not)

Atheism is only concerned with belief or lack of to be more precise , nothing else.
I’m not saying you god does not exist ,or can not exist , only that I’m not convinced it exists.

Not being convinced is an agnosticism.
Atheism, like any other fanaticism, is avoiding even to consider what is against your established beliefs.

Yes, you are kind of talking to people here.
But do you really seek for truth or just playing around to entertain yourself?
Did you get anything for yourself from this thread other than a feeling of superiority?
Did any post make you to think?

As what I see in this conversation, you are answering everyone but doing this swiftly, for a simpliest part of the post, more like for a sport of argument rather than considering seriously to ponder ideas you were introduced to.

I admit, this can be overwhelming, I myself don't even read fully other posts.
But bro, this is kind of your thread, if you have not enough time to go through everything thoroughly, take your time, discuss in details if found anything interesting.

format_quote Originally Posted by Physicist

Indeed, you have a great experience of debating, perhaps you did some research before.
But what is it now about? Don't you feel like you've tired of research and rather aiming to convince others in atheism?



Then you didn't look properly.
I can't say about others, but what I was posting is from my own theory which I posted nowhere but in this forum.
If you have seen it elsewhere, I will really appreciate a link for.

You simply have ignored math/physics staff, which I planted as a hook for a would be lengthy conversation. At least you have reacted about REM-thinking, admitting having no knowledge about.

So, do you admit that you don't really understand all arguments you are introduced to? That perhaps there are some theories behind your ability to grasp?

The best you can do is to estimate validity of such theories based on the authority of the sources.
Well, you will be right to dismiss my theory as from some unknown guy bearing no authority other than a nickname
But for authority, consider that, majority of greatest scientists, nobel-prize winners do believe in God.
What differs great scientist from ordinary one is the strong intuition, ability to use their unconscious thinking.

If you are looking for a simple logical proof of religion to be truth, there is none so far, all beliefs are rooted in unconscious more or less.
May be in the future we will have simple logical explanation available for high school alumni. Perhaps that would be too late to benefit from it, In Islam such times referred as the Day of Judgement.
How sorry many of us for not considering BitCoin seriously at it's early appearance.

I’ve been thinking and looking into this stuff for years ...
There is no way , I would believe so something just because a person of “ authority” said it’s true , that is s logical fallacy ( argument from ignorance)

If you feel I have ignored any points you have raised , i do apologise , I try my best to address points raised, if I’ve missed something feel free to remind me.

You said there is no logical proof for religion

If this is the case , then I have no reason to believe it’s true.

I’m not trying to convince you to be an atheist , I’m trying to understand why you believe the things you do.
And maybe , encourage you to ask yourself , why you believe the things you do .

It’s healthy to take stock every now and then , to examine your thinking .

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

I’ve been thinking and looking into this stuff for years ...
There is no way , I would believe so something just because a person of “ authority” said it’s true , that is s logical fallacy ( argument from ignorance)

If you feel I have ignored any points you have raised , i do apologise , I try my best to address points raised, if I’ve missed something feel free to remind me.

You said there is no logical proof for religion

If this is the case , then I have no reason to believe it’s true.

yes you have. There is no proof that God exists. if there was proof, then our entire existence on earth would be useless. Our phase on Earth is just a test. It is all about believing. If we could logically proof that God exists, then we wouldn't need to believe anymore, faith would not be needed.

So it is only logical that there is no proof for religion.

But you have something else to believe it's true...which are miracles.
Definition of miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
in other words, the chance of happening is impossible, and yet it happens.
One of these miracles is the revelation of the Quran. I already mentioned that our prophet sas was illiterate...which is a fact.
He dictated the whole Quraan to us which is also a fact.
Not one character in the Quraan can be proven faulty by science...which is also a fact.

It is a miracle that an illiterate person can dictate an entire book with over 600 pages flawlessly...1400 years ago and in such a way that science nowadays cannot find any contradictions in it.

You cannot ignore this. you can only believe in it.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

I’m not trying to convince you to be an atheist , I’m trying to understand why you believe the things you do.
And maybe , encourage you to ask yourself , why you believe the things you do .

It’s healthy to take stock every now and then , to examine your thinking .

you have nothing to prove that God exists. you have nothing to prove how the universe came into existence...But...
You have some information GIVEN to you...which are said revelations from God.
This information has been obtained miaculously and the content is flawless.

The least you should do examine the given information and to test whether there are contradictions in it or not.
Anything less than flawless means the information is NOT divine.

What you cannot do, is just ignore it as a scientist...

So you have the burden of proof that the Quraan is anything less than flawless.

You cannot expect from us to prove that something is perfect. How do you do that? you look for errors...The Quraan has no errors...
If you can find any, you have a right to disbelieve...untill then, you have a job to do as an atheist.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

yes you have. There is no proof that God exists. if there was proof, then our entire existence on earth would be useless. Our phase on Earth is just a test. It is all about believing. If we could logically proof that God exists, then we wouldn't need to believe anymore, faith would not be needed.

So it is only logical that there is no proof for religion.

But you have something else to believe it's true...which are miracles.
Definition of miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
in other words, the chance of happening is impossible, and yet it happens.
One of these miracles is the revelation of the Quran. I already mentioned that our prophet sas was illiterate...which is a fact.
He dictated the whole Quraan to us which is also a fact.
Not one character in the Quraan can be proven faulty by science...which is also a fact.

It is a miracle that an illiterate person can dictate an entire book with over 600 pages flawlessly...1400 years ago and in such a way that science nowadays cannot find any contradictions in it.

You cannot ignore this. you can only believe in it.


you have nothing to prove that God exists. you have nothing to prove how the universe came into existence...But...
You have some information GIVEN to you...which are said revelations from God.
This information has been obtained miaculously and the content is flawless.

The least you should do examine the given information and to test whether there are contradictions in it or not.
Anything less than flawless means the information is NOT divine.

What you cannot do, is just ignore it as a scientist...

So you have the burden of proof that the Quraan is anything less than flawless.

You cannot expect from us to prove that something is perfect. How do you do that? you look for errors...The Quraan has no errors...
If you can find any, you have a right to disbelieve...untill then, you have a job to do as an atheist.

You said
“ there is no proof a god exists , it’s all about believing “

If that is the case, if there is no proof
Then I have no reason to believe .

Yeas you claim Muhammad was illiterate
And , I will believe that as soon as you can prove it.
Claims are not evidence.
The Quran is evidence , it’s the claim.

The Quran says the sun is stationary ... it is not ,not only does it spin on its axis, it is part of a spinning spiral galaxy, which in itself is moving through space ... but people didn’t know that in the Bronze Age.

If something is internally consistent , that does not make it true .

How do you know it’s flawless , how do you know it says what it’s meant to say.

You make quite a few assertions , and you have no way to Demonstrate they are true.

If you cannot demonstrate they are true ... I have no reason to believe they are true.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

You said
“ there is no proof a god exists , it’s all about believing “

If that is the case, if there is no proof
Then I have no reason to believe .

Your decision, your loss. nobody is forcing you to believe...arguments and evidences have been presented to you, miracles have been pointed out.
up to you whether to ignore and reject all that or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

Yeas you claim Muhammad was illiterate
And , I will believe that as soon as you can prove it.

again, investigate that and you will find out. there is very little disagreement about this. even non-muslim scholars who neccessarily publish good things about our prophet do not question that he was illiterate. So I really do not have the urge to find legio of publications for you just to show you that he was. if you really were interested in the truth, you would already investigate this on your own. so...you got this.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

Claims are not evidence.
The Quran is evidence , it’s the claim.

Claim is that the Quraan is divine. the whole miracle how it came into existence in such circumstances and its flawless content support that, and is therefore evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

The Quran says the sun is stationary ... it is not ,not only does it spin on its axis, it is part of a spinning spiral galaxy, which in itself is moving through space ... but people didn’t know that in the Bronze Age.

First of all, Where did you get this from? please provide verse number.
Secondly, have you checked the verse about translation errors?
Thirldly, motion is relative. one could say the moon is stationary and everything else revolves in some complex pattern around the moon....that would make one complex model but technically it would still be correct....so what are you talking about?

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

If something is internally consistent , that does not make it true .

How do you know it’s flawless , how do you know it says what it’s meant to say.

You make quite a few assertions , and you have no way to Demonstrate they are true.

If you cannot demonstrate they are true ... I have no reason to believe they are true.

It is flawless because it is in harmony with science. It is flawles because modern science untill today cannot prove one single flaw in the Quraan.
If there are, please present. if you cannot find any flaws in it, then it is flawless, as easy as that...
Problemm with you is that you just want to argue...you have no interest in the truth...and therefore too lazy to investigate the truth...you would if you were interested enough.
So, I do not feel obligated to search things for you...sorry about that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

Your decision, your loss. nobody is forcing you to believe...arguments and evidences have been presented to you, miracles have been pointed out.
up to you whether to ignore and reject all that or not.



again, investigate that and you will find out. there is very little disagreement about this. even non-muslim scholars who neccessarily publish good things about our prophet do not question that he was illiterate. So I really do not have the urge to find legio of publications for you just to show you that he was. if you really were interested in the truth, you would already investigate this on your own. so...you got this.


Claim is that the Quraan is divine. the whole miracle how it came into existence in such circumstances and its flawless content support that, and is therefore evidence.

First of all, Where did you get this from? please provide verse number.
Secondly, have you checked the verse about translation errors?
Thirldly, motion is relative. one could say the moon is stationary and everything else revolves in some complex pattern around the moon....that would make one complex model but technically it would still be correct....so what are you talking about?


It is flawless because it is in harmony with science. It is flawles because modern science untill today cannot prove one single flaw in the Quraan.
If there are, please present. if you cannot find any flaws in it, then it is flawless, as easy as that...
Problemm with you is that you just want to argue...you have no interest in the truth...and therefore too lazy to investigate the truth...you would if you were interested enough.
So, I do not feel obligated to search things for you...sorry about that.

You could say the moon is stationary ... but you would be wrong.

I’m not sure of the quote from the Quran.
It was presented by another poster on the forum as “ evidence” of the Quran being in harmony with science.

I think he was trying to say that the Quran predicted the heliocentric model of the universe .
The quote said something like the sun was stationary , which is completely untrue
The sun has 3 different ranges of motion.
https://youtu.be/C4V-ooITrws

What you claim to be miracles have been pointed out , I don’t agree they are miracles, and they haven’t been demonstrated.

Does the Quran day that we evolved , that we have s common ancestor with apes ?
If not, then it’s not in harmony with science.

I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

You could say the moon is stationary ... but you would be wrong.

Do you understand what "relative" even means? It means in order to detect motion, you first have to choose a reference point. the object then moves compaired to the reference point.
you could theoretically choose your reference point somewhere on the moon and then you would see that everything revolves around the moon.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

I’m not sure of the quote from the Quran.
It was presented by another poster on the forum as “ evidence” of the Quran being in harmony with science.

I think he was trying to say that the Quran predicted the heliocentric model of the universe .
The quote said something like the sun was stationary , which is completely untrue
The sun has 3 different ranges of motion.
https://youtu.be/C4V-ooITrws

You do not have to try to present me sources for the movement of the sun...I am familiar with that.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

What you claim to be miracles have been pointed out , I don’t agree they are miracles, and they haven’t been demonstrated.

Does the Quran day that we evolved , that we have s common ancestor with apes ?
If not, then it’s not in harmony with science.

We do not even know whether evolution theory is true or not...so science itself can be wrong about that. However, we support that evolution could be a tool God used to create living flora and fauna on earth.

clues for that? we believe that God created Adam as from clay, dirt...basically the building material from earth. when we die, our bodies rot away and become a part of earth again.
So do animals and plants when they die. so, they are also made from the same material as humans.

Evolution does not neccessarily mean animals have been developing on their own. God was always in the background...every single mutation.
So highly possible...but not on its own.

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .

No, you never considered a single thing we said...you just came here to argue....and yet we still trying to answer your questions patiently.
But you are not doing your homework.

format_quote Originally Posted by chalks75

I think I’ve heard enough.

I’ve been talking with people of other faiths for years ,
I came on here hoping to hear something different.

The arguments are the exact same , the appeals to authority the same , the claims of revealed knowledge , the same.
The way of thinking , the same
The false confidence , the same.

I thank you for taking the time to answer my questions , I appreciate it , hopefully I didn’t offend you or anyone reading .
That was never my intention.

I wasn’t convinced gods are real , I’m still not .

I think gods are a concept we created , to try and explain the universe and our place in it,
Gods exist in the minds of believers , like Santa exists in the minds of children.

Good luck for the future
All the best .

The same??? Lol! As I suspected, you have ignored all the differences I elucidated between other faiths and ours to show you how they are NOT the same and we really have convincing and overwhelming proof for our religion unlike the others'

1. Islam is the only rational and according to science religion
2. Muslims are the only people who believe in their faith without doubt
3. We are the only religion with countless miracles in our scriptures not least the scientific one's

Etc etc

But as predicted, you have ignored all of this so you can carry on your 'excuses' to remain an athiest!

You are another proof of Islam:

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.


Just a quick explanation of that last verse, this basically means the desbeliever himself seals his heart ears and mind from Truth (by ignoring evidences and being insincere like you have) and the part Allah plays in it is that he enables it all as nothing can happen without His will