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Thread: Truth seeker

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    Truth seeker

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    Hi , my name is chalky
    I’m not religious , il lay my cards on the table , I’m an atheist , I’m here because I’m curious of why people believe the things they do.
    What convinces people that a particular version of a particular god is real.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Hi chalky and welcome!

    The Quran is full of miracles which proves that it's from God so that's why we believe

    Check out it's miracles:

    http://www.miracles-of-quran.com/

    Also see:

    https://youtu.be/zh0Sc9Dz7Ks

    Miracles of Quran
    Miracles of Quran...

    Miracles of Quran
    Miracles of Quran...
    | Likes HabibUrrehman liked this post

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    Hi chalky and welcome!

    The Quran is full of miracles which proves that it's from God so that's why we believe

    Check out it's miracles:

    http://www.miracles-of-quran.com/

    Also see:

    https://youtu.be/zh0Sc9Dz7Ks

    Miracles of Quran
    Miracles of Quran...

    Miracles of Quran
    Miracles of Quran...

    Muslims are not the only people of faith that claim “ miracles “,
    Christians , jews, Buddhists , as a matter of fact , every religion that has ever existed has claimed miracles .

    Is it possible that you .... like them ... are wrong ?

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Since you are an atheist, I think first thing we probably need to establish if the God really exists?

    Let me start with a simple example.

    Imagine attending an event where everything, from the carpets, to the drapery, to the furniture, dish-ware, cutlery, floral arrangements, to the lighting, color coordination and menu are no less than picture-perfect!

    Besides enjoying the perfect environs, what else are you sure the guests would do?

    They will undoubtedly inquire about who or which company arranged and managed the event so impeccably. The more high-class and sophisticated the cuisine, decor and ambiance, the greater the received praise for the organizers and event managers who brought it all together.

    The same can be said for any perfectly made, exotic culinary dish or dessert; a classy and visually appealing dress or outfit, or any other product of human ingenuity and creativity: the more valuable and finished the end-product, the greater the praise it will get, and the higher esteem, demand, and value will its ‘creator’ garner and enjoy.

    It is no wonder then that the “designers” who make it big in their respective industries regardless of what they design or create - be it clothing, home interiors, civic infrastructure, furniture, jewelry, food, hairstyles, technological gadgetry, or scientific inventions - are recognized and respected through and because of their created products. The more fault-free, visually appealing, smoothly functional and beneficial for general use the latter are, the more value, money, respect, demand and awe will its designer be able to demand and receive.

    Now imagine if when the guests at the beautifully decorated event inquire which company or individual created the idea behind it and then succeeded in practically executing it so perfectly, they are told that no one did anything; rather, everything just automatically fell into place on its own, without anyone calling the shots.

    Would you expect anyone with a sane mind to believe this story?

    Any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him.
    Analogically, God has created whatever is in the heavens and the earth, and He has done an awe-inspiring perfect job of creation that takes one’s breath away, even if one ponders upon only the most microscopic, minuscule aspect of one of His creations, such as the structure of a single human cell, or the intricate way the wing of a mosquito is made.

    The Creator has spread all of the signs of His powers around us, which point clearly to His omnipotence and omnipresence, beholding which, any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him, without even seeing Him.

    Let's agree on this first and then we can discuss why Muslims believe that Allah is the true Creator and the only true Divine guidance is Quran. Sounds reasonable?

    | Likes Ahmed. liked this post

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    Re: Truth seeker

    People have various backgrounds, various things convincing for them.
    I'm also from the atheist background and I didn't have to give up on my own believes.

    As you call yourself a Truth seeker, honestly putting your cards on a table, it means that you value Truth, you are seeking in a right place bro

    The central point of Islam is Tawheed, first part of the Shahada which differs muslim from non-muslim.

    AshhaduallailaahaillAllah
    Literal translation is: I declare that there is no god other than God.

    But the meaning of it is that no one or nothing is to be worshipped other than God.

    You are seeking for Truth - that effectively meaning that you are seeking for God, or by other words that you worships Allah alone, not some authorities which says you what is truth and what you should believe.

    God is not some extra entity you are demanded to believe. No, rather you just need to discover your own fate in yourself.
    Consider the Universe (Multiverse) in all its entirety of space, time and whatever else.
    Call this Creation. God is beyond Creation.

    You may consider religion as a phylosophy, language, way of life and thinking.
    Last edited by Physicist; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:38 PM.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Muslims are not the only people of faith that claim “ miracles “,
    Christians , jews, Buddhists , as a matter of fact , every religion that has ever existed has claimed miracles .

    Is it possible that you .... like them ... are wrong ?
    Bhudists do not have any miracles... They do have some spiritual feats that their monks can do but just about any 'spiritualist' can achieve the same (such as astral projection etc)

    Jews and Christians can have miracles but that's because their books were originally divine so they could have some revealed miracles intact in their books, however their religions have been superseded by Gods latest religion of Islam now that's been sent to all mankind

    Just see them links posted above, the Quranic miracles are too many and too overwhelming to be anything other than from a divine source

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    Bhudists do not have any miracles... They do have some spiritual feats that their monks can do but just about any 'spiritualist' can achieve the same (such as astral projection etc)

    Jews and Christians can have miracles but that's because their books were originally divine so they could have some revealed miracles intact in their books, however their religions have been superseded by Gods latest religion of Islam now that's been sent to all mankind

    Just see them links posted above, the Quranic miracles are too many and too overwhelming to be anything other than from a divine source

    That’s the entire point ...how do you know what the source is.

    As for Buddhists not having miracles ... read about the death of Buddha

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    That’s the entire point ...how do you know what the source is.

    As for Buddhists not having miracles ... read about the death of Buddha
    The source is proven my the miraculous nature of the revelations and the miracles the Prophets performed as these can only happen from God

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman View Post
    Since you are an atheist, I think first thing we probably need to establish if the God really exists?

    Let me start with a simple example.

    Imagine attending an event where everything, from the carpets, to the drapery, to the furniture, dish-ware, cutlery, floral arrangements, to the lighting, color coordination and menu are no less than picture-perfect!

    Besides enjoying the perfect environs, what else are you sure the guests would do?

    They will undoubtedly inquire about who or which company arranged and managed the event so impeccably. The more high-class and sophisticated the cuisine, decor and ambiance, the greater the received praise for the organizers and event managers who brought it all together.

    The same can be said for any perfectly made, exotic culinary dish or dessert; a classy and visually appealing dress or outfit, or any other product of human ingenuity and creativity: the more valuable and finished the end-product, the greater the praise it will get, and the higher esteem, demand, and value will its ‘creator’ garner and enjoy.

    It is no wonder then that the “designers” who make it big in their respective industries regardless of what they design or create - be it clothing, home interiors, civic infrastructure, furniture, jewelry, food, hairstyles, technological gadgetry, or scientific inventions - are recognized and respected through and because of their created products. The more fault-free, visually appealing, smoothly functional and beneficial for general use the latter are, the more value, money, respect, demand and awe will its designer be able to demand and receive.

    Now imagine if when the guests at the beautifully decorated event inquire which company or individual created the idea behind it and then succeeded in practically executing it so perfectly, they are told that no one did anything; rather, everything just automatically fell into place on its own, without anyone calling the shots.

    Would you expect anyone with a sane mind to believe this story?

    Any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him.
    Analogically, God has created whatever is in the heavens and the earth, and He has done an awe-inspiring perfect job of creation that takes one’s breath away, even if one ponders upon only the most microscopic, minuscule aspect of one of His creations, such as the structure of a single human cell, or the intricate way the wing of a mosquito is made.

    The Creator has spread all of the signs of His powers around us, which point clearly to His omnipotence and omnipresence, beholding which, any eye that observes and any receptive heart that reflects, can easily ‘find’ Him and believe in Him, without even seeing Him.

    Let's agree on this first and then we can discuss why Muslims believe that Allah is the true Creator and the only true Divine guidance is Quran. Sounds reasonable?

    Beauty is subjective , perfection is also subjective

    And I don’t believe that anything came from nothing , if that’s what you are getting at.

    All the things you mentioned can be demonstrate to be a result of design , the same cannot he said of the universe.
    Your making an equivocation fallacy.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    That’s the entire point ...how do you know what the source is.

    As for Buddhists not having miracles ... read about the death of Buddha
    That bhudda 'miracle' is only claimed by the bhudists so there is no proof it happened, unlike Islamic miracles that are still in the Quran to see and the Prophet Muhammad's (saw) miracles having been witnessed by many and documented and verifiable preserved to this day

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    The source is proven my the miraculous nature of the revelations and the miracles the Prophets performed as these can only happen from God

    How do you know they can only happen by a god?
    Which god are you talking about ?

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    That bhudda 'miracle' is only claimed by the bhudists so there is no proof it happened, unlike Islamic miracles that are still in the Quran to see and the Prophet Muhammad's (saw) miracles having been witnessed by many and documented and verifiable preserved to this day
    All miracles are claimed by people , the world is chock full of religious people of all faith the believe that their miracles are real.

    It’s a common belief among religious people

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    How do you know they can only happen by a god?
    Which god are you talking about ?
    Brother rather than be sceptical and argue on and on, why don't you see the Islamic evidences for yourself?

    I invite you to read an online English translation of the Holy Quran, read a biography (seerah) of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and check out our Prophets' miracles here :

    https://www.whyislam.org/muhammad/mi...phet-muhammad/

    Keep your heart open to the Truth and ask God for help (you can say 'God if you exist, then please guide me to your truth') and maybe you'll be blessed with that light I've been talking about too
    Last edited by Ahmed.; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:35 PM.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    Brother rather than be sceptical and argue on and on, why don't you see the Islamic evidences for yourself?

    I invite you to read an online English translation of the Holy Quran, read a biography (seerah) of Prophet Muhammad (saw) and check out our Prophets' miracles here :

    https://www.whyislam.org/muhammad/mi...phet-muhammad/

    Keep your heart open to the Truth and ask God for help (you can say 'God if you exist, then please guide me to your truth') and maybe you'll be blessed with that light I've been talking about too
    I’ve read bits of the Quran , it reads pretty much like all the other “ holy books “
    I underpays you believe it’s special , just like Christians think the bible is special , or the Jews think the Torah is special , or Hindus believe their holy book is special .

    The world is littered with “ holy” books people think is special ... yours is no different

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Beauty is subjective , perfection is also subjective

    And I don’t believe that anything came from nothing , if that’s what you are getting at.

    All the things you mentioned can be demonstrate to be a result of design , the same cannot he said of the universe.
    Your making an equivocation fallacy.
    The point I made above was using "Design argument or Teleological argument." Let me give another example, perhaps my last example was not good enough or may be it was too long.
    Suppose I find a watch in a desert and upon opening it, I marvel at the intricate wiring and design. There is never a suggestion of the watch coming into existence by ‘accident,’ therefore how could this intricate and complicated world be brought into existence by an ‘accident?’ A lot of care and attention would be required. Therefore, nothing, including the universe, is brought into existence by accident.

    Several Examples used as Evidence:

    Humans constantly try to change their appearance, whether it is through contact lenses, makeup, fake eyelashes or face lifts, the fact remains that underneath all of that, they still look the same. No one can change their appearance, even through surgery, as the individual cells and DNA of a human being cannot be altered to switch to another specific job. For example, humans can dye their hair another color, such as blonde to brown, but the actual DNA cannot be altered to naturally create brown hair.

    A plant cannot grow on its’ own. People give it food and water, but where does the food and water come from? They are both made on Earth but what makes them grow? Where do the nutrients and minerals required come from? Again and again, the source can be questioned. What makes the leaves green? Chlorophyll and sunlight. But where does the sunlight come from? The Sun. How did the Sun come into existence? The Big Bang Theory? What triggered the explosion?

    Similarly, the Sun and Moon are kept at the correct distance from the Earth to let humans survive. What keeps them at that distance? Gravity? Who created Gravity? What causes the combustions on the surface of the Sun? Muslims believe that the Designer of everything is Allah, who is the creator and controller of the Universe.

    Human beings are another example. We grow from just a blood clot into full adults with various characteristics. Proteins make us grow, but where do the proteins come from? What is the First Cause? Muslims believe this to be Allah. Also, humans breathe mechanically and automatically. If, even for a minute, we concentrated our breathing and tried to breathe, it would become difficult. Muslims believe Allah has made us this way.

    Other than the Design Argument, we can also take into account the argument of moral values (good and bad). Many times in our life, we think that ‘I ought to do this’ or ‘this is wrong.’ This is because of our conscience. Most of the time, we know what is right, yet we don’t do it. Muslims believe that all rights and wrongs come from one source: Allah. If we don’t follow those rights or wrongs, it is our choice and free will kicking in. Therefore, the presence of good and bad and of our conscience suggests that there is a higher power. It works like an alarm system to give us a warning and many times we don't listen to this warning. Instead we take refuge in drugs, alcohol and other things to kill our conscious. Our conscious is the reason why people with all the fame and money are still looking for happiness. Depression and suicidal thoughts are highest in individuals who try to find pleasure in anything other than remembering God. When we hear fire alarm we should run away from source of fire but we do the opposite in case of our conscious. We shut off the alarm and run towards the source of fire and as a result can never find true peace and happiness. Anyways the existence of conscience proves there is a higher being.

    Last point I am mention shortly and this is about death. Death is a reality which ever one accepts and find no escape from it. This also suggests that there is a higher power over which we have no control.
    | Likes Ahmed. liked this post

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

    And I don’t believe that anything came from nothing
    If you believe that something did not come from anything, then how did all the matter in the universe come into being?

    And just as a matter of interest, how can you be absolutely sure there is no God the creator of all that is seen and unseen?

    In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

    Eric
    Last edited by Eric H; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:33 PM.
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    Truth seeker

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;



    If you believe that something did not come from anything, then how did all the matter in the universe come into being?

    And just as a matter of interest, how can you be absolutely sure there is no God the creator of all that is seen and unseen?

    In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

    Eric
    I have no idea how the universe came to be.

    I understand you have your religious views to the origins , just like other cultures have their religious views on the matter

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;
    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    I have no idea how the universe came to be.
    Either something had to have no beginning, or something did not come from anything. Both these options seem to defy a logical scientific explanation. God seems to be the best answer.

    In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

    Eric
    | Likes Ahmed. liked this post
    Truth seeker

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
    Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;


    Either something had to have no beginning, or something did not come from anything. Both these options seem to defy a logical scientific explanation. God seems to be the best answer.

    In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

    Eric

    Gods are not explanations , gods are what people make up when they do not know .
    Gods are how we define or ignorance.

    You are right ,
    Either the universe had a beginning or it didn’t .
    I don’t know , no one does.

    I know you have certain religious beliefs about it .... but that’s just things you believe are true, just like people with other religions brides

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    Re: Truth seeker

    Greetings and peace be with you chalks75;

    Quote Originally Posted by chalks75 View Post
    Gods are not explanations , gods are what people make up when they do not know .
    Gods are how we define or ignorance.
    The creation of the universe is history, either there is a God who created the universe, or there is no god. Regardless as to what you or I may think, we can't change the past.

    I watched a programme by Stephen Hawkins recently, he tried to explain how the the matter of the universe always existed in both positive matter and negative matter. He demonstrated this by a man digging a hole and making a mountain. The mountain of earth was the positive matter, and the hole it came from was the negative matter, so they balanced each other out. This seemed a really stupid explanation, the mountain of earth already existed, he just shifted it from one place to another.

    Atheism is equally a position of ignorance, you have ruled out the possibility of God with no proof.

    In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

    Eric
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    Truth seeker

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.


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