Does the Quran have scientific errors?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

You want to talk about science? then lets talk about science.

No, not really, I'm not interested in talking about science but I do understand why you ask.
Let me explain my objective again:
I am an agnostic from a Christian background who wants to figure out if the scriptures have been written by men or by God.
How do we do that?
The easiest way is to find scientific errors in the scriptures that make it very obvious the scriptures couldn't be written by a God.
I am not looking for scientific miracles nor sophisticated scientific discoveries.
In fact I am not looking for anything too complicated.
If God's scriptures say he created the Universe 5 thousand years ago then we know that couldn't be right because with very little understanding of science we can understand the Universe is much older than that.
That simple.
As I explained I was watching Ridvan's video on the subject where he finds 60 scientific errors in the Quran.
Most of them are somehow explainable or at least difficult to prove.
The one I picked is not entirely from Ridvan since he never mentions the Hadith and didn't go into much detail.
What I found interesting about Quran 36 38 and the Hadith is that it explains a simple 24 hour cycle (day and night) in a way that only a person standing on earth and not understanding much about astronomy and how the solar system works could tell.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

It is clear you are not looking for real answers here. you are only pretending to be open minded

So are you saying that I have refuted some real answers?
Can you quote them?
Can you provide any real answers?
Why did prophet Muhammad ask the question. Do you know where the sun goes after sunset?
If you ask me I would have answered. Are you serious? What do mean? The sun doesn't go anywhere after sunset.
We just can't see it because the earth rotated.
What would have been your real explanation?
If the sun doesn't go anywhere after sunset then how do you explain that it stops (prostrates, slows down rests, etc)?
Then after is given permission it rises again.
Rises from where?
We know it never moved.
What is your real explanation for this?
Please any real answer is more that welcome at this point.

I do appreciate your answers.

We already told you...multiple times... that we believe that everything prostrates in front of Allah in its own way...Do you see trees rocks and mountains going anywhere? do you see them prostrating? NO....but still they do it...in their own way...not observable for human eye.
In the same way the sun prostrates too...it is not going anywhere...it does not stop...it just does what it does and it prostrates without we humans noticing. This answer has been giving to you, but you still keep hammering to your own interpretation of the sun going under a throne like a dog that goes under the chair and waiting for his next command.
That is not the case.

about the universe being 5 thousands year old? the very term "years" is a worldly concept...without earth, the word "year" is totally meaningless...so God, a being outside the realm of time, and outside the human determined units of time would most certainly NOT speak about "years" as in 365 earth days. that is not logical. so please educate yourself and try again.

have a nice day.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

We already told you...multiple times... that we believe that everything prostrates in front of Allah

The prostration thing has been understood and is not disputed. I take your word for it. That is something that cannot be challenged.
That is something that happens outside of our understanding and cannot in any way tested.
But I was testing more down to earth facts.
I specifically ask you questions about it.
I as an agnostic and a person in the 21st century have trouble understanding.
You didn't answer any of them.
So, what is that tells me?
Why you don't answer my questions? Instead you concentrate only on one single item that is not really in dispute.

Anyway, your answer is taken, understood and accepted but my doubts are pretty much still there.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

The prostration thing has been understood and is not disputed. I take your word for it. That is something that cannot be challenged.
That is something that happens outside of our understanding and cannot in any way tested.
But I was testing more down to earth facts.
I specifically ask you questions about it.
I as an agnostic and a person in the 21st century have trouble understanding.
You didn't answer any of them.
So, what is that tells me?
Why you don't answer my questions? Instead you concentrate only on one single item that is not really in dispute.

Anyway, your answer is taken, understood and accepted but my doubts are pretty much still there.

In that case...I am sorry. I concentrated on that item because I thought that was all what you cared about. I am not trying to avoid any of your questions...but I really do not understand what questions you are asking. Please let us know what question you want answered and we will try again.

- - - Updated - - -

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

The prostration thing has been understood and is not disputed. I take your word for it. That is something that cannot be challenged.
That is something that happens outside of our understanding and cannot in any way tested.
But I was testing more down to earth facts.
I specifically ask you questions about it.
I as an agnostic and a person in the 21st century have trouble understanding.
You didn't answer any of them.
So, what is that tells me?
Why you don't answer my questions? Instead you concentrate only on one single item that is not really in dispute.

Anyway, your answer is taken, understood and accepted but my doubts are pretty much still there.

In that case...I am sorry. I concentrated on that item because I thought that was all what you cared about. I am not trying to avoid any of your questions...but I really do not understand what questions you are asking. Please let us know what question you want answered and we will try again.

@Eddy
I have seen your last post, don’t have access to computer right now but will respond whenever I get a chance.

It is not frustrating because I understand that you don’t see the things with my prospective. And I appreciate that you came on this forum and ask us to clarify these things for you. May Allah open up your heart and help you see the truth. Ameen!

Please give me some time, I will definitely respond in detail sometime today.

All the best!

Well yes, this whole thread is about debunking the notion that the Quran has scientific errors

Previously discussed that if we look at Quran with scientific lens then Quran was wrong when scientists used to believe that earth was stationary & sun revolves around the earth. Quran was wrong when scientists used to believe that sun was stationary but earth moved around it. Quran has been saying that everything revolves in its own orbit including sun, earth and moon and this is what science now agrees with.
Similarly, just a century ago science believed that earth did not had a beginning and that its size does not change. If we believed in that then Quran was wrong again because per Quran earth has a beginning and everything in this universe including earth is expanding. Science now agrees with Quran.

Therefore, using science ( a knowledge which is never certain and keeps changing) to judge Quran is wrong. Its a wrong approach if you are sincerely trying to find the truth. With that said, I will provide translation of verses 36:33-44 and briefly touch upon what Allah wants us to focus on these verses.

And a sign for them is the dead land. We gave it life, and We brought forth from it grains, so that they eat thereof.
And We have made therein gardens of date-palms and grapes, and We have caused springs of water to gush forth therein.
So that they may eat of the fruit thereof, and their hands made it not. Will they not, then, give thanks?
Glory be to Him, Who has created all the pairs of that which the earth produces, as well as of their own (human) kind (male and female), and of that which they know not.
And a sign for them is the night, We withdraw therefrom the day, and behold, they are in darkness.
And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.
And an Ayah (sign) for them is that We bore their offspring in the laden ship [of Nuh (Noah)].
And We have created for them of the like thereunto, so on them they ride.
And if We will, We shall drown them, and there will be no shout (or helper) for them (to hear their cry for help) nor will they be saved.
Unless it be a mercy from Us, and as an enjoyment for a while. [Quran 36:33-44]

Quranic verses are called “ayah or ayat” as they are “indication or signs of Allah”. In other words they point towards or give indication of existence of Allah. And when you read the translation of above verses, you can see that the main goal it to focus on the things around us because everything around us gives a clear indication of a Creator who has total control over everything.


From verses 33-35, Allah mentioned in these verses to look at the dead earth and how Allah gives this dead earth a life and bring out from the earth grains, fruits, vegetables etc. which we need and consume without paying any attention to the fact that we can't produce any of this at our own. Is this not enough of a sign for the existence of Allah? If it is, why people don't thank Him. Spiritually it also means that just like Allah can give life to a dead earth, He can also give life to a dead heart and bring out from it obedience and humbleness provided we thank Him.

In verses 36 Allah mentions that how perfectly he has created pairs for every thing. Then in verses 37-40 Allah gave example of some of those pairs such as day and night, sun and the moon and how perfectly Allah has control over these things and how these things are interconnected which is a clear sign that the Creator of all these things can only be ONE. Just like Allah created pairs of day & night, sun & moon; He also have created pairs for belief and disbelief, life & death, happiness & sadness, good and evil etc. One important thing to note is that every creation of Allah will finally come to end including sun and moon, only thing which will remain is Allah who will bring us back to life for the day when no one will be wronged and justice will be done based on how people lived their lives on this earth. Last part of this Chapter exclusively talks about life after death.


So far, Allah has drawn our attention to the things we see on the land, and things we see in the sky. Finally in verses 41-44, Allah gives another sign of His power over water. He mentioned, how Allah saved human race by inspiring Noah to build a ship and how later on people build ships for transportation over water on earth. If Allah wills, He can drown people in the water and there is no one who can save us. But just like sun and moon has an appointed time when they will collapse, we human beings also have been given a certain time to live on this earth and when that time comes, no one can save us. No one has ever survived death.

This is in brief what you probably should focus on because it bring out belief in Allah and His Oneness which is essence of all Abrahamic religions. On the other hand, if you focus on science then you will be focusing on the wrong stuff. Most of the time when people try to use science to understand religion, their basis motive is to deny God. The signs are clear but they don't want to see them instead will focus on things which are of unseen nature which even science can neither prove nor deny. Just like if we ask the scientists to prove the non-existence of God, they simply can't.

In my next few posts, I will try to answer your specific questions from your point of view. I will probably take one question at a time and answer that so that we can have more productive conversation.

format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother

Just highlight the part that you misunderstand.

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better."
Prophet Muhammad replied:
"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All- Knowing." (36.38)

The highlighted part in bold is actually the only part of the Hadith I'm interested in.
The rest is about the sun final trip (resurrection day)

It is not that I don't understand it, I do think I understand it but by translating it in my head what has been said it creates doubt that this Hadith describes something that only a human who has limited knowledge of astronomy and how the solar system works could describe.

What has been described here?
This is about the trajectory of the sun around planet earth in a 24 hour cycle.
How do we know it is a 24 hour cycle?
Because this happens at sunset and sunset happens every 24 hours.
Prophet Muhammad explains that after sunset the sun prostrates and waits for permission to continue and permission is given.
This tells us that here we are dealing with the sun continuing its rotation around earth until the next sunset (24 hours later)
This is the only part I'm interested in analyzing.
Why?
Because the rest is about the day permission will not be given to the sun to continue and that would be the end (resurrection day).

Now the way I interpret all this is full of scientific errors and that is the problem we face.
This is where Muslims can debunk the so called scientific errors with an alternative explanation.

So now let's go thru the scientific errors.
The first one comes from the initial question from prophet Muhammad. Do you know where the sun goes after sunset?
I already said that if somebody asked me I would simply reply.
What do you mean? The sun doesn't go anywhere after sunset.
The sun is actually in the same exact position in relation with planet earth.
Yes we know the sun is actually moving like all other bodies in the universe but here we are talking in relation to planet earth.
Then I would clarify that the only reason we no longer see the sun is because the earth has rotated.
If we could spin the earth back a little bit we would see that the sun is still there in the exact same position.

Prophet Muhammad instead went ahead and explained that the sun after sunset stops for a little bit (use your favorite translation, prostration, stopping point, rest position, etc) and waits for permission to continue.
How many scientific errors are here?
We already established that the sun doesn't go anywhere at sunset so this movement around earth is another scientific error.
The stopping point obviously is another scientific error but I'm not going to discuss the prostration event because that is impossible to test.
Then the sun is allowed to continue and rise again.
See this is like a chain reaction of errors.
The sun never rotated around the earth, it never went anywhere after sunset, it never rise again after permission.
It is all a big scientific error.
Nothing happens the way it is described by prophet Muhammed.

This is my view from the eyes of an agnostic with no attachment to the religion
Now I would like to see the religious explanation.
A concise and easy to understand would be appreciated.

format_quote Originally Posted by HabibUrrehman

Very long explanation here

Thanks for your extensive explanation.
I'm going to take my time to go thru it and understand it as much as possible.

format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah

using science ( a knowledge which is never certain and keeps changing) to judge Quran is wrong. Its a wrong approach if you are sincerely trying to find the truth.

That is only your opinion which I don't agree with.
As you should have noticed by now I'm not a mad scientist who is measuring every single inch in the Quran trying to find defects.
I'm only using science in a very broad and easy way. I'm only looking for very easy to detect defects that are irrefutable for any person with a minimum education and a healthy amount of common sense.

Now let's go to your explanation of the trajectory of the sun

Sun’s Rotation Around the Earth
The first criticism is the claim that the hadith somehow suggests that the sun is rotating around the earth (geocentric), whereas in reality, it is the earth that is orbiting around the sun (heliocentric) and on its own axis that gives us the impression of sunset and sunrise. This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen. To be more accurate, shouldn’t we say “sunlight has moved away from our location” or “sunlight has come upon our location”? However, we universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun moving is what appears to him from earth.

I wonder if this is the best explanation found in the Islamic world?
Has this been taken from any Islamic Scholar?
Is this your own interpretation?
So you're saying prophet Muhammad was using false information in order to have his message understood.
Is that what you're saying?
You're saying prophet Muhammad was making huge scientific mistakes because his fellow arab in the 7th century wouldn't have been able to understand otherwise.
Is that what you're saying?
In other words you are saying the Quran and Hadith have huge scientific errors but this was done intentionally.
There was a necessary reason for that.
The people at the time wouldn't have understood if the correct information was used.
I see.

Thanks for your explanation and for taking the time to do it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That is only your opinion which I don't agree with.
As you should have noticed by now I'm not a mad scientist who is measuring every single inch in the Quran trying to find defects.
I'm only using science in a very broad and easy way. I'm only looking for very easy to detect defects that are irrefutable for any person with a minimum education and a healthy amount of common sense.

Now let's go to your explanation of the trajectory of the sun



I wonder if this is the best explanation found in the Islamic world?
Has this been taken from any Islamic Scholar?
Is this your own interpretation?
So you're saying prophet Muhammad was using false information in order to have his message understood.
Is that what you're saying?
You're saying prophet Muhammad was making huge scientific mistakes because his fellow arab in the 7th century wouldn't have been able to understand otherwise.
Is that what you're saying?
In other words you are saying the Quran and Hadith have huge scientific errors but this was done intentionally.
There was a necessary reason for that.
The people at the time wouldn't have understood if the correct information was used.
I see.

Thanks for your explanation and for taking the time to do it.

No.

Technically speaking, the phrase "the Earth is rotating around the sun" is just as wrong as the phrase "the sun is rotating around the Earth". It is a shitty description of the movements of the sun and Earth, because motion is relative.

How come we see with our very own eyes that the sun is rotating around us, but on every video about our solar system we see the Earth rotating around the sun?

The magic words for this problem is the addition of "relative to" to the two phrases:
So the correct way of describing this would be:
The Earth is rotating around the sun relative to the sun
and
The sun is rotating around Earth relative to the Earth.
Both phrases are true.

If we could somehow pin down Amsterdam onto space...so that Amsterdam is fixed and could not move anymore...we would see that the entire universe (not only solar system or galaxy but the entire universe) would rotate around Amsterdam.

It is all about choosing the right reference point.

So in the case of this hadeeth, Mohammeds (sas) reference point was his own perspective (which is pretty logical for the people living in that time period, so more easy to understand), but in this modern day we usually choose our reference point on the center of the sun. That is the only difference.

Conclusion, scientifically Mohammad (sas) is NOT wrong.

another example of a shitty notation:
Can you solve this math problem:

8 : 2 ( 2 + 2 ) = ?

If your answer "16" or worse...anything else other than "1", then I don't expect from you to understand this whole subject.
because according to math rules we should work out the brackets first: 2+2=4
and then we should work from left to right:
8 : 2 * 4 = 16
However we must realise that 2(2+2) belongs together...so the real answer should be:
8 : ( 2 * 4 ) = 1
@Eddy:

Ehm, there really is not much in this hadeeth to scientifically analyze.
let us take another example of the Quran:
verse 22:18:
Have you not seen that to Allah prostrate themselves whoever are in the heavens, and whoever are in the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and (all) beasts and many of mankind? And to many torment will (come) true; and whomever Allah degrades, then none will honor him. Surely Allah performs whatever He decides. A prostration is to be performed here


I hope you will not try to analyse this verse by saying "hey wait a minute, trees and mountains do not even move...how can they prostrate? this is a scientific error in the Quraan"

Do you really think we don't know that trees and mountains don't move?
This verse proves that trees and mountains do not prostrate in the way humans do...nor in the way humans can observe.

So, with all respect, I really do not understand what you want to analyze scientifically...but I think you are trying to tighten a screw with a hammer if you understand what I'm saying.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

That is only your opinion which I don't agree with.
As you should have noticed by now I'm not a mad scientist who is measuring every single inch in the Quran trying to find defects.
I'm only using science in a very broad and easy way. I'm only looking for very easy to detect defects that are irrefutable for any person with a minimum education and a healthy amount of common sense.

Now let's go to your explanation of the trajectory of the sun

I wonder if this is the best explanation found in the Islamic world?
Has this been taken from any Islamic Scholar?
Is this your own interpretation?
So you're saying prophet Muhammad was using false information in order to have his message understood.
Is that what you're saying?
You're saying prophet Muhammad was making huge scientific mistakes because his fellow arab in the 7th century wouldn't have been able to understand otherwise.
Is that what you're saying?
In other words you are saying the Quran and Hadith have huge scientific errors but this was done intentionally.
There was a necessary reason for that.
The people at the time wouldn't have understood if the correct information was used.
I see.

Thanks for your explanation and for taking the time to do it.

Below is what I wrote & I will bold some important points:

Sun’s Rotation Around the Earth

The first criticism is the claim that the hadith somehow suggests that the sun is rotating around the earth (geocentric), whereas in reality, it is the earth that is orbiting around the sun (heliocentric) and on its own axis that gives us the impression of sunset and sunrise. This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen. To be more accurate, shouldn’t we say “sunlight has moved away from our location” or “sunlight has come upon our location”? However, we universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun moving is what appears to him from earth.

First of all notice that point of reference used to speak about the motion of sun was the earth and in that reference it is a true scientific statement which is even used by NASA as I mentioned in my previous post and gave reference to NASA website.

Secondly, it should be borne in mind that the argument of the Qur’an and the noble prophets through the creations in the heavens and the earth and the major changes that occur therein is limited to the extent that could be rationalized by every human being by virtue of bare observation and elementary deliberation. Technical refinements of philosophy and mathematics that can be resolved by experts in the field alone are not the material on which argument of this nature is based; nor are people invited to deliberate on these. The reason is simple. Believing in Allah the Almighty and acting in accordance with His message is the duty of every human being- learned or illiterate, man or woman, urbanite or villager, dweller of some mountain or island. Therefore, prophetic teachings are synchronized with the level of perception, reason and understanding of common people that need no technical expertise.

Had the Prophet –peace and blessings of Allah be upon him- through divine guidance made the point in a way that could not be comprehended by his immediate listeners, it would have killed the purpose of it, because their guidance and instruction into righteousness was certainly the sole way message could reach us in this age. Looking back, we can now easily understand the proverbial sense of it and appreciate it, but it wouldn’t have been anyway possible for the people in the seventh century to look ahead into the future. For us the message remains as great and relevant as ever because even though we have the knowledge that it is rather the Earth that revolves around sun but what's more important is to realize that the grand design and the fine-tuning of the whole celestial system including the sun is such that it speaks of an Ultimate Power which is obeyed by the whole Universe. And this is what the essence of the message is.

With that said, I do realize that there are few things which I did not touch upon & those may help to clarify these confusions. For example, I did not explain what the 'Arsh of Allah ( Divine Throne) is ?

The ‘arsh of Allah as understood from the Qur’an and Sunnah is that it surrounds all that we know as the masses of the land and expanses of the sky. All these masses and expanses along with planets and stars, without any exceptions, are enclosed within the ‘arsh- and the ‘arsh of Allah holds the entire cosmic universe inside itself. If seen from this angle, the sun is, in all conditions and all the times, simply under the ‘arsh.
And when experience bears out that the time the sun is setting at one place, it is also rising at another. Therefore, no moment of the sun is free of either rising or setting. Thus, the being of the sun under the ‘arsh is also perennial under all states and so is its setting and rising. Therefore, the outcome of the subject mentioned in the Hadith is that the sun, in its entire orbit, remains in the state of prostration before Allah under the ‘arsh, that is, the sun moves under Allah's permission and command. And this cycle will stay activated right through the proximity of the last Day of Resurrection until comes the time for the emergence of the sign that the Day of Resurrection is very close. When this happens, the sun will, rather than start its next orbit, be commanded to turn back - and then, it will rise from the west. At that time, the door of repentance will be closed and no declaration of faith or repentance from anyone shall remain acceptable at that hour.
In short, this particularity of the setting of the sun, its passing under the ‘arsh, the making of prostration there and the incidence of seeking permission for the next orbit mentioned in the narration being studied is simply a similitude in consonance with the mores of effective prophetic teaching and in terms of common perception.
Neither does it make it necessary that it performs prostration on some land surface like a human being, nor does it make it necessary that there be some pause in the movement of the sun at the time of making a prostration, nor does it mean that it goes to some particular place doing only one prostration during a day and night, and nor that it goes beneath the ‘arsh after setting only. But, at this time of great alternation, when people are seeing that the sun is receding away from them, what has been done is that they have been appraised of the truth of what is happening in the manner of a similitude while the reality is that this whole thing is happening because of the sun moving beneath the ‘arsh in subservience to the Divine command - the sun does not have any capability or power of its own. So, the way, at this time, the people of Madinah were convinced that the sun would now make its prostration and seek permission for the next orbit, similarly, the message was relayed onwards to every place where the sun would be setting and everyone there would stand advised of the lesson thereof. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission. Following this submission, there remains no doubt concerning the Hadith quoted, neither in terms of observations, nor in terms of the rules of astronomy.

format_quote Originally Posted by Good brother

Straw man fallacy

You add your own flavour to the text.

And what is wrong about adding my own flavour to the text?
In the English language ii is called "PARAPHRASING"
Ever heard of that word?
Le me school you then:
On many occasions a phrase is written in such style that it makes it difficult to understand under the current conditions.
What do we do then?
Well an option very often used is "paraphrasing" the text into a cleaner and easier to understand version.
Got it?
That in no way can be considered a "Straw Man Fallacy"
A straw Man Fallacy creates a false argument and then attacks it.
Paraphrasing doesn't change the original meaning of the argument, it just makes cleaner and clearer.

The rest of your post is conducted in pretty much the same manner, making meaningless corrections and childish observations.
If I say the sun is in the same position in relation with planet earth but now we cannot see it anymore because the earth rotated.
You jump and say "that is incorrect"
Then on the next phrase I clarify that I didn't mean exactly in the same position because I understand both the sun and planet earth are moving all the time.
Then you jumped again and said that now my second statement is contradicting the first one.
Are you serious?
Take a pill and relax.
Are you here to have a meaningful conversation or ti be a total --- ----.?
I believe is the latter so I have no interest in exchanging posts with you.

Eddy is our guest here, so please let’s try to be respectful and understand that he is not a Muslim and looks at things differently. Also appreciate that he has come to ask these questions on this forum for clarification and I am sure that there is no ill intention.
It’s month of Dhul Hijja and we are in the sacred days of Hajj, so let’s overlook each others mistakes and try to help Eddy in removing his doubts about Islam. our job is only to answer his questions to the best of our ability, Guidance is only in the hands of Allah and He guides whom He wills.
May Allah guide him and help him see the truth. Ameen!

format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy

And what is wrong about adding my own flavour to the text?
In the English language ii is called "PARAPHRASING"
Ever heard of that word?
Le me school you then:
On many occasions a phrase is written in such style that it makes it difficult to understand under the current conditions.
What do we do then?
Well an option very often used is "paraphrasing" the text into a cleaner and easier to understand version.
Got it?
That in no way can be considered a "Straw Man Fallacy"
A straw Man Fallacy creates a false argument and then attacks it.
Paraphrasing doesn't change the original meaning of the argument, it just makes cleaner and clearer.

The rest of your post is conducted in pretty much the same manner, making meaningless corrections and childish observations.
If I say the sun is in the same position in relation with planet earth but now we cannot see it anymore because the earth rotated.
You jump and say "that is incorrect"
Then on the next phrase I clarify that I didn't mean exactly in the same position because I understand both the sun and planet earth are moving all the time.
Then you jumped again and said that now my second statement is contradicting the first one.
Are you serious?
Take a pill and relax.
Are you here to have a meaningful conversation or ti be a total --- ----.?
I believe is the latter so I have no interest in exchanging posts with you.

That is quite wrong Eddy,
For generations and generations we managed to preserve the original text in its pure form. we do not allow translations or any other modifications to the original text to avoid adding even the slightiest of this "own flavor to the text".
So, paraphrasing is a no go. you can explain a verse by first quoting the text and then by giving the explanation to it...but paraphrasing like you are doing is changing the meaning of the text and that is not OK.
So basically, you DO create a false argument and attack it...in your very own words a straw man fallacy.

In my last post to you I proved to you that the text "prostrating of things and creatures" in the Quraan is not in the same way as "prostrating of some humans". So, if you are capable of using your logic...you should conclude that the sun is also an inanimate thing and the prostration of the sun is something different than the prostration of humans.

Therefore...strawman fallacy...

Like Abdullah said, you are our guest here. we will be as patient as possible we can be and try to answer your questions, but we have to be fair and give you the answers as it is.
Besides, we learn a lot from you guys, because you usually ask the critical questions that none of us would come up with, and that forces us to dig deeper in our religion and start thinking about the matter, were we otherwise never would stumble upon.

So we DO appreciate your visit here.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit

So basically, you DO create a false argument and attack it...in your very own words a straw man fallacy.

Let's go over the text in question.
The following text followed the original Hadith which was highlighted in bold to show the part I am talking about.
Then I wrote:
What has been described here?
This is about the trajectory of the sun around planet earth in a 24 hour cycle.
How do we know it is a 24 hour cycle?
Because this happens at sunset and sunset happens every 24 hours.

I think there is no paraphrasing nor straw man fallacy here.
Here is the part of the Hadith in question:

Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better."
Prophet Muhammad replied:
"It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted
So when I say "this is about the trajectory of the sun around planet earth I refer to "It goes (i.e. travels)"
Then I say it is describing a 24 hour cycle because this happens at sunset and sunset happens every 24 hours.
It is a cycle around earth because it continues at sunrise and ends on the next sunset. (permission is given)
Remember the original question from Prophet Muhammad was "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?
Prophet Muhammad is not talking about this specific sunset but about sunset in general.

Sorry I don't see any "Straw Man Fallacy" here.

You said in your previous post "there really is not much in this hadeeth to scientifically analyze."
I disagree:
This is what has been in contention:
Prophet Muhammad's question: "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?"
This is a scientific error because prophet Muhammed assumes the sun goes somewhere at the time of sunset.
The sun doesn't change its trajectory at all at the time of sunset.
This is a scientific error because the sun's natural trajectory is in no way linked with sunset.
Sunset doesn't trigger any change in the sun's trajectory.
We could also say that sunset is not a real time unless we add a location and date.
Example:
Tomorrow at sunset in New York City at latitude X longitud Y we will blow the whistle.

So to say the sun at the time of sunset ""It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted"
It is scientifically speaking an incomplete and inaccurate statement. Sunset where?

Just to make sure, I'm not questioning the prostration event and how that happens.

By the way Abdullah in one of his latest posts explained the controversial parts of this hadith.
I don't know if you necessarily agree with his explanation because it seems to be his personal view on it.

As always I appreciate your input.