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Does the Quran have scientific errors?

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    Does the Quran have scientific errors? (OP)


    Hi all, I'm new in this forum and this is my first post.I grew up a Christian but I'm now more of an agnostic.All my morals and culture come from Christianity but I have always been in doubt about the existence of God.
    I like to challenge parts of the religion that don't make sense to me.
    Muslims believe in the same God (Allah) but they don't believe in Jesus as God nor in the Trinity.
    I often read Christians and Islamic apologists criticizing each other's religions.What I do is a take those critics and try to find out if there is any truth in them.If somebody criticizes Islam I try to reach Islamic sources to find out if the critic is valid.
    This next challenge originated by listening to a video from an ex muslim who calls himself "(name removed)".
    He claims the Quran is full of scientific errors and this is one of them.
    He refers to Quran 36 verse 38 specifically.
    Here is the english translation:Quran 36

    37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
    38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
    39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
    40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

    There are two different interpretations as far as I know.
    Verse 38 refers to the daily sunset and the sun prostrating waiting for permission to rise again
    orVerse 38 refers to the sun going into the end of its life and therefore the end of human life (resurrection day).

    I found a hadith which seems to clearly show this whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop after sunset (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
    The hadith continues:"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

    This is the hadith I'm talking about:

    Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

    Does this proves the Quran has scientific errors and this is one of them?
    How else you interpret this passage?
    Prophet Muhammad could have commited scientific errors but not Allah and this verse is from Allah although the explanation is from Muhammad.

    Challenging a religion to find the truth is not welcome in certain forums so if that is the case in this forum please disregard my whole post and I will not pursue the discussion.
    Last edited by *charisma*; 07-26-2020 at 10:18 PM. Reason: removed name as it was inappropriate

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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

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    The part you call as scientific error has already been answered in my previous post. Perhaps you did not get a chance to look at. Copy and pasting the relevant content again:

    The ‘arsh of Allah as understood from the Qur’an and Sunnah is that it surrounds all that we know as the masses of the land and expanses of the sky. All these masses and expanses along with planets and stars, without any exceptions, are enclosed within the ‘arsh- and the ‘arsh of Allah holds the entire cosmic universe inside itself. If seen from this angle, the sun is, in all conditions and all the times, simply under the ‘arsh.
    And when experience bears out that the time the sun is setting at one place, it is also rising at another. Therefore, no moment of the sun is free of either rising or setting. Thus, the being of the sun under the ‘arsh is also perennial under all states and so is its setting and rising. Therefore, the outcome of the subject mentioned in the Hadith is that the sun, in its entire orbit, remains in the state of prostration before Allah under the ‘arsh, that is, the sun moves under Allah's permission and command. And this cycle will stay activated right through the proximity of the last Day of Resurrection until comes the time for the emergence of the sign that the Day of Resurrection is very close. When this happens, the sun will, rather than start its next orbit, be commanded to turn back - and then, it will rise from the west. At that time, the door of repentance will be closed and no declaration of faith or repentance from anyone shall remain acceptable at that hour.
    In short, this particularity of the setting of the sun, its passing under the ‘arsh, the making of prostration there and the incidence of seeking permission for the next orbit mentioned in the narration being studied is simply a similitude in consonance with the mores of effective prophetic teaching and in terms of common perception.
    Neither does it make it necessary that it performs prostration on some land surface like a human being, nor does it make it necessary that there be some pause in the movement of the sun at the time of making a prostration, nor does it mean that it goes to some particular place doing only one prostration during a day and night, and nor that it goes beneath the ‘arsh after setting only. But, at this time of great alternation, when people are seeing that the sun is receding away from them, what has been done is that they have been appraised of the truth of what is happening in the manner of a similitude while the reality is that this whole thing is happening because of the sun moving beneath the ‘arsh in subservience to the Divine command - the sun does not have any capability or power of its own. So, the way, at this time, the people of Madinah were convinced that the sun would now make its prostration and seek permission for the next orbit, similarly, the message was relayed onwards to every place where the sun would be setting and everyone there would stand advised of the lesson thereof. Thus, the truth of the matter turns out to be that the sun at every moment while moving on its orbit keeps offering prostration before Allah the Almighty and keeps seeking permission to move ahead - and it needs no pause or break to make prostration or seek permission. Following this submission, there remains no doubt concerning the Hadith quoted, neither in terms of observations, nor in terms of the rules of astronomy.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    The part you call as scientific error has already been answered in my previous post. Perhaps you did not get a chance to look at. Copy and pasting the relevant content again:
    Look at the end of my last post addressed to Umit, I mentioned that you responded to the controversial parts of the hadith in what appears to be your personal opinion.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    Which part you think is my personal view? Sun rises and sets at different times at different places (24 hour cycles). Which should not be considered as personal view, it is well established fact both through Quran and modern day scientific knowledge.
    Or is it that ‘Arsh of Allah encompasses everything? Which is not my personal view, it’s a well know teaching of both Quran and Sunnah and if you need I can provide references for that.
    Or Is it something else?
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Which part you think is my personal view?
    This part:

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
    Is that your personal opinion or your personal view?
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Is that your personal opinion or your personal view?
    I am not sure why you think it’s my personal opinion. We universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth. Remember the motion is relative.

    The prophets do not come to teach astronomy. Their sole aim is to make people understand that everything in the universe obeys Allah and so should the humans. For this reason they allude to how humans perceive the things and it actually does appear that sun moves across the horizon.

    Islam is a universal religion and is a guidance for every one for all times until the day of judgement. What do you think literacy rate was in 7th century? Even prophet Muhammad ( peace be upon him) could not read or write. In 1950’s world literacy rate was 55% which is increased to 86% in 2015. Still in many parts of the world ( Africa and other third world countries) literacy rate is as low as 70%. Do you really think they would comprehend a highly complex Divine message or a simple message which is easy to understand for everyone? This the reason, prophetic teachings are synchronized with the level of perception, reason and understanding of common people that need no technical expertise. I hope you can understand and appreciate this simplicity is Islamic teachings. When muslims say we believe in one God, we mean exactly that. It is surely not as complex as the concept of trinity which no one has been able to comprehend yet and ironically is the basic teaching of Christianity.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    This part:



    Is that your personal opinion or your personal view?
    again and again...motion is relative...saying that the sun rotates around the earth relative to the earth is technically NOT wrong.

    if you travel with a constant speed through a void...and there is nothing to orientate on...there is no way you can tell whether you are moving or not...so saying the sun mpving from sunrise to sunset is NOT a personal view...it is basic observation in its pure form.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    again and again...motion is relative...saying that the sun rotates around the earth relative to the earth is technically NOT wrong.
    Scientifically speaking, yes, it is wrong no matter the way you want to use the word relative.
    It doesn't matter, it is what it is. The earth rotates around the sun and the sun doesn't rotate around the earth.
    If you want to talk about perceptions that's another thing.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Scientifically speaking, yes, it is wrong no matter the way you want to use the word relative.
    It doesn't matter, it is what it is. The earth rotates around the sun and the sun doesn't rotate around the earth.
    If you want to talk about perceptions that's another thing.
    Please revisit basic physics, subjects such as relative motion and relative velocity. It’s frustrating that one talks about scientific errors and have very little to no knowledge of basic science.
    Second, none of us have said that sun rotates around the earth. Quran’s POV has already been stated in my previous posts and that is everything revolves in its own orbit ( stated in one of the verses we have been discussing:

    It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. [Quran 36:40]
    Last edited by 'Abdullah; 07-30-2020 at 08:42 PM.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abdullah View Post
    Please revisit basic physics, subjects such as relative motion and relative velocity. It’s frustrating that one talks about scientific errors and have very little to no knowledge of basic science.
    exactly...in all videos you see the Earth rotating around the sun because they always CHOOSE their reference point on the sun...that is the easiest way to explain the path of all celestial bodies in our solar system.
    but it basically all comes down to your choice of reference point. look it up if you do not believe...it is basic knowledge.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    I have previously stated that in 1512 the astronomer Nicholas Copernicus put forward his theory that the Sun is motionless at the center of the solar system, and that the planets revolve around it. The belief that the Sun is stationary was widespread amongst astronomers until the 20th century. It is now a well-established scientific fact that the Sun is not stationary, but is moving in an orbit around the centre of our Milky Way galaxy.

    So guess what it was science which was wrong and Quran was right. It’s an irony that now someone comes and says that Quran is wrong and science has been right? That’s the reason I did not like the subject of this thread to begin with. It’s an insult to compare Divine message ( Quran) with man’s own observations which are limited and have been proved wrong throughout human history.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Scientifically speaking, yes, it is wrong no matter the way you want to use the word relative.
    It doesn't matter, it is what it is. The earth rotates around the sun and the sun doesn't rotate around the earth.
    If you want to talk about perceptions that's another thing.
    if I am wrong...then please explain to me...why oh why does every single human on this Earth makes exacly the same observation that the sun is moving from sunrise to sunset? how come our own observations contradict science then?

    how come you believe something totally opposite then what you witness? why then do you buy that nonsence science if I am wrong. does it sound logical to you that you are told to believe something else then what you are observing?
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Hi all, I'm new in this forum and this is my first post.I grew up a Christian but I'm now more of an agnostic.All my morals and culture come from Christianity but I have always been in doubt about the existence of God.
    I like to challenge parts of the religion that don't make sense to me.
    Muslims believe in the same God (Allah) but they don't believe in Jesus as God nor in the Trinity.
    I often read Christians and Islamic apologists criticizing each other's religions.What I do is a take those critics and try to find out if there is any truth in them.If somebody criticizes Islam I try to reach Islamic sources to find out if the critic is valid.
    This next challenge originated by listening to a video from an ex muslim who calls himself "(name removed)".
    He claims the Quran is full of scientific errors and this is one of them.
    He refers to Quran 36 verse 38 specifically.
    Here is the english translation:Quran 36

    37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
    38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
    39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
    40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

    There are two different interpretations as far as I know.
    Verse 38 refers to the daily sunset and the sun prostrating waiting for permission to rise again
    orVerse 38 refers to the sun going into the end of its life and therefore the end of human life (resurrection day).

    I found a hadith which seems to clearly show this whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop after sunset (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
    The hadith continues:"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

    This is the hadith I'm talking about:

    Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

    Does this proves the Quran has scientific errors and this is one of them?
    How else you interpret this passage?
    Prophet Muhammad could have commited scientific errors but not Allah and this verse is from Allah although the explanation is from Muhammad.

    Challenging a religion to find the truth is not welcome in certain forums so if that is the case in this forum please disregard my whole post and I will not pursue the discussion.
    Eddy, welcome to the forum.
    To your question I will say that you cannot understand it because you might not be a master in the field of astrology or cosmology or whatever like that and also you might not be master in linguistics, specially in Arabic as a language. And don’t expect that every Muslim will be a master astronaut or a perfect linguistic in Arabic for this particular question. What we consider about Science and Quran is that Science is a traveler and Quran is the right path to destination. Science is still exploring the truths mentioned in the Quran, and when the experts in different fields read Quran, they revert to Islam and I can give you hundreds of examples where experts in the field of embryology, astrology, deep oceans, mathematics, physics and so on have reverted to Islam after reading the Quran about their own field of expertise. The point is only when they read Quran and make comparisons with what you call as Science.
    Coming back to your question, your major objection seems to be on the wordings of hadith of the Prophet (PBUH). So please note that the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
    This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen. Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun motion is what appears to him from earth.
    You are not even a free thinker because you are talking about errors in sculpture while your question went over the wordings of hadith.
    You only deserve to think and throw such question only and only when you are master or an expert in that field and I know that today there is literature available on internet about astrology which if you start only reading today, you cannot finish that for the rest of your life. The example which you wrote that of the lamp,shows that you are totally ignorant in the field of astrology and cosmology at least. So your question is a lay man’s question.
    Secondly, if you don’t understand the things which you can see, how can I expect you to understand the Unseen? Though in case of Viruses for example, you do very fairly believe in Viruses although I can bet that you never have seen a Virus yourself but only its signs and symptoms.
    When you read about cosmology and the star things and you find that your whole earth is like a dot in the universe, and even the Sun and the milky way you are living in is a dot as compared to the Universe, then come again and ask the same question again. Of course you can skip the Multiverse for the time being.
    Stay blessed.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by '[COLOR=#ff0000
    Abdullah[/COLOR];3030478]the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.
    This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen.

    To be more accurate, shouldn’t we say “sunlight has moved away from our location” or “sunlight has come upon our location”? However, we universally use the terms sunrise, sunset, and statements like the sun has risen, the sun has set, etc. because this is how the sun appears to us here on earth.

    Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun moving is what appears to him from earth.

    format_quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#ff0000
    Saira Khan[/COLOR];3030599]the Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth. This is no different than how the rest of the world uses the terms sunset and sunrise. Even NASA uses such terms. When the day ends, we say the sun has set, and when the day begins, we say the sun has risen.

    Therefore, the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is trying describe the same phenomenon to a 7th century Arab in words that he will understand because the sun motion is what appears to him from earth.
    I see so you guys are copying and pasting information from who knows where.
    Can you tell us a least where are pasting this information from?
    Well the point is that obviously you share the same views with the person who really wrote that text.

    This is actually the most important text written by Abdullah because it answers the main point of this thread.

    This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.

    I wonder how popular is this view?
    Maybe some of you can elaborate.
    The problem I have with this part is that Abdullah says "Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist."
    He is speaking as if he knew in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.How does he know in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.
    I don't know if this is actually how the majority of Muslims think.
    I don't know.

    Thanks as always for your input.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    Narrated Abu Dharr:
    I entered the mosque while Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by `Abdullah.

    حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو مُعَاوِيَةَ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ـ هُوَ التَّيْمِيُّ ـ عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ، قَالَ دَخَلْتُ الْمَسْجِدَ وَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم جَالِسٌ، فَلَمَّا غَرَبَتِ الشَّمْسُ قَالَ ‏"‏ يَا أَبَا ذَرٍّ هَلْ تَدْرِي أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ هَذِهِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَإِنَّهَا تَذْهَبُ تَسْتَأْذِنُ فِي السُّجُودِ فَيُؤْذَنُ لَهَا، وَكَأَنَّهَا قَدْ قِيلَ لَهَا ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ‏.‏ فَتَطْلُعُ مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا ‏"‏‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَرَأَ ‏{‏ذَلِكَ مُسْتَقَرٌّ لَهَا‏}‏ فِي قِرَاءَةِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ‏.‏
    Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari 7424
    In-book reference: Book 97, Hadith 52
    USC-MSA web (English) reference: Vol. 9, Book 93, Hadith 520

    Obviously there were no space shuttles in 7th century. Prophet ( peace be upon him) and his companion are discussing a common observation which you and I see on daily basis. Don’t we see that sun rises and sets on daily basis even though we know that sun never sets or rises and still we observe this phenomena on daily basis when we look from earth. Now if you go outside into the space, then you are changing your point of reference and as a result will have different observation.
    Last edited by 'Abdullah; 07-31-2020 at 06:57 AM.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    The objective:
    Focus in the 24 hour cycle (day and night),The cycle that begins when Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again.
    Only on the 24 hour cycle and on prophet Muhammad's initial question.
    Where does the sun goes after sunset?
    I don't think anybody has answered why prophet Muhammad asked this question.
    If he knew how the solar system works then he shouldn't have asked this question because makes no sense.
    The question makes no sense and the answer doesn't either.
    Of course speaking according to what we know now.
    An easy way out is to say is all figurative speech or a metaphor but that can be taken as a cop-out.

    I understand it must be frustration answering my questions but believe me I do appreciate it.
    Seems like you have changed your stance quite a bit, early on it was only an attempt to understand 24 hour cycle ( day/night) and since that has been answered, you are having hard time to accept that there is no scientific error in the verses of Quran and the Hadith in question.

    Is this the only thing in your way of accepting Islam or there are more questions?
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    Let us try something different and hope you will understand this time:

    We have a fan on our desk and it works on batteries.
    If you turn the fan on your observation could be: the blades are turning clockwise at the rate of 100 RPM.
    Now grab the fan by the blades and lift it up. if the motor of the fan is strong enough, you will now observe the foot and casing rotating counter clockwise at the rate of max 100 RPM...right?

    Now let us say, the fan is not on the desk floating around in a void and there is nothing else in the distance to orientate on.
    In this case, the ant sitting on the casing of the fan (Ant C) will make the observation that the blade will rotate with 100 RPM CW.
    The ant sitting on the blade looking in the other direction (Ant B) will make the observation that the casing will rotate with 100RPM also CW.

    the ant floating alone in the distante looking at the fan will have one of the next observation depending on the situation:
    1 he either shares the same observation as one of the ants B or C;
    2 he sees the casing and blades both rotating (for example case 50 RPM CCM and blade 50 RPM CW) or (case 50 RPM CW and blade 150 RPM CW);
    3 he can even see the case and blade both rotating on a totally different axis or a combination of these observations.

    It gets more complicated if Ant A is also somehow rotating....because who will know that if there is no orientation point?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I see so you guys are copying and pasting information from who knows where.
    Can you tell us a least where are pasting this information from?
    Well the point is that obviously you share the same views with the person who really wrote that text.

    This is actually the most important text written by Abdullah because it answers the main point of this thread.

    This contention can easily be resolved by pointing out that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist. A resident of this planet observes the sun moving from sunrise to sunset and not the earth.

    I wonder how popular is this view?
    Maybe some of you can elaborate.
    The problem I have with this part is that Abdullah says "Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist."
    He is speaking as if he knew in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.How does he know in what context Prophet Muhammad was speaking.
    I don't know if this is actually how the majority of Muslims think.
    I don't know.

    Thanks as always for your input.
    So, lets get back to our example with the fan and the ants...
    if you hear one of the ants say: "the casing is rising on my left and setting on my right", can you determine then which of the Ants A B or C could have said that?
    I think it is certain that it was Ant B right?

    in the same way we can say that that Muhammad was speaking in the context of how things appear to be from Earth.
    It is nothing but logic.

    I am asking you again...just look at the sun...make your own observations...now tell me with a straight face that you do not see the sun rotating around you.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Hi all, I'm new in this forum and this is my first post.I grew up a Christian but I'm now more of an agnostic.All my morals and culture come from Christianity but I have always been in doubt about the existence of God.
    I like to challenge parts of the religion that don't make sense to me.
    Muslims believe in the same God (Allah) but they don't believe in Jesus as God nor in the Trinity.
    I often read Christians and Islamic apologists criticizing each other's religions.What I do is a take those critics and try to find out if there is any truth in them.If somebody criticizes Islam I try to reach Islamic sources to find out if the critic is valid.
    This next challenge originated by listening to a video from an ex muslim who calls himself "(name removed)".
    He claims the Quran is full of scientific errors and this is one of them.
    He refers to Quran 36 verse 38 specifically.
    Here is the english translation:Quran 36

    37) And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it [the light of] day, so they are in darkness.
    38) And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing"
    39) And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk.
    40) It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.

    There are two different interpretations as far as I know.
    Verse 38 refers to the daily sunset and the sun prostrating waiting for permission to rise again
    orVerse 38 refers to the sun going into the end of its life and therefore the end of human life (resurrection day).

    I found a hadith which seems to clearly show this whole set describes a 24-hour cycle (day and night) and verse 38 "stopping point" refers to the daily Sun stop after sunset (where the sun prostrates beneath the Throne) as mentioned in the same hadith.
    The hadith continues:"then it asks for permission (to rise) and permission is given to it."So after getting permission the sun rises again for another day until the night comes and the sun stops again in its resting place beneath Allah's Throne.The cycle continues every day until one day/night permission will be denied.

    This is the hadith I'm talking about:

    Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38)(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

    Does this proves the Quran has scientific errors and this is one of them?
    How else you interpret this passage?
    Prophet Muhammad could have commited scientific errors but not Allah and this verse is from Allah although the explanation is from Muhammad.

    Challenging a religion to find the truth is not welcome in certain forums so if that is the case in this forum please disregard my whole post and I will not pursue the discussion.
    It only takes a non-Muslim to ask such question. Let me be clear, Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) is absolute. Meaning he is perfect and only HIM is perfect. No such thing as a perfect man or perfect woman or a man being perfectionist or a woman being perfectionist. In fact anyone who seeks to be a perfectionist is a large sign of how defective he or she is and how imperfect he or she is. NOT even the prophets are perfect, only Allah (subhananu Wa Talaa) is absolute and perfect. Qura'an is his words, he created math, he created languages, he created virus, bacteria, he created all viruses even COVID-19, he created animals, birds, he created air, he created ozone layer, he created planets, sun, mercury, venus, all the planets. He created the black hole, he created dust, he created everything. He created physics, he created the male and he created the female. He created everything you see in front of you..perfect math between sun and Earth, between planets, everything he created for purpose and with reason and nothing he creates for fun and play. The science you are so attached too is actually trying to reach or catch up to Islam and not the other away around. I mean now the scientists discovered that the male and female have different brains and they come from two different worlds, Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) already said in the Quraan that the male is not like the female. Science now only early in the 1900's discovered the egg and sperm, Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) already talked about the sperm and how the baby is created and develop on the womb. We Muslims know all of this already before science in the 1900 or 2000's tells us what we know..in fact it even further confirm our believe and the power of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) and make us even stronger believer.

    Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) is perfect. He makes no mistake. The qura'an is word of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) so it is perfect and there are not contradictions or mistake because Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) is perfect his words are perfect and he created science so there are no errors in his creation because Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) never makes mistake or error. To believe otherwise make you a disbeliever. Simple as put.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    [QUOTE=Eddy;3030444]The objective:Focus in the 24 hour cycle (day and night),The cycle that begins when Allah gives permission to the sun to rise again.Only on the 24 hour cycle and on prophet Muhammad's initial question.Where does the sun goes after sunset?I don't think anybody has answered why prophet Muhammad asked this question.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Muhammad sas asked this question for education purposes. He used this question as an introduction to the information he wanted to share with his pupils.
    If he knew how the solar system works then he shouldn't have asked this question because makes no sense.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    For you it makes no sense...because you are still ignoring to accept several scientific facts...for us it makes perfectly sense.
    The question makes no sense and the answer doesn't either.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Again...and again....and again...you cannot observe this as a human. so it is a given information we have to accept.
    Of course speaking according to what we know now.An easy way out is to say is all figurative speech or a metaphor but that can be taken as a cop-out.[QUOTE=Eddy;3030444]It is NOT figurative speech nor a methaphor...it is meant litterally but in a way you and I cannot observe...but nvm I am not expecting from you to understand this.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I understand it must be frustration answering my questions but believe me I do appreciate it.
    The frustration is not about answering you questions...it is more about finding a way to make you understand the answers.to find a way to make you understand that science is not a substitution of religion...but science is limited...and there are things happening in the world that science cannot grasp.so religion is an extention of science and they do not contradict each other.It is a huge and complicated task to make you realize that.
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullah View Post
    "Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) here is speaking in the context of how things appear to be from earth not how as they really exist."
    So prophet Muhammad is speaking in the context of how things appear.
    The way things appear is not the way really are as you pointed out.
    So you are admitting that prophet Muhammad is being scientifically wrong when describing the trajectory of the sun.
    Yes, he wanted to convey his message to people who wouldn't understand otherwise.
    So because he is communicating to an ignorant person he is giving a scientifically incorrect message to the rest of humanity.
    Am I correct?
    My question to you.
    Wouldn't be easier just to teach the facts as they really are and hope these ignorant people would understand?
    Prophet Muhammad didn't have a problem telling the ignorant person that the sun prostrates underneath Allah's throne waiting for permission to rise again.
    Do you think the ignorant person had no problem understanding this prostration thing but he wouldn't understand sunset is caused by planet earth rotation?
    I find that hard to believe.
    The fact is that according to your interpretation the Quran and Hadith contain scientific errors.
    Now I don't want to make your opinion a true representation of all the Islamic world.
    I don't know if you are a scholar.
    Are you?
    Is your view on this matter the view of all (or at least most) Muslims out of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world?
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    Re: Does the Quran have scientific errors?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    The frustration is not about answering you questions...it is more about finding a way to make you understand the answers.to find a way to make you understand that science is not a substitution of religion...but science is limited...and there are things happening in the world that science cannot grasp.so religion is an extention of science and they do not contradict each other.It is a huge and complicated task to make you realize that.
    Ümit, don't worry, your message is being understood, I'm a well educated man.
    You don't need to be giving me sophisticated examples in order to illustrate a simple concept. No need. I understood the first time.
    Now you're saying science is limited and that can be true but you have to admit that thanks to science we live in a better society now than 1400 years ago.
    Am I correct.
    Can religion help you in building sophisticated things like airplanes, cruise ships, automoviles, cell phones and every gadget you can imagine?
    Can religion help you build modern cities with all the infrastructure required, climate control indoors and all amenities to make life easier to us humans.
    Science is the number one reason we are what we are in terms of technology today.
    You say science is limited but are you giving science the respect that it deserves?
    I don't think so.
    I look at religion for moral guidance mainly but I don't think one can compete with the other as you seem to be doing.
    Science helps the police investigators to uncover crimes and that is the way I like to use science to uncover the truth.
    That is what I'm doing here.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    I am asking you again...just look at the sun...make your own observations...now tell me with a straight face that you do not see the sun rotating around you.
    You do need to understand the difference between "perception" and "reality'.
    Yes, I do see the sun rising from the east and setting on the west and travelling around planet earth but ......
    Due to my many years of education I understand that is only a perception from my point of view.
    You can say it is an optical illusion.
    But if you ask me, or my friends or most of the people I know what causes sunset I can assure you that 100% of them would know that sunset is caused by the rotation of planet earth and not by the sun rotating around earth.

    Thanks for your patience and input.
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