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Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

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    Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

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    Let me explain.
    I like to study Islam and other religions in search for the truth.
    It is totally frustrating to read the Quran and find suspicious passages that are obviously violent and then when asking Muslims the answer is always a very convenient "you have to look at the context".
    Fine, what is the context?
    In many occasions the context is still violent.
    Ok, Muslims say, in that case look at the total context of the whole Quran.
    Fine, what is the total context of the Quran in those specific situations?
    The total context is still the same, it is violent unless you submit to Allah or pay the Jizya.
    Are those Muslims saying that Allah waisted most of the Quran giving instructions that only apply at 7th century situations where prophet Muhammad was involved?
    What if today a Muslim country is invaded by foreign forces?
    Do Muslim have the permission from Allah to defend themselves by attacking and killing the invaders unless they stop the attacks or pay the jizya?
    It is kind of hard to defend yourself and not killing your enemy on a war situation, don't you think?

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Let me explain.
    I like to study Islam and other religions in search for the truth.
    It is totally frustrating to read the Quran and find suspicious passages that are obviously violent and then when asking Muslims the answer is always a very convenient "you have to look at the context".
    Fine, what is the context?
    I do not know which "suspicious passages" you exactly mean but let me make it even more convenient for you:
    The context can be found in one of the Tafsirs. I would recommend Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

    The Tafsir explains which verse is revealed where, when, why or what does it refer to, and of course the translation. So, in short it provides the basic information you AT LEAST need to know to understand a verse.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    In many occasions the context is still violent.
    yeah so?
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    Ok, Muslims say, in that case look at the total context of the whole Quran.
    Fine, what is the total context of the Quran in those specific situations?
    The total context is still the same, it is violent unless you submit to Allah or pay the Jizya.
    is it? or is it just your "convenient" conclusion?

    Here is some information about dhimmis and jizya:
    https://www.------------/question/do...izya-or-death/

    Here is the part of the above link you should AT LEAST read to understand the concept of jizya....for you conviently quoted:
    We begin with a proper explanation of what exactly is a dhimmi. Dhimmi is a historical term referring to non-Muslim subjects of a Muslim state [2]. The word literally means, “One whose responsibility is taken” or “people with whom a covenant or compact has been made” [3]. The word describes citizens of a Muslim State afforded security over their persons, property and religious practice in return for a tax, the jizya. Historically, when empires won battles and wars, common men were subjugated, looted and forced to work as laborers and serve in the military. Islam did away with such practice by affording all non-Muslim subjects the special dhimmi status [4].
    Dhimmis had a special place in Medina. Prophet Muhammad(sa) said, “If anyone wrongs a man with whom a covenant has been made [i.e. a dhimmi], or curtails any right of his, or imposes on him more than he can bear, or takes anything from him without his ready agreement, I shall be his adversary on the Day of Resurrection.” [1,5]
    He also made it clear that the protection of their life and honor was the responsibility of the Muslims, and failing in this regard would incur God’s wrath, “Whoever killed a Mu’ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims, i.e. a dhimmi) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling).” [6] At the conquest of Mecca, Prophet Muhammad(sa) had the upper hand against the personalities who had persecuted him for over two decades. He could have silenced his enemies forever. Instead, he turned to the Meccans and asked:
    ‘O’ Quraish! How do you think I would treat you?’ They replied: ‘We expect nothing but good from you as you are a noble and kind brother to us and the son of a noble and kind brother as well.’ The Prophet said, ‘I say to you what the Prophet Joseph said to his brothers: ‘No blame shall lie on you this day! You are free to go.’ [7]
    Even before the conquest of Mecca, the Charter of Medina set the precedent for the treatment of mu’ahids (dhimmis are those non-Muslim subjects who become subjects after a war. If there is no war and there is a negotiated settlement then they are called mu’ahids). When Prophet Muhammad(sa) was popularly appointed Medina’s ruler, he entered into a pact with the Jewish communities of Medina. Through this pact, he granted equal political rights to non-Muslims. They were ensured complete freedom of religion. They were not required to take part in the religious wars of the Muslims, but were required to fight a common enemy of the State. Even as the head of state, Prophet Muhammad(sa) afforded non-Muslims the same social status he afforded Muslims. For example, “Once a funeral procession passed before Prophet Muhammad(sa) and he stood up [out of respect]. He was told that he [the dead man] was a Jew. Upon this he remarked: ‘Was he not a human being or did he not have a soul?’ [8]
    After the Prophet Muhammad’s demise, non-Muslim inhabitants of the fast-expanding Islamic empire enjoyed the same dignified treatment. [9] When Umar, Second Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad(sa), conquered Jerusalem, he entered into a pact with all inhabitants of the city, declaring:
    In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, most Beneficent. This is a covenant of peace granted by the slave of Allah, the commander of the faithful ‘Umar to the people of Jerusalem. They are granted protection for their lives, their property, their churches, and their Crosses, in whatever condition they are. All of them are granted the same protection. No one will dwell in their churches, nor will they be destroyed and nothing will be reduced of their belongings. Nothing shall be taken from their Crosses or their property. There will be no compulsion on them regarding their religion, nor will any one of them be troubled. [10]
    A dhimmi assassinated Umar in 644 CE. Rather than lashing out against dhimmis, at his deathbed, Umar specifically ordered:
    I urge him (i.e., the new Caliph) to take care of those non-Muslims who are under the protection of Allah and His Messenger in that he should observe the convention agreed upon with them, and fight on their behalf (to secure their safety) and he should not over-tax them beyond their capability. [11]
    The example we see from Umar specifically condemns taxing dhimmis beyond what they can bear. Instead, Muslims were commanded to care for dhimmis, fight for dhimmis, and to keep dhimmis safe.
    Critics also allege that Umar enforced taxation on non-Muslims populations under penalty of death. To support this assertion, they cite the Qur’an 9:29:
    Fight those from among the People of the Book who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax with their own hand and acknowledge their subjection. [12]
    Nowhere does this verse suggest that death is a penalty for not paying your taxes. The Qur’an has mentioned the use of the death penalty elsewhere for other reasons, unrelated to tax evasion:
    And kill not the soul which Allah has forbidden except for just cause. And whoso is killed wrongfully, We have surely given his heir authority to demand retaliation, but let him not exceed the prescribed bounds in slaying; for therein he is helped by law. [13]
    Islam has reserved the death penalty for such crimes as treason, murder, or other severe acts of violence that shock the conscience. Umar, Second Khalifa of Prophet Muhammad(sa), never sentenced a non-Muslim to death for not paying his taxes.
    Critics allege that Muslim immigrants to Western nations consider themselves “divinely entitled” to the welfare payments they receive in these countries. Quoting the following verse, they claim that Muslims consider the Western nations their dhimmis and such welfare payment the jizya. [14]
    Fight those from among the People of the Book who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering a favor and acknowledge their subjection. [15]
    Obviously, even plainly reading this verse demonstrates that no connection exists between the allegation and the verse itself. Having established that Islam required Muslims to protect dhimmis with equal and just treatment, we transition to the allegations regarding jizya.
    Remember, the term dhimmi literally means “protected.” If no such protection existed, such minority communities could potentially be exploited. The jizya tax was the only tax imposed on non-Muslims, and it was less in number and amount than taxes on the Muslims of that state. The term jizya comes from same Arabic root as jaza’ which means “reward” and “compensation.” So according to Shariah law, that money returned to the minorities. The jizya tax, like other taxes, creates accountability on the part of the government to do right by its citizens—not unlike governments that deal with immigration and minority communities. In Christian ruled Sicily, for example, the Christian officials had such a tax for minorities—and they too called it jizya.
    Thus, non-Muslims paid jizya as free citizens of the Muslim State in return for protection of their civil and political liberties. Aside from this, critics also hide the fact that Muslims were also taxed. The tax levied on Muslims was on some occasions a heavier tax than the jizya. Additionally, Muslims were obligated to perform military service, from which all non-Muslims were exempt. [16]
    Jizya served as the sole citizen tax to assure protection from all foreign attacks. Thus, if protection could not be promised then jizya was impermissible. In his book “The Preaching of Islam,” Thomas Arnold records a statement of the Muslim general, Khalid bin Waleed, “In a treaty made by Khalid with some town in the neighborhood of Hirah, he writes; ‘If we protect you, then Jizya is due to us; but if we do not, then it is not.’” [17]






    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    Are those Muslims saying that Allah waisted most of the Quran giving instructions that only apply at 7th century situations where prophet Muhammad was involved?
    What if today a Muslim country is invaded by foreign forces?

    I do not understand what you are trying to say here. you expect muslims to be non-violent and peacefull during war? I do not get it. If a muslim country is invaded by foreign forced, a jihad will be called out and every muslim will fight till their last breath or until they are victorious....just a basic human right to defend yourself.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Do Muslim have the permission from Allah to defend themselves by attacking and killing the invaders unless they stop the attacks or pay the jizya?
    It is kind of hard to defend yourself and not killing your enemy on a war situation, don't you think?
    no...during war, you fight and you kill.
    This refers to the situation where the enemy surrenders or ceases to fight....from that moment a muslim is not allowed anymore to just continue his violence and killings.

    Very violent and barbaric...right?

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    The instruction to kill the enemies of islam is violent? U.S. killing muslims is not violent, china and other countries killing muslims is not violent? U.S. dropping a bomb on general public who were innocent is not violent?!! That's ridiculous. Because the target is islam which is why everyone wants to put out something which doesnt fit their mind.
    If a foreigner invades a muslim country, all the muslims are obliged to fight the enemies. Islam doesnt mean peace at all times! And if any country doesnt have shariah, it is obligated for muslims to fight that ruler so that country becomes islamic state, but if the ruler surrenders then no fight would take place. And non muslims would be given choice of either becoming muslims or pay jizya or fight.
    But if u are learning about islam, you shouldnt start with what is the system of rulings and all. You should know our beliefs first as that is most important. What we believe in, etc. After that u learn about all this.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yrvhere? View Post
    The instruction to kill the enemies of islam is violent? U.S. killing muslims is not violent, china and other countries killing muslims is not violent? U.S. dropping a bomb on general public who were innocent is not violent?!! That's ridiculous. Because the target is islam which is why everyone wants to put out something which doesnt fit their mind.
    If a foreigner invades a muslim country, all the muslims are obliged to fight the enemies. Islam doesnt mean peace at all times! And if any country doesnt have shariah, it is obligated for muslims to fight that ruler so that country becomes islamic state, but if the ruler surrenders then no fight would take place. And non muslims would be given choice of either becoming muslims or pay jizya or fight.
    But if u are learning about islam, you shouldnt start with what is the system of rulings and all. You should know our beliefs first as that is most important. What we believe in, etc. After that u learn about all this.
    People being bad and evil is not an excuse for us to be bad and evil as well. Violence in the world, people getiing killed shouldn't be an invitation for us to do the same.

    But that is not the issue here.

    what it is about is the association of Islaam as a religion with violence. He doesn't understand how a religion can preach violence and at the same time be considered as "peaceful".

    But as you already stated, Islaam does not expect us to be non-violent at all times. Islaam respects our basic human rights to defend ourselves when we need to.
    These rules about violence, when we may or may not fight against the enemy, and the jizya is not just for our benefit but it is about the protection of them from us. (with them I mean, the enemy who surrenders, ceased violence or people that choose to live in an Islamic state enjoying protection while retaining their own religion.
    It it about the rights that those people have over us.

    More or less basic common rules also adopted in the wester "civilized" world like, you may not shoot an unarmed man...you cannot use violence on a person who already surrendered....do not use excessive force, just enough to neutralize the danger and secure the situation etc.
    So it is not so different different.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    I do not know which "suspicious passages" you exactly mean
    Thanks Ümit for responding to my question.
    Let's use a very controversial surah, Quran 9:29.

    Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah, nor in the Last Day, and do not take as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared as unlawful, and do not profess the Faith of Truth; (fight them) until they pay jizyah with their own hands while they are subdued.
    I read the tafsir and all the story around the time when this surah was revealed and still cannot understand why this only applies to that specific situation.
    The tafsir says this applies to that specific situation but the Quran doesn't.
    Who do I believe?
    Also you could say on other surah it is said "Fight only those who fight you".
    Are we saying that Allah made a mistake and one surah contradicts other surahs?
    Shouldn't both be valid?
    This surah is very clear, "Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah...", I don't think it is there to be ignored.
    As a matter of fact many Muslims around the world choose not to ignore this surah.
    Something is very wrong or not very clear here.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yrvhere? View Post
    The instruction to kill the enemies of islam is violent?
    Are the members of other religions the enemies?
    According to surah 9:29 they are.
    So yes it is violent to kill people from other religions who are not fighting you.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    So yes it is violent to kill people from other religions who are not fighting you.
    Yea well this is where you need the context. Had every muslim felt this way or believed this was what should be done, you'd be dead already. So clearly, this is a YOU issue.
    Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    D e a t h

    is the easiest
    of all things after it
    ; ;

    the hardest
    of all things before it

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma* View Post
    Had every muslim felt this way or believed this was what should be done, you'd be dead already.
    You don't need every Muslim to believe this is what should be done, only a few out of 1.6 billion is more than enough.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    You don't need every Muslim to believe this is what should be done, only a few out of 1.6 billion is more than enough.
    That can be said about anything/anyone though. Its a personal and individual issue not a majority one.
    I wouldn't say this ayah is problematic nor is it what triggers people to do what they do. Goes in much deeper than that, don't you think?
    Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    D e a t h

    is the easiest
    of all things after it
    ; ;

    the hardest
    of all things before it

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    Every verse of Quran applies to all times which is why Quran is a miracle. Its verses cannot contradict each other. This is the work of scholars to tell us how that verse can fit in our times. We laymen cannot interpret Quran in the way which pleases us!
    And no, not all the non muslims are to be killed. Only those who oppose islam by words, actions which we can call blasphemy are to be faught. If they live their own life and are paying jizya, then their lives and properties are to be protected by islamic state.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yrvhere? View Post
    And no, not all the non muslims are to be killed. Only those who oppose islam by words, actions which we can call blasphemy are to be faught.
    So you're confirming that those who oppose Islam by "words" (among other things) are to be faught?
    That is what I call very violent.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Thanks Ümit for responding to my question.
    Let's use a very controversial surah, Quran 9:29.



    I read the tafsir and all the story around the time when this surah was revealed and still cannot understand why this only applies to that specific situation.
    The tafsir says this applies to that specific situation but the Quran doesn't.
    What do you mean "the Quraan doesn't"? How do you know what the Quraan says about which situations this verse applies to?
    Again, the Tafsirs explain how the verses should be interpretet. There is no mistake...there is no contradiction.
    The Quraan with the explanation of the Tafsir is very clear on this.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    Who do I believe?
    Also you could say on other surah it is said "Fight only those who fight you".
    Thats right, that is the general message in Islaam. I believe there are multiple verses throughout the Quraan giving us this specific message.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    Are we saying that Allah made a mistake and one surah contradicts other surahs?
    Shouldn't both be valid?
    both are valid. one of them in general...the other was about a specific situation.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    This surah is very clear, "Fight those People of the Book who do not believe in Allah...", I don't think it is there to be ignored.
    As a matter of fact many Muslims around the world choose not to ignore this surah.
    Something is very wrong or not very clear here.
    define "many muslims"
    most of them are tolerant and peaceful. only a handfull so called "muslims" strap bombs on their bodies and blow themselves up in crowded areas.
    We do not even know whether they truely muslims or just pretending to be one.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    Are the members of other religions the enemies?
    According to surah 9:29 they are.
    So yes it is violent to kill people from other religions who are not fighting you.
    in this specific situation, yes they were enemies and they were hostile.
    that doesn't apply to every member of other religions.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    So you're confirming that those who oppose Islam by "words" (among other things) are to be faught?
    That is what I call very violent.
    You must see that differently:

    The one opposing Islaam by words (if he lives in the western world) does nothing wrong according to the law of the country he lives in.
    However, when this would happen in a country with shariah, then he DOES go against the law so this person must be "fought" or brought back to justice.
    So either you pay the jizya, or you will be punished.

    Isn't the western world the same where you will be arrested or fined if you break the law? and if you choose not to cooperate, then they will make you with applying force on you?

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    Context - the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
    I don’t understand why people hate being told to understand the context of something they’re reading, specifically when it comes to Islam.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    What do you mean "the Quraan doesn't"? How do you know what the Quran says about which situations this verse applies to?
    I don't know and I don't think Muslims know either. There is no way to determine this verse was revealed to be used only on this specific situation just by reading the Quran.
    Muslims make that assumption based on the fact that this verse was revealed right before Muhammad's army was ready to attack the Byzantines, isn't that so?
    Now why would Allah send a revelation to be used only on a specific time and place?
    Makes no sense to me and Allah was not specific about that.
    Again, the verse doesn't say so, the ones who claim that are the so called Scholars as if they knew what Allah was thinking.
    It is totally understandable if some Muslims give the verse the meaning anybody would just by reading the Quran and the context based only on the Quran.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    both are valid. one of them in general...the other was about a specific situation.
    See, that's exactly what I mean. I tend to disagree this was meant to be used only once.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    define "many muslims"
    most of them are tolerant and peaceful. only a handfull so called "muslims" strap bombs on their bodies and blow themselves up in crowded areas.
    I agree, most Muslims are peaceful, no denying that but there are some that have good reasons to believe the scriptures don't mean what other Muslims believe.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    in this specific situation, yes they were enemies and they were hostile.
    that doesn't apply to every member of other religions.
    Again, the problem is that the Quran doesn't say that. The Quran makes a broad statement that includes all Christians and Jews.
    Most people around the world don't have a scholar next to them to interpret what they reading.
    We read all kinds of literature including the Bible and we never use an interpreter.
    All of a sudden we are told, wait a minute, you can't do that with the Quran, you need a scholar to understand it.
    The problem is which scholar do I believe since many of them interpret things differently, don't they.
    format_quote Originally Posted by keiv View Post
    I don’t understand why people hate being told to understand the context of something they’re reading, specifically when it comes to Islam.
    No, we don't hate it. We read the whole Quran and every passage around the verses in question, the problem is when the context comes from sources outside the book we are reading.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I don't know and I don't think Muslims know either. There is no way to determine this verse was revealed to be used only on this specific situation just by reading the Quran.
    Muslims make that assumption based on the fact that this verse was revealed right before Muhammad's army was ready to attack the Byzantines, isn't that so?
    Now why would Allah send a revelation to be used only on a specific time and place?
    Makes no sense to me and Allah was not specific about that.
    Again, the verse doesn't say so, the ones who claim that are the so called Scholars as if they knew what Allah was thinking.
    It is totally understandable if some Muslims give the verse the meaning anybody would just by reading the Quran and the context based only on the Quran.

    See, that's exactly what I mean. I tend to disagree this was meant to be used only once.

    I agree, most Muslims are peaceful, no denying that but there are some that have good reasons to believe the scriptures don't mean what other Muslims believe.

    Again, the problem is that the Quran doesn't say that. The Quran makes a broad statement that includes all Christians and Jews.
    Most people around the world don't have a scholar next to them to interpret what they reading.
    We read all kinds of literature including the Bible and we never use an interpreter.
    All of a sudden we are told, wait a minute, you can't do that with the Quran, you need a scholar to understand it.
    The problem is which scholar do I believe since many of them interpret things differently, don't they.

    No, we don't hate it. We read the whole Quran and every passage around the verses in question, the problem is when the context comes from sources outside the book we are reading.
    Wait...could you please point out to me where exactly İ spoke about a scholar? İ asked you to use a Tafsir.
    A Tafsir is the translation of a verse and backgrpumd information you at least need to know in order to undetstand the verse. And no matter which tagsir you take...all of them tell you that this verse refers to one specific situation.
    İf ypu dpubt that...then you should dig a little deeper to find out why scholars came to that conclusion instead of ranting here.

    Besides...there are many verses in the Qutaan that refer to a specific situation...for example Jews being turned into pigs and monkey for ignoring Allahs orders.

    So this is not an exception.

  20. #16
    peaceandlove's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Let me explain.
    I like to study Islam and other religions in search for the truth.
    It is totally frustrating to read the Quran and find suspicious passages that are obviously violent and then when asking Muslims the answer is always a very convenient "you have to look at the context".
    Fine, what is the context?
    In many occasions the context is still violent.
    Ok, Muslims say, in that case look at the total context of the whole Quran.
    Fine, what is the total context of the Quran in those specific situations?
    The total context is still the same, it is violent unless you submit to Allah or pay the Jizya.
    Are those Muslims saying that Allah waisted most of the Quran giving instructions that only apply at 7th century situations where prophet Muhammad was involved?
    What if today a Muslim country is invaded by foreign forces?
    Do Muslim have the permission from Allah to defend themselves by attacking and killing the invaders unless they stop the attacks or pay the jizya?
    It is kind of hard to defend yourself and not killing your enemy on a war situation, don't you think?
    Asalam O Alikum brother

    reading your post it look like you main concern is about war , Jihad and Jizya etc

    If you talk about Jiza, I know this is not a good exact example but you can say, in all countries every person had to pay tax, Did you agree? Right

    Now in muslim country Muslims should pay Zakat but what about non muslim as they did not belive what shoud they pay|? Now you can say they will pay Jizya (tax) that will make you understan it more easy so both muslims and non muslims are contribution so once you read the context both are paying not just non muslims

    Seconldy about fight and war, Well, the best answer you can find in the Holy Quran.

    Quran says in Surah 60 , Verses

    8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly andjustly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

    9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) indriving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). Itis such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

    Those two verses can in shah ALLAH clear all your doubts and mis conceptions, and give you what context we shoud do Jihad and war

    Tell me what you will do if some body will attach your house or country and try to kill innocent people, of cousrse you will definately fight with them so that what Quran give you permision

    Finally, one thing, donot try to mix some history muslim ruler wrong acts or any muslims wrong acts with Islam, you might be reading some history wrong events and asosciating it with Islam but that might be just a personal act.

    May Allah guides all of us
    Last edited by peaceandlove; 03-19-2021 at 04:22 PM.
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    Eddy's Avatar
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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    Wait...could you please point out to me where exactly İ spoke about a scholar? İ asked you to use a Tafsir.
    My bad, I assumed the people writing the Tafsirs were scholars, weren't they?
    I know that among other titles Ibn Kathir was considered a scholar (so I read in Wikipedia)

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yrvhere? View Post
    Every verse of Quran applies to all times which is why Quran is a miracle.
    That was my understanding but if you read the previous comments that is not the case according to other Muslims.
    It seems that some verses can indeed be interpreted in more than one way and that's my whole point.

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    My bad, I assumed the people writing the Tafsirs were scholars, weren't they?
    I know that among other titles Ibn Kathir was considered a scholar (so I read in Wikipedia)
    That is true...you are right.

    However if you look at it like that...you are always dependant of such people...for science you rely on scientists...for history you rely on historians and archeologists...for religion you need scholars.

    What İ mean...you have to get your basic background information from somewhere. Without that it is impossible to understand the true message of the Quraan.

    To give you a simple example:
    İ suppose you do not speak arabic...but you do umderstand that a language cannot be translated in another language 1 on 1...so there is always loss or mutilation of the original message. You do rely on translators for an accurate translation...but experience shows that there if you compare the work of different translators of the same verses, you will find essential differences.

    So how can you guarantee me that you are using the right translation. You definitely rely on some translator for this dont you?

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    Re: Are Muslims being picky when convenient?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    you are always dependant of such people...for science you rely on scientists...for history you rely on historians and archeologists...for religion you need scholars.

    What İ mean...you have to get your basic background information from somewhere. Without that it is impossible to understand the true message of the Quraan.
    The problem is that by relying exclusively on the so called scholars your religion is not what Allah might have meant it to be by it is what Ibn Kathir and others scholars decided it should be.
    They did a good job figuring out the background and specific times of each revelations but then they took a big leap and distorted the final message of Allah.
    Who are they to decide what Allah meant to say?
    Isn't the message of Allah not clear enough for you?
    You can translate all you want but you shouldn't change the meaning of Allah's words.
    Maybe the truth is not what you would like it to be but the truth is the truth.
    You can avoid it if you want but you know is there for you to see it when you decide to do it.
    It's up to you to believe in the Quran and Allah or to believe in Ibn Kathir and other scholars.
    Last edited by Eddy; 03-20-2021 at 04:58 PM. Reason: missing words


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