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So far an unanswerable question

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    SeeksOnlyTruth's Avatar Full Member
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    So far an unanswerable question

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    I’m a Christian exploring Islam and in my quest to better understand Islam I’ve come across somethings that I’ve yet to get a satisfactory answer to them this will definitely be a back and forth thing for I have many questions and either I don’t get an answer that I feel content with risking my current beliefs or the people that I talk to feel like I’m bashing Islam ( though all I really want is answer that come from love and understanding as do all of my questions ). So if anyone can do that for me I’d love to ask them here. Trust me these questions are challenging and blunt so if you are just going to write me off as an ignorant Christian or get angry at what I ask please pass this and let someone who will be patient and truly cares answer me.
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    Sure, you can ask your questions here and we will try to answer them to the best of our ability, or refer you to resources where you can find the answers.
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    Why do you say that the Bible has been corrupted
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    To be Muslim we would have to believe that it is corrupt because Allah tells us it has been distorted, and it also isn't in line with our beliefs.

    Just logically one would have to overcome the other in its truth, and for us it is Quran.
    So far an unanswerable question

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    the hardest
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    format_quote Originally Posted by SeeksOnlyTruth View Post
    Why do you say that the Bible has been corrupted
    That is not an unanswerable question.

    we have many reasons for that claim:
    1. The bible exist in many different languages. only 1 of them can be the original one. all others are false.
    2. even within a certain language, there are more than 30 different versions. only one can be original.
    3. it is well known that the church altered the text multiple times throughout the years.
    4. this is a little complicated to explain:
      within Islam: God reveals some verses to His prophet which forms the holy book. everything else the prophet does and says in his life forms the ahadeeth.
      the holy book is the absolute truth and without errors.
      the ahadeeth is very useful as a guide for us, but not all ahadeeth are equally reliable...some can contain errors.

      within christianity: God the holy spirit revealed some verses to Jesus the son, which forms the OT...only that part in original form and language forms the true bible...which we call the Injil.
      however, these actual verses in original form and language is unfortunately not available anymore.

      everything else Jesus the son has done and said formes Jesus's ahadeeth and therefore may contain errors.
      So Johannus, Mattheus etc...everything that the disciples wrote are ahadeeth.
      combining the ahadeeth with the actual revealed verses and calling that the Bible therefore forms a holy book that contains errors.
    5. even wenn everything were original and accurate, then still the Quraan is the newest message of God and therefore replaces every other holy book, whether corrupted or not.


    Wenn people raise Jesus to a God status, then they also raise the disciples to a prophet status, because they had directly contact with Jesus.
    so, everything Jesus has said and done suddenly becomes divine and everything the disciples have said and done become the ahadeeth...which is a shift of the truth.

    That is why the modern Bible has so many logical errors.
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    Speaker Re: So far an unanswerable question

    To add above,Munich University ran a check on bible and there were more than a lac errors
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    Ok I can definitely see this as probable thanks. But what about when Muhammad talks about where the sun goes at night or where sperm comes from? Because we know now that the sun doesn’t move and we’ll we all know where sperm comes from lol (again I’m just seeking the truth I’m not trying to offend anyone. I don’t want to die and God tells me I was almost right but not enough to see heaven)
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    format_quote Originally Posted by SeeksOnlyTruth View Post
    Ok I can definitely see this as probable thanks. But what about when Muhammad talks about where the sun goes at night or where sperm comes from? Because we know now that the sun doesn’t move and we’ll we all know where sperm comes from lol (again I’m just seeking the truth I’m not trying to offend anyone. I don’t want to die and God tells me I was almost right but not enough to see heaven)
    The sun does move. Please excuse the music - I couldn't find any other video.



    Make sure to read this article to get the full picture of what's intended in the video. https://www.forbes.com/sites/startsw...e-interesting/

    I'm not sure what you mean by the other thing.
    Last edited by 'Abd-al Latif; 01-17-2022 at 08:07 PM.
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    So far an unanswerable question

    And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.”
    [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]


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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    format_quote Originally Posted by SeeksOnlyTruth View Post
    Ok I can definitely see this as probable thanks. But what about when Muhammad talks about where the sun goes at night or where sperm comes from? Because we know now that the sun doesn’t move and we’ll we all know where sperm comes from lol (again I’m just seeking the truth I’m not trying to offend anyone. I don’t want to die and God tells me I was almost right but not enough to see heaven)
    I think you are referring to verse 18:86:
    until he reached the setting ˹point˺ of the sun, which appeared to him to be setting in a spring of murky water, where he found some people. We said, “O Ⱬul-Qarnain! Either punish them or treat them kindly.”
    Am I right?

    Before I answer that, I want you to be aware of a few things, and I want to explain what you need to properly understand a verse.

    languages are never 1 on 1. Translating a text in a different language always mean more or less distortion of the original load. It never carry's exact the same load.

    My parents are Turkish, I am born and raised in the Netherlands, and now I live in Germany for almost 10 years now.
    I hate to re-watch movies from my youth in German because it is totally different.
    to give you an example:
    I am sure you know the famous scene of Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator saying "Ill be back!!"
    Well in german it is "Ich komme wieder!!"
    Although the translation is pretty accurate, it doesn't give me the same sensation.
    That is why I prefer to watch movies in original language with german or english subtitles, rather than in german revoiced versions.
    one thing you should be aware of. Therefore, if you understand multiple languages, then please read the verse in different languages, or at least multiple versions in the same language. It will give you a wider understanding.

    second, the Quraan is not in chronological order. In order to properly understand a verse, it is not enough to just read the translation. You also have to look up background information like, where and when was this verse translated, what was exactly happening in the world at that moment, and what event does the verse exactly refer to...
    Some verses appear to contradict each other, but if you look more closely, then they refer to different events in time or different situations, (for example, one refers to casual, the other during war)...but having that little background information prevents such mistakes.

    That is a lot of research you have to do in order to better understand the Quraan. But fortunately, all this work has been done for you.
    The translation, explanation and the needed background information of every verse are combined in one collection which we call Tafsir.
    By doing that, a Tafsir also prevents false interpretations of the Quraan.
    There are many different Tafsirs available, but one of the most reliable and generally accepted Tafsir is "Tafsir Ibn Kathir" which is also free available online.

    Having said all that we can now look up what Ibn Kathir has to say about verse 18:86:


    (85. So he followed a way.) (86. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah. And he found near it a people. We said: "O Dhul-Qarnayn! Either you punish them or treat them with kindness.'') (87. He said: "As for him who does wrong, we shall punish him, and then he will be brought back unto his Lord, Who will punish him with a terrible torment (Hell).'') (88. "But as for him who believes and works righteousness, he shall have the best reward, and we shall speak unto him mild words.'')





    HIS TRAVELING AND REACHING THE PLACE WHERE THE SUN SETS (THE WEST)

    ﴿ فَأَتۡبَعَ سَبَبًا ﴾
    (So he followed a way.) Ibn `Abbas said that he followed different routes to achieve what he wanted.


    ﴿ فَأَتۡبَعَ سَبَبًا ﴾
    (So he followed a way.) Mujahid said that he followed different routes, east and west. According to one report narrated from Mujahid, he said:


    ﴿ سَبَبًا ﴾
    (a way) means, "A route through the land.'' Qatadah said, "It means he followed the routes and landmarks of the earth.''


    ﴿ حَتَّىٰٓ إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغۡرِبَ ٱلشَّمۡسِ ﴾
    (Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun,) means, he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun's setting, which is the west of the earth. As for the idea of his reaching the place in the sky where the sun sets, this is something impossible, and the tales told by storytellers that he traveled so far to the west that the sun set behind him are not true at all. Most of these stories come from the myths of the People of the Book and the fabrications and lies of their heretics.


    ﴿ وَجَدَهَا تَغۡرُبُ فِى عَيۡنٍ حَمِئَةٍ۬ ﴾
    (he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah) meaning, he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean. This is something which everyone who goes to the coast can see: it looks as if the sun is setting into the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it is fixed. Hami'ah is, according to one of the two views, derived from the word Hama'ah, which means mud. This is like the Ayah:


    ﴿ إِنِّى خَـٰلِقُۢ بَشَرً۬ا مِّن صَلۡصَـٰلٍ۬ مِّنۡ حَمَإٍ۬ مَّسۡنُونٍ۬ ﴾
    ("I am going to create a man (Adam) from dried clay of altered Hama'h (mud)) (15:28), which means smooth mud, as we have discussed above.


    ﴿ وَوَجَدَ عِندَهَا قَوۡمً۬ا-ۗ ﴾
    (And he found near it a people.) meaning a nation. They mentioned that they were a great nation from among the sons of Adam.


    ﴿ قُلۡنَا يَـٰذَا ٱلۡقَرۡنَيۡنِ إِمَّآ أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّآ أَن تَتَّخِذَ فِيہِمۡ حُسۡنً۬ا ﴾


    As you can read, the sun Appeared to set in a spring of Hami'ah...which is not wrong.

    Did you ask yourself why you still speak about "sunrise" and "sunset" even though in reality the Earth orbits the sun and not the other way around?
    Because it is about perspective.

    According to Einstein, speed and motion is relative. This means without a reference point there is no way to tell whether you are moving or not.
    If you were floating around in void, nothing around you, so you have absolutely no reference point...there is no way you can tell whether you move in a certain direction or not.
    but as soon as you have found a reference point, you can immediately tell that you are moving and even in which direction you are moving.

    So again, speed and motion are relative.
    I am telling this because if you choose to put your reference point in Amsterdam, the whole world, sun, moon, stars, in fact everything will orbit in a very very complicated pattern around Amsterdam...which we also observe exactly that if we are in Amsterdam and we look up.

    This verse has set the reference point to where Dhul-Qarnayn is standing...that is all.

    Edit:
    I want to give another example of this reference point:

    You said
    Because we know now that the sun doesn’t move
    You have said this because you have put the reference point on the sun...so in this model, the sun is stationary and everything else moves around the sun.
    and then Abd-al Latif responded to you stating the sun DOES move, and rather fast...because he chose his reference point in the middle of the galaxy.
    That is a whole different model.

    You are both correct, depending on the reference point you choose.
    Last edited by Ümit; 01-18-2022 at 07:22 AM.
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    Thank you guys for your answers. I have one more for the moment. If the Quran says that I should “judge by the gospel and if I don’t I have any ground to stand on” why would I be told to judge by a corrupted book?
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    format_quote Originally Posted by SeeksOnlyTruth View Post
    Thank you guys for your answers. I have one more for the moment. If the Quran says that I should “judge by the gospel and if I don’t I have any ground to stand on” why would I be told to judge by a corrupted book?
    Please provide the verse numbers when you are talking about a certain verse. That allowes us to better understand what you mean and answer effectively.

    I think you are now talking about verse 5:68. Let us look what Ibn Kathir has to say about verse 5:68:

    (68. Say: "O People of the Scripture! You have nothing till you act according to the Tawrah, the Injil, and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an).'' Verily, the revelation that has come to you from your Lord makes many of them increase in rebellion and disbelief. So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve.) (69. Surely, those who believe, and those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.)





    THERE IS NO SALVATION EXCEPT THROUGH FAITH IN THE QUR'AN

    Allah says: O Muhammad, say,


    ﴿ يَـٰٓأَهۡلَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ لَسۡتُمۡ عَلَىٰ شَىۡءٍ ﴾
    (O People of the Scripture! You have nothing...) meaning no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah and the Injil. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law. Before, we explained Allah's statement,


    ﴿ وَلَيَزِيدَنَّ كَثِيرً۬ا مِّنۡہُم مَّآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ طُغۡيَـٰنً۬ا وَكُفۡرً۬ا-ۖ ﴾
    (Verily, the revelation that has come to you from your Lord makes many of them increase in rebellion and disbelief.)


    ﴿ فَلَا تَأۡسَ عَلَى ٱلۡقَوۡمِ ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ ﴾
    (So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve), Do not be sad or taken aback by their disbelief. Allah said next,


    ﴿ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ ﴾


    We Muslims believe in ALL of Gods prophets. We believe in Jesus pbuh, Moses pbuh, Abraham pbuh, Josef pbuh, David pbuh, Adam pbuh, etc. etc.
    In the same way, we Muslims believe in ALL of Gods books, in original form and language of course...so we believe in the Injil (Gospels) and Thorah.
    Those books are all truth and all of them contain the same message about God being the only one, and almighty and eternal.

    However, the Quraan is the latest version of God's holy books, so that is the only valid book of God nowadays.
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    Ok. I will make sure to start adding the verses thank you
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    What are reputation points on here
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    format_quote Originally Posted by SeeksOnlyTruth View Post
    What are reputation points on here
    They are positive private comments and points that you get for your posts from other members.
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    So far an unanswerable question

    D e a t h

    is the easiest
    of all things after it
    ; ;

    the hardest
    of all things before it
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    Re: So far an unanswerable question

    Thank you.
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