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Islam and democracy

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    Eddy's Avatar
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    Islam and democracy

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    I'm always amazed at the fact that Muslims seem to be alright living under oppression and even dislike democracy.
    Let me define what I mean by "democracy":
    Democracy as I'm using it here means a government elected by the people and that can be changed by the people.
    Democracy doesn't mean to turn into a western culture.
    Wouldn't be alright for Muslims to be able to try the Taliban government (just an example) and if they don't like it in the next period of 5 years then vote for another Muslim party who can govern to the likes of the people.
    Is that anti-Islamic?
    Even the Muslim countries that have tried that later tend to switch into oppressive governments.
    Why?
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    Democracy is too oppressive. A good king is always best.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I'm always amazed at the fact that Muslims seem to be alright living under oppression and even dislike democracy.
    Let me define what I mean by "democracy":
    Democracy as I'm using it here means a government elected by the people and that can be changed by the people.
    Democracy doesn't mean to turn into a western culture.
    Wouldn't be alright for Muslims to be able to try the Taliban government (just an example) and if they don't like it in the next period of 5 years then vote for another Muslim party who can govern to the likes of the people.
    Is that anti-Islamic?
    Even the Muslim countries that have tried that later tend to switch into oppressive governments.
    Why?
    Democracy literally means walking the path the majority wants...the people select the leaders who promisses them things, and if they don't they wont be reselected the next time...which in almost every case means that sooner or later they start to wander off the right path of Islaam.
    It is guided by the desires of the people, instead of Islaam. That is why it is wrong.
    One just ruler who rules by the Quraan is for that reason better. The problem is to find that one just ruler.
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    Re: Islam and democracy



    People should know that democracy is well rooted in first islamic governments (a rightheous khalifa with shura council such as modern days parlaments with prime ministers, and city governors wuth judges and a great adminustration).

    Kingship (hereditary) is not that recommended but there can be righteous kings and wrongdoers dhalimin.

    Worst is despotism against the will od people and opression dhalimin.

    Another question is why to ask such questions at online forums, what should we want and what should we try to change and why.

    There us nothing wrong even to be a prime minister of ancient pharaoh Egypt as prophet Yousuf was or like Muslims in Abesinia Negus rule.

    We should adapt and not spread dissinformation and unlawful activities nor cause oppression upon us.

    If you want authority and Izzah, the greatest Izza is with means if deen and you know that you draw closer to Allah first with fard then with nawafil.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    Democracy literally means walking the path the majority wants...the people select the leaders who promisses them things, and if they don't they wont be reselected the next time...which in almost every case means that sooner or later they start to wander off the right path of Islaam.
    Well there are more than 50 Muslims countries in the world who could lead under strict Shariah if the so wished, but they have all prefered to use a light Shariah or as you said "they have wander off the right path of Islam" on their own.
    So how are any of those governments better than an elected Islamic government who will have the pressure to govern in an Islamic way or get ready to be ousted by the will of the people on the next 5 year period?
    How?
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    One just ruler who rules by the Quraan is for that reason better. The problem is to find that one just ruler.
    You mean that elusive perfect ruler that doesn't seem to exist and probably never will?
    Is that what Muslims are waiting for?
    On a democracy any Muslim country would have a real opportunity to find that perfect Islamic government which would rule by the Quran and the way of Allah.
    I don't see how being stuck with the Taliban or Saudi Arabia is better than Democracy.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    Hi Eddy, I was talking to a high caste Hindoo in India and the subject went to politics. I asked about the government and he said democracy was the worst system for India. His reasons were right because he said that the majority of the population are living in villages and are simple farmers growing rice and vegetables. So they can be easily brainwashed with media propaganda by the politicians. He believed a Raja was best as Indian politicians can be bribed by the West to do their bidding. So in a nutshell India was under the British Raj now it is under the American Raj.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    Democracy literally means walking the path the majority wants...the people select the leaders who promisses them things, and if they don't they wont be reselected the next time...which in almost every case means that sooner or later they start to wander off the right path of Islaam.
    It is guided by the desires of the people, instead of Islaam. That is why it is wrong.
    One just ruler who rules by the Quraan is for that reason better. The problem is to find that one just ruler.
    Islam is a total package you can't just put in the pagan system of democracy. That is heresy!
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Well there are more than 50 Muslims countries in the world who could lead under strict Shariah if the so wished, but they have all prefered to use a light Shariah or as you said "they have wander off the right path of Islam" on their own.
    I agree with you that in practice it looks a little different...But that still does not mean that the ideal is wrong.
    The fact that we are just humans, and that none of the humans is capable of following Islaam in a PERFECT way is a totally different subject.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    So how are any of those governments better than an elected Islamic government who will have the pressure to govern in an Islamic way or get ready to be ousted by the will of the people on the next 5 year period?
    How?
    Because the will of people also tends to wander off from Islaam. There really is only one true reference which is Islaam. Wheter the will of one person or 1 mln people...it doesn't matter...it wanders off sooner or later. That is why.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post

    You mean that elusive perfect ruler that doesn't seem to exist and probably never will?
    Is that what Muslims are waiting for?
    On a democracy any Muslim country would have a real opportunity to find that perfect Islamic government which would rule by the Quran and the way of Allah.
    I don't see how being stuck with the Taliban or Saudi Arabia is better than Democracy.
    I am not saying that the Taliban or Saudi Arabia is better than democracy.

    We are talking about the ideal form which is one just ruler ruling the country by sharia.
    I agree with you that the Taliban or Saudi Arabia is not much of a just ruler.

    That however does not mean that the ideal is therefore wrong.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    I asked (a friend) about the government (in India) and he said democracy was the worst system for India. His reasons were right because he said that the majority of the population are living in villages and are simple farmers growing rice and vegetables.
    On a true democracy every 5 years the people can change their mind and the current government can be changed with a better option. A mistake can only last 5 years as opposed to forever as the case of the Taliban or any other oppressive system.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Islam is a total package you can't just put in the pagan system of democracy. That is heresy!
    Sure Islam can be the total package but which of the more than 50 Muslim countries rules by 100% Shariah? None.
    Why?
    Because Islam doesn't rule a country but the people in charge and if the people are not able to choose who they want to rule then you get oppression and dictatorships.
    Is that what you consider Islamic? (oppression and dictatorships?)
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    I agree with you that in practice it looks a little different...But that still does not mean that the ideal is wrong. The fact that we are just humans, and that none of the humans is capable of following Islam in a PERFECT way is a totally different subject.
    Maybe it's me but I believe that most Muslims would prefer to live under Islam but they would like to choose the Islamic government.
    If Afghans would have the chance to vote today they would never choose the Taliban as their government. Am I correct?
    Probably this would apply to most Muslims in the majority of Muslim countries.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    Because the will of people also tends to wander off from Islam. There really is only one true reference which is Islaam. Wheter the will of one person or 1 mln people...it doesn't matter...it wanders off sooner or later. That is why.
    That has nothing to do with democracy.
    Most Muslims in an Islamic country would choose an Islamic government, if then people wander off from Islam is not the government's fault but their own weakness.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    I am not saying that the Taliban or Saudi Arabia is better than democracy. We are talking about the ideal form which is one just ruler ruling the country by sharia. I agree with you that the Taliban or Saudi Arabia is not much of a just ruler. That however does not mean that the ideal is therefore wrong.
    I still think that the Ideal Shariah is much easier to find by the will of the people (democracy) than by the firepower of extremists who would impose their own interpretation of the scriptures no matter what any of the people think about it.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    Democracy is a pro homosexual pagan system which is totally against Judaism, Christianity and Islam. As an agnostic you may not care. Why push a system Eddy that is totally wrong for the monotheists?
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    The leader should be elected by people with knowledge
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    On a true democracy every 5 years the people can change their mind and the current government can be changed with a better option. A mistake can only last 5 years as opposed to forever as the case of the Taliban or any other oppressive system.
    No thanks to democracy, 5 years of nefarious political manipulation (euphemistically referred to by those such as yourself as something that must be viewed as nothing worse than as mere "mistakes") only to be followed by another 5 years of "mistakes", and another.... Why is it that the globalist one-world-government Jews who own mainstream media obsessively promote "democracy" to the dumb masses? Well, the plain answer to that is that it's a mere smokescreen to make it look like these globalist tyrants are gifting the masses with something special that any "decent-minded, freedom-loving citizen would consider utterly essential" and that "any alternative to democracy is nothing other than oppressive tyranny".

    Plain and simply, democracy is nothing more than mob rule, or as George Bernard Shaw once correctly summed it up: " Democracy is a government of the fools, for the fools, by the fools. And what about when Mark Twain once said "If voting made any difference, they wouldn't let us do it" and "Just because something is popular, doesn't necessarily make it right". The globalist Jews will often foster a primarily two-party competitor system (such as Democrats vs Republicans in the United States). They manipulate the masses to believe there are profound ideological differences between these two vying parties, but in reality any differences between these parties (when there) are in the bigger scheme of things pretty well superficial anyway. At the end of the day, regardless of what party wins an election, it basically makes no difference in hindering globalist Jewish power anyway. The globalist Jews utterly thrive under EITHER Republicans OR Democrats. These plutocratic globalists create the cunning illusion that the masses themselves are important and have the ultimate say in how a country is governed, but, no that is NOT really the case. But in any cases where the globalists are hell-bent on a particular party to get into power, they will often rig elections if they really need to anyway. Democracy is one of the most corrupt forms of government in existence, and this is why the dumb masses are so easily fooled into letting the globalists away with almost anything they want.

    As for your comments on the Taliban, well that is a mere matter of opinion. In MY opinion they are not "oppressive" at all. They are merely upholding and enforcing proper Islamic standards and rules. If someone doesn't like Islam, then LEAVE the Islamic country they feel so "oppressed" in! You feel that authentic unadulterated un-"reformed" Islam is "oppressive", while I in contrast feel that the wokery, democracy, feminism, LGBTQ+, and degenerate liberalism as a whole that I suffer under is also oppressive. But I do have plans to escape Liberal Tyranny as soon as I get enough of my ducks in a row to finally leave. And frankly, because of what I've been able to glean from media reports, my respect for the Taliban has waned in recent years as they have demonstrated a weakening constitution, buckling and compromising to globalist left-wing ideals.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Sure Islam can be the total package but which of the more than 50 Muslim countries rules by 100% Shariah? None
    Why?
    Because Islam doesn't rule a country but the people in charge and if the people are not able to choose who they want to rule then you get oppression and dictatorships.
    The Jewish owned Western media wants you to believe that, but in reality the masses in these so-called "Islamic" countries are NOT primarily behind the adoption of "democracy". Rather, it's more to do with the leaders of these countries being highly corrupt and even criminal. They are disgraceful traitors bribed by globalist $$$$$$$$. Usually they are they just greedy traitors, but sometimes the bribe also comes with a THREAT against not accepting the bribe. Basically the globalists will say "Here are some suitcases of greenbacks, but if you do not instill democracy and accept our generous offer then just remember what happens to any country that defies us! You don't want to be eternally sanctioned, or even worse still, become another conquered nation to add to the list including Germany, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, do you? And DON'T forget what we did to Japan! ACCEPT DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM or DIE!!"
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    A.R.BRahimbaksh's Avatar Limited Member
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I'm always amazed at the fact that Muslims seem to be alright living under oppression and even dislike democracy.
    Let me define what I mean by "democracy":
    Democracy as I'm using it here means a government elected by the people and that can be changed by the people.
    Democracy doesn't mean to turn into a western culture.
    Wouldn't be alright for Muslims to be able to try the Taliban government (just an example) and if they don't like it in the next period of 5 years then vote for another Muslim party who can govern to the likes of the people.
    Is that anti-Islamic?
    Even the Muslim countries that have tried that later tend to switch into oppressive governments.
    Why?
    You are 50%wrong .how?

    Because you are saying about sharia system and democracy but the point is people will like the one who is ruling best and democracy is good but when it follows Islam . Sharia system is obviously better then democracy but when it rules according to Islam .Now a days there is no one in democracy who rules according to Islam if they do then it is good because the main thing is to rule according Islam . Mostly the one who knows about Islam more then more will never comes to politics . But when they come it is great for Muslim as well . Sharia system is great see the history and Quran l hope you know about Hazrat Umar Farooq . Who was he? He was and he is the great ruler in the world . Do you know about Alexander world know is the first man who occupied a 17 lakhs square miles with in 0 years but Hazrat Umar Farooq occupied 22 lakhs square miles with in 10 years as well . Even non Muslim said ,"if there will be another Umar Farooq then Islam will be religion of world ". He ruled according to Islam and everybody likes him. Why ? He also ruled according to Sharia system .don't say about system say about ruler and government. And you had said about Taliban . Taliban are not ruling fully according to Islam they are making Islam tough , even Islam is a soft religion if you want to know about rules and regulation of Islam then see the history and Quran not Muslims because Muslims are not perfect but Islam is perfect . Why does Muslims dislike democracy ? Because we are human being as well and it is in nature of human that they always believe on whatever they see or hear . They never want to know the real thing and they are always dependent mostly but the one who see everything but logic or his / her point of view . So that's why please don't say about system both of them are good when they are real one or according to Islam . Don't judge a book by its cover. I will say it logically . For example you have buy a vehicle and you want to know about it then you will manage a driver but he / she is not a good driver . Will you judge a car with his driving that ,how is car . Is it fast or slow ? No way you will see the car not the driver .so please see the ruler not system but if it is based on Islam
    Jazakillah
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    A.R.BRahimbaksh's Avatar Limited Member
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    Sorry for mistakes it is *10* not "0”
    Know *him *
    *With logic * not " but logic "
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Democracy is a pro homosexual pagan system which is totally against Judaism, Christianity and Islam. As an agnostic you may not care. Why push a system Eddy that is totally wrong for the monotheists?
    Ok, let's break it down. "Democracy is a pro homosexual pagan system" What? Are you saying that "Democracy" favors homosexuality?
    I cannot take you seriously.
    You're saying that giving the people of a country the option to choose who should represent them somehow favors the people who have the preference to couple with people of the same gender?
    Wow, where did you get? Quran, Hadith or just your own disturbed head?

    format_quote Originally Posted by mistersun View Post
    The leader should be elected by people with knowledge
    I like that idea but how do you pick the knowledgeable people and who should be in charge of selecting these knowledgeable people?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    No thanks to democracy, 5 years of nefarious political manipulation (euphemistically referred to by those such as yourself as something that must be viewed as nothing worse than as mere "mistakes") only to be followed by another 5 years of "mistakes", and another.... Why is it that the globalist one-world-government Jews who own mainstream media obsessively promote "democracy" to the dumb masses? Well, the plain answer to that is that it's a mere smokescreen to make it look like these globalist tyrants are gifting the masses with something special that any "decent-minded, freedom-loving citizen would consider utterly essential" and that "any alternative to democracy is nothing other than oppressive tyranny".
    You didn't understand my point.
    I'm using democracy (as government picked by the majority of the population).
    If we are in an Islamic country:
    Do you believe the Islamic government chosen by the majority of Muslims would be:
    format_quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    5 years of nefarious political manipulation (euphemistically referred to by those such as yourself as something that must be viewed as nothing worse than as mere "mistakes") only to be followed by another 5 years of "mistakes",
    You are totally confused or you don't trust any of your Muslim brothers.
    Are you saying that Muslims are incapable of choosing their own government which would rule by Shariah?
    You keep associating "Democracy" with "western or Jewish governments".
    Democracy is not a religion nor a western only political system but the closest to a freely elected government by the majority of the population.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    As for your comments on the Taliban, well that is a mere matter of opinion. In MY opinion they are not "oppressive" at all. They are merely upholding and enforcing proper Islamic standards and rules. If someone doesn't like Islam, then LEAVE the Islamic country they feel so "oppressed" in!
    I am tired of listening to stories of women trying to escape countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan and somehow not being allowed to do so and very often being captured and sent to jail to disappear from the face of earth.
    You don't call it oppression when a woman is detained in an airport because apparently was wearing loose clothes and for that reason was beaten to death?
    You're right we don't have the same view of what oppression looks like.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Ok, let's break it down. "Democracy is a pro homosexual pagan system" What? Are you saying that "Democracy" favors homosexuality?
    I cannot take you seriously.
    You're saying that giving the people of a country the option to choose who should represent them somehow favors the people who have the preference to couple with people of the same gender?
    Wow, where did you get? Quran, Hadith or just your own disturbed head?
    So it's just mere coincidence that all Western democratic countries happen to be pro-homosexual? I know of no democratic country that is anti-homosexual! All democratic ZOG condones and/or promotes "LGBTQ+" as well as other filthy degenerate activities and behaviours such as miscegenation (race genocide), feminism, pop music, wife - swapping, etc.

    You keep on going on about "the people" being able to change a government every five years if they don't like the previous government, but you don't need democracy to oust a government quickly. A coup or revolution can see a government kicked out from only a WEEK of being in power, not a long drawn out period of FIVE YEARS!

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Are you saying that Muslims are incapable of choosing their own government which would rule by Shariah?
    You keep associating "Democracy" with "western or Jewish governments".
    Democracy is not a religion nor a western only political system but the closest to a freely elected government by the majority of the population.You didn't understand my point.
    I'm using democracy (as government picked by the majority of the population).
    Democracy is a FOREIGN (Western) mentality. It is alien not only to Islam but to Asian culture in general. It was a system first conceived by the ancient Greeks, but even they soon realized that it was a failed system, hence why they put the sledge hammer to it. Modern democracy as we know it today is an unjust mob rule system which is also so easily corrupted by bribes. Yes, I associate democracy with Judeo-Western governments because not only does the West fanatically applaud democracy, but you CAN'T deny that they incessantly arm-twist non Western countries to adopt it too. That ALONE is a good enough reason for non Western countries to DEFY democracy! Furthermore, most if not all non Western countries that kowtow to Western pressure to adopt democracy are corrupt and accept foreign bribes, and yes I say Jews BECAUSE Jews rule over the Western world and have enormous snowballing sums of $$$$$$$$ which they use to bribe non Western democracies to enact laws and policies they want.


    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    I am tired of listening to stories of women trying to escape countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan and somehow not being allowed to do so and very often being captured and sent to jail to disappear from the face of earth.
    Western (Jewish) busybody media incessantly moans and whines about "women's rights" in these far flung nations, but hey you don't have to keep watching Jew run media right? There IS an OFF switch! Furthermore, I'm not a globalist, I only care about what goes on in MY country, therefore I couldn't give a hoot about "all da oppressed wimmin" in far flung parts of the planet! NOT my business and NOT my concern! PERIOD!

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    You don't call it oppression when a woman is detained in an airport because apparently was wearing loose clothes and for that reason was beaten to death?
    You're right we don't have the same view of what oppression looks like.
    As I said, frankly I just DON'T CARE about what foreign races get up to, none of my business, But no, I wouldn't call that "oppression" anyway, it is merely enforcing the laws of the land. Give these badly behaved rebellious Westernized females an inch and they will take a foot and turn into uppity feminists and stomp all over their males before they know it. You see, females are able to smell weak effeminate beta-males who are too frightened and cowardly to discipline them. They need guidance (and sometimes discipline for the extremely stubborn and pugnacious), but when they refuse to accept being steered back in the right direction, then sometimes the death penalty for these obnoxious rejects IS warranted.

    Oddly, in spite of the West being full of degeneracy, it too in its hypocrisy nonetheless has it's own strict dress code anyway. You might not be executed for walking the streets naked but you WILL be carted off to PRISON! Another civilization might regard THESE standards as oppressive too! Ever thought about that? It's just a matter of where the line is drawn, and who is to decide where it is drawn? Certainly no self-righteous arrogant meddling foreign power should have that say, that's for sure! Different strokes for different folks!
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  21. #17
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    Democracy is from Greece and Republics are, from Rome.
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    Re: Islam and democracy

    Democracy can be corrupted or used by the people.
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    Post Re: Islam and democracy

    Democracy is used to, promote the will of the people at least in theory.
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