Morality in western society

format_quote Originally Posted by Christian_dove

Norwegian, we don't have wal mart, thank God. Americans have the gouvernment and the welfare system that they deserve... Norway is the world's best place to live... Oil revenues and a focus on social welfare politics have placed Norway at the top of the United Nations' so-called Human Development Index 4 years in a row.

OK Sir---You live in Norway....Than how can you make these comments about the usa, not even living here....and the "Wal Mart" things, was a figure of speech .........actually its anywhere..even the streets--"Who to blame" , possible childrens service, who can now say that a parent can't correct a child--and than if they try, they go to jail....so this leaves the kids with "freedom'. (don't believe? Go and read up on this.)..
And I am real happy for you that this great state of Norway is so high up . sounds like a wonderful place to live..
One question?? whats the name of this thread
peace to you Dove...

format_quote Originally Posted by bezimany 071

I was born and raised in Sarajevo, Bosnia.......that is in Eastern Europe......right above the Italy for those who have no clue.....anyhow, as far as woman having sex before marriage, she is a talk of the town and not very nice talk either.....I'm not saying its wrong or right, but its the truth.....a guy who has sex out of wedlock is a mans man.....that’s not only in Bosnia but in other European countries as well

And of course the entire Middle East and probably the entire world. Except that if anything it is more extreme in the Middle East. You have a point here?

with exception of USA where it is normal for children to give birth to children......good example is North Carolina, which has the biggest recorded number in the world....the world.....of teenage single mothers whose job occupation is a stripper

It is normal? From Planned Parenthood of America: "Although the rate of teenage pregnancy in the United States has been declining, it remains the highest in the developed world. Approximately 97 per 1,000 women aged 15–19 — one million American teenagers — become pregnant each year. The majority of these pregnancies — 78 percent — are unintended (AGI, 1999a)."

Clearly it is not normal. Notice that it says America has the highest rate in the Developed world. I am sure that America has more teenage single mothers who are also strippers, but in the Third World, where child marriage is normal, do you think there are more teenage mothers?

......I was stationed in Camp Lejeune with US Marine Corps, and I have seen the way people live in that area....

Although the large numbers of single young male soldiers might make the area less than representative of America as a whole. You think?

as far as the cartoons go, you might say its freedom of speech.....everyone should have the right to express their opinion and state their belief, I agree......however, freedom to disrespect me, spit on me, and belittle my belief, my religion and everything that is dear to my heart can only be seen as oppression

Who is disrespecting you? Who has spat on you? You would not have known if those Danish Muslim had not forced the cartoons to your attention. Why not blame them?

.....see its not the fact that those cartoon artists disrespected us Muslims, its the fact that they choose to do it at the time of war in Iraq......

And how does this make it better or worse? Not that anyone is at war in Iraq by the way.

Danish army that was stationed in Bosnia with united nations during 92-95 whose job were to act as peace keepers allowed and watched the massacre of Muslim men and boys in the city of Srebrenica, and haven’t done anything to prevent it, they actually left derogatory graffiti on the walls of the buildings that they were stationed in......so the only thing they are expressing is not freedom of speech, its the freedom of hate my friend...I know I was there and I still know because I am a refugee in USA....

I am sorry but what is your source for Danish soldiers being in Srebrenica? I thought it was only Dutch soldiers?

As for doing nothing, that is not fair. They were outnumbered by Serbs and did not choose to die there, but they did what they could. They tried to evacuate Bosnians, except the Bosnian government objected.

and as far as numbers go......should I doubt the numbers of Jews killed in holocaust?......or would that be considered a black number as well......or should I be labeled as anti Semite or racist or terrorist because I dared to say this

It depends on what grounds you deny the numbers killed in the Holocaust. If you do so out of hate it is one thing, if you have evidence it is another.

......oh wait.....I already bear those nicknames, because people in Europe and in USA wipe their butts with Muslim culture and belief, and we let them.....

Exactly how do the people of Europe and America do anything other than respect Muslim culture and belief, encourage Muslim culture and belief etc etc etc?

we let them because we are not the ones who will judge them, we forgive them everything instead, but we also fight, because my brother, you can push a man over the edge only for so long before he starts pushing back demanding his human rights..

The Copts suggest that is not the case.

....my sister and I were persecuted for our belief, my mother was shot by a sniper (she survived mashaallah), my cousins and uncles were in concentration camps......all this terror and crime against Muslims was supported by non Muslims from Europe and USA

That is an outrageous slur and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up. The Europeans supported the break-up of Yugoslavia. They opposed the Serb attempts to keep it together and then to take as much as possible from the Croats, Bosnians and Albanians. You can see the Serbs are the big losers from the Civil Wars. The West armed the Croats and Bosnian Muslims. They supported them diplomatically in the UN and elsewhere. This is simply pure paranoia.

.....I know I been there......so tell me this.....what is the reason and where is the justification to pick on us......what have we done to you?.....

That whole sack of Constantinople thing aside?

morality???...please!!!!.....turn on the TV and 2/3 of the viewing time is commercials where the products wont sell if you don’t strip a woman half naked while she is holding a miller light bottle....the movie wont make millions if an actor wont have a sex scene with a woman who has breast implants.....and they dare to say that our women are oppressed and have no rights?

Yes we dare. Because in America you can choose to wear the hijab or not. You can choose to appear half naked on TV or not. No one is making you do either. That is real freedom.

......my mother never wore hijab in her life, but she is on that prayer rug 5 times a day, so that right there shows you that she chose not to wear it...those women who do choose to wear hijab do so for Allah, not for me or you, its not the fashion statement homie.....

She chose not to wear it - because she did not live in a Muslim country but in Yugoslavia - a communist one. The West provides for people to wear it (well most of the time) and to not wear it. Unlike Saudi Arabia.

you say that a woman who is 17 yrs old with a child and no husband doesn’t have a problem?......well if that’s what you believe and if that’s what she believes than that’s double the problem right there.

I think that is the problem. The question is what to do about it. Stoning is probably not rhe right answer.

.....a kid needs a father in his life......kid should be dressed in clean clothes and have a healthy meal to eat, do you seriously think that a mother who is 17 and on welfare could afford this for her child?.

Yes I do actually. But affording it is one thing. Being able to do it is another.

My First Quote...i was making point to Smoke
Second Quote.....i do not think it is normal, once again i was making a point to Smoke who believes it is normal
Third Quote.....you are correct, military does have an influence in certain areas.....but why isnt there the same problem in pentagon?..because there are more officers than enlisted?......what about Quantico Virgina and 8th Marines in Washington DC?
Fourth Quote those cartoons were posted on buletin board in city bank in New York....one of the places outside of Europe.....
5th......maybe noone from the forum is at the war with Iraq, and i wasnt accusing anyone from the forum anyhow, but the fact is why wasnt this done before, or better yet why was it done period......would you call it freedom of speech if i drew nazi swastikas and posted them in jewish neighborhoods?.....or if i drew pictures of burning crosses and balck people hanging off of tree branches, and posted them everywhere......its exactly the same my friend
6thimma use palestine for example here......they can be evacuated too, but why when that is their home?.....i guess you have to experience it to make sense out of it.......outnumbered yes.....but it only took NATO 2 days to bomb Serbia together with Chinese embassy...with few planes.....serbia had many planes as well...matter of fact the majority of Yugo Army was in their hands they could have retaliated, but they didnt......in another words, Serbs were doing everyone else a favor by exterminating Muslims......they were doing the dirty work and politicians stood on a side line with the front row tickets....either way i brought it up to prove a point, not to change the subject
7th once again i was trying to drive a point home to smok with that question,
8thname few ways european union respects bosnia and encourages our existance......when they denied out flag which we fought under, and when they deny our language,....i speak bosnian, serbs speak serbian and croatians speak croatian.....but they want to say that bosnian language is called serbo-croatian....which means the splitting of bosnia between non muslims is not done yet, and it will continue eventualy.....yes we can understand each other pretty much, but i also understand russian, and ukranian, all these languages are conected, all of em are slavic languages, so why arent we allowed to have our own when everyone else gets to have their own?......and in america....spying on mosques and setting up microphones and bugging our phones to listen to our conversations while we are in the mosque is respectfull?.....wow what manners!
9thcopts are not the only ones, im sure other people object it too, to each his own opinion
10thbosnia was never armed by west.......our weapons came from Osama bin Laden.....and other underground sources.....yes Osama.......the inherent right to self defense is preeminent under international law and cannot be modified by the politics of appeasement or be abridged by actions of the United Nations Security Council....my father was on the front....in his squad were 13 men with 6 weapons......few riffles and pistols.......west never gave us weapons, west media might have said that so you believe it.....but no, we never recieved weapons or ammo from west or europe......i know what im talking about.....been there
11th after constantinople how many rape victims did muslims leave?.....how many tortured prisoners?....in fact if anyone ever wanted to practice what ever religion under Islamic Empire at that time he/she was allowed to....noone was persecuted for their belief......one thing is true though.....non muslim payed higher taxes, but they were not killed for no reason other than combat....
12thslide back up and read what i wrote about my mother.....she never wore hijab, cause she didnt want to.....only when she prays....egypt....its the same thing.....some arab countires do live stricter than others, but it doesnt mean that there are no freedoms, just because you dont understand certain group of people they are automatically labeled backwards people, stone age people, labeled uneducated and oppressed....when in states an actress doesnt need any acting skills as long as she has big boobs.....that expolitation friend.....not freedom.....and i wasnt talking about freedom...its obvious that you can get away with murder in america.....i was talking about morals
13ththere were muslim eomen who wore hijab before the war......my grand mother wore it.......my gread grandfatehrs were imams......yes religion was not preffered in comunist yugoslavia....but yugoslavia was not russia or china.......it was tito's playground and during his dictatorship we did live in peace because he allowed certain things to happen......while he dissalowed many others.......and once again.....i lived there, i wouldnt be making stuff up to prove my point, i have no satisfaction in wasting my time on making up ideas and presenting them as facts.....
14thi never said that we should stone anyone......i know we dont do it where im from, i remember that one incident in africa that was on news few yrs back...that was sad.....i dont agree with that either.....that deals more with governments law, not Islam
15thyou are right.....kids are raised like that all the time....but it would be better if kids were raised and educated to wait to have sex before they get married, it would prevent teenage pregnancy, and the children would be raised by educated mature parents, not teenage higschool drop outs with GED, and later in life they wouldnt share a class with their mom and dad in college.....


i noticed i made lot of mistakes as i was typing this....lot of words spelled incorectly...i appologize for this

format_quote Originally Posted by bezimany 071

Third Quote.....you are correct, military does have an influence in certain areas.....but why isnt there the same problem in pentagon?..because there are more officers than enlisted?......

Probably. Officers are more likely to be married and be older.

what about Quantico Virgina and 8th Marines in Washington DC?

I would think there are problems wherever soldiers are stationed in large numbers.

Fourth Quote those cartoons were posted on buletin board in city bank in New York....one of the places outside of Europe.....

Still wouldn't have come to your attention if the Mullahs had not taken them out of Denmark - when were they posted?

5th......maybe noone from the forum is at the war with Iraq, and i wasnt accusing anyone from the forum anyhow, but the fact is why wasnt this done before, or better yet why was it done period......would you call it freedom of speech if i drew nazi swastikas and posted them in jewish neighborhoods?.....or if i drew pictures of burning crosses and balck people hanging off of tree branches, and posted them everywhere......its exactly the same my friend

Yes I would call that freedom of speech and would defend your right to do it.

6thimma use palestine for example here......they can be evacuated too, but why when that is their home?

I agree the treatment of the Palestinians was and is outrageous.

.....i guess you have to experience it to make sense out of it.......outnumbered yes.....but it only took NATO 2 days to bomb Serbia together with Chinese embassy...with few planes.....serbia had many planes as well...matter of fact the majority of Yugo Army was in their hands they could have retaliated, but they didnt......in another words, Serbs were doing everyone else a favor by exterminating Muslims......they were doing the dirty work and politicians stood on a side line with the front row tickets....either way i brought it up to prove a point, not to change the subject

Umm, NATO hardly flew at all in Bosnia, because the Serbians were not there officially. They shot down some planes once I think. But the air campaign over Serbia last a lot longer than two days

NATO's bombing campaign lasted from March 24 to June 10, 1999, involving up to 1,000 aircraft operating mainly from bases in Italy and aircraft carriers stationed in the Adriatic. Tomahawk cruise missiles were also extensively used, fired from aircraft, ships and submarines. The United States was, inevitably, the dominant member of the coalition against Serbia, although all of the NATO members were involved to some degree — even Greece, despite publicly opposing the war. Over the ten weeks of the conflict, NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions.

They did not retaliate because they were hiding from the NATO planes.

The European Union and the Americans were not interested in exterminating Muslims and went to a great deal of trouble to protect them - this is why the Serbs were the big losers. They created the Croat-Bosnian Federation which saved the Muslims from being divided between Serbia and Croatia. Your paranoia is unhealthy.

8thname few ways european union respects bosnia and encourages our existance......when they denied out flag which we fought under, and when they deny our language,....i speak bosnian, serbs speak serbian and croatians speak croatian.....but they want to say that bosnian language is called serbo-croatian....which means the splitting of bosnia between non muslims is not done yet, and it will continue eventualy.....yes we can understand each other pretty much, but i also understand russian, and ukranian, all these languages are conected, all of em are slavic languages, so why arent we allowed to have our own when everyone else gets to have their own?......and in america....spying on mosques and setting up microphones and bugging our phones to listen to our conversations while we are in the mosque is respectfull?.....wow what manners!

It does not look as if Bosnia's flag has been "denied" to me. What makes you think that? Serbo-Croatian is the common language of the Serbs and the Croats. The Muslim Bosnians are just converts from one or other community. It is not a separate language and it never has been. What grounds are there for claiming it is? It means no such thing. The King and Tito both called the language Serbo-Croatian. All of them are Slavic languages, but they are different (mildly so in the case of Belorussian and Russian). Serbo-Croat is the same language. Spying on you? Paranoia again. You're in America. They have a right to find out who is planing terrorism in America.

10thbosnia was never armed by west.......our weapons came from Osama bin Laden.....and other underground sources.....yes Osama.......

This is delusional. Where did the Bosnians get the money? Look at the Croatian Army - where do you buy German-made 105 mm artillery pieces?

the inherent right to self defense is preeminent under international law and cannot be modified by the politics of appeasement or be abridged by actions of the United Nations Security Council.

But that only applies to countries. Bosnia was part of Yugoslavia. Who recognised it as a country first?

...my father was on the front....in his squad were 13 men with 6 weapons......few riffles and pistols.......west never gave us weapons, west media might have said that so you believe it.....but no, we never recieved weapons or ammo from west or europe......i know what im talking about.....been there

No you do not. The West did. Bosnia exists because of the West.

11th after constantinople how many rape victims did muslims leave?.

Tens of thousands. The Turks and the Tartars raided Russia every year, mostly for young women, and took 100,000 in a good year.

They raped and pillaged the city for three whole days.

....how many tortured prisoners?....in fact if anyone ever wanted to practice what ever religion under Islamic Empire at that time he/she was allowed to....noone was persecuted for their belief.

Well that is not true. Look at the Shia.

.....one thing is true though.....non muslim payed higher taxes, but they were not killed for no reason other than combat....

Tell that to the Armenians. The Americans treat their Muslims better but I don't hear them getting any praise.

12thslide back up and read what i wrote about my mother.....she never wore hijab, cause she didnt want to.....only when she prays.

Sure. Because she lives in the West and not a Muslim country.

...egypt....its the same thing.....some arab countires do live stricter than others, but it doesnt mean that there are no freedoms, just because you dont understand certain group of people they are automatically labeled backwards people, stone age people, labeled uneducated and oppressed..

Where did I do that?

..when in states an actress doesnt need any acting skills as long as she has big boobs.....that expolitation friend.....not freedom.....and i wasnt talking about freedom...its obvious that you can get away with murder in america.....i was talking about morals

You can get away with murder anywhere. It is not oppression if they want to do it.

14thi never said that we should stone anyone......i know we dont do it where im from, i remember that one incident in africa that was on news few yrs back...that was sad.....i dont agree with that either.....that deals more with governments law, not Islam

Despite the clear calls in the hadith for women to be stoned? Do you think they are not Islamic?

format_quote Originally Posted by bezimany 071

elisted guys get married as much and even faster than officers.

They are still younger and, besides, there are a lot more of them.

the point about the the cartoon is that cartoons targeted muslims....and as right to freedom of speach , we spoke back.....the same way some activists spoke back and protested the war in iraq......yes everyone has freedom of speach to offend anyone else.....but this topic dealt with morals, not freedom of speech....whats moral about disrespecting someone else?

The cartoons high-lighted the problems Muslims have accepting basic but important Western values (and so by the way probably helped the Far Right oppose any more immigration). In the West you have the right to free speech. Of course in Islamic law no one does, and non-Muslims even less than Muslims.

I have consistently said, it is wrong to insult someone's religion. But it is not and should not be illegal.

Umm, i never said that NATO flew over Bosnia....and if serbians were not there officialy who was killing innocent children and women with snipers from the hills?.

Bosnians of Serbian origins. Besides "officially" is one thing and "really" is another.

we were protected by europe and west, after 3 years of ethnic clensing .... after holocaust, the world swore not the let that happened again.....it still took 3 years to stop it.....its harder to help right away than after the mass damage is done.

Everyone went in for ethnic cleansing. It was, and is, hard to work out who the bad people were. It took time for the Serbs to be shown to be the worst although everyone was pretty bad. What else could be done? The West does not, on the whole, interfere in other countries unless pushed to. Why should they have interfered in Bosnia any more than in Afghanistan?

..look at katrina.....media doesnt even talk about it anymore, destruction of such magnitude could have been prevented, yet it was neglected.....president doesnt care about his own people, let alone some other folk in different country....

That is an absurd claim.

bosnian flag was denied, since union and west said that bosnian muslims fought under that flag......but in fact under the flag that we fought under were muslims christians and catholics......muslims were majority tho...

Describe the Bosnian flag for me. Does it look like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina?

Who said that it was "denied", whatever that means, because Muslims fought under that flag? As it happens it is not the place of the West ot decide what flag Bosnia ought to have and so they do not.

and as far as language goes.....it is not the same....i speak it, and i know the difference.....serbs even have different alpahabet with letters that we never use.

A different alphabet. The Serbs are Orthodox and so use a Cyrillic alphabet like the Russians and Greeks. The Croats are Catholics and so use a Latin one like the Italians and Austrians (and the other Western Europeans). I assume that the Bosnians used to use an Arabic one but now use a Latin one because the Turks do. But it is still the same language. Can you understand what Milosevic says?

...yes they have the right to know and spy to find terrorists.....so why dont they spy in churches.....Timothy McVeigh ( i might have misspelled his last name) made an act of terror by blowing up oklahoma building, but they dont spy on regular american folk.......there is militia in flin michigan, they dont mess with them

Actually they do. They do keep an eye on militia especially after the Timothy McVeigh incident. But there is no need really. The militia movement died away because of the bombing and has never recovered - Americans have some shame after all. Why spy in Churches? Where are the Christian terror groups? They spy on the Communists, the KKK, the other fringe radicals to some extent. Why not spy on those people that are dangerous?

bosna was recognized as a country on 1 march 1992.......so yesterday was our independence day...yes used to be part of yugo.....just like croatia and macedonia and other countries who got their independence as well
bosna exists because Allah wills for it to exist we fought with sticks and rocks ....justlike palestinians throw rocks at the tanks......it doesnt exist because of the west......

From Wikipedia agan

The Bosnian-Herzegovinian declaration of sovereignty in October of 1991 was followed by a referendum for independence from Yugoslavia in February 1992 boycotted by the Bosnian Serbs.

Bosnian Serbs responded shortly thereafter with armed attacks on Bosnian-Herzegovinian Croats and Bosniaks aimed at partitioning the republic along ethnic lines and joining Serb-held areas. The UNPROFOR (UN Protection Force) was deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina in mid-1992. 1992 and 1993 saw the greatest bloodshed in Europe after 1945. Following the peace agreement proposal by Lord Owen in 1993, which practically intended to divide the country into three ethnically pure parts, an armed conflict developed between Bosniak and Croat units in a virtual territorial grab. It was later established that Croat military actions were directly supported by the government of Croatia which made this also an international conflict [2]. At that time about 70% of the country was in Serb control, and the rest was controlled by Bosniaks and Croats.

In March 1994, Bosniaks and Croats reduced the number of warring factions from three to two by signing an agreement creating a joint Bosniak-Croat Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Each nation reported many casualties in the three-sided conflict, in which the Bosniaks reported the highest number of deaths and casualties. However, the only case officially ruled by the U.N. Hague tribunal as genocide was the Srebrenica massacre of 1995. At the end of the war approximately 102,000 people had been killed according to the ICTY [3] and more than 2 million people fled their homes (including over 1 million to neighboring nations and the west).

On November 21, 1995, in Dayton, Ohio, presidents of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Alija Izetbegović), Croatia (Franjo Tuđman), and Serbia (Slobodan Milošević) signed a peace agreement that brought a halt to the three years of war in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (the final agreement was signed in Paris on 14 December 1995). The Dayton Agreement succeeded in ending the bloodshed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it institutionalized the division between the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Muslim and Croat entity - Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina (51% of the territory), and the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Serb entity - Republika Srpska (49%). Inter-Entity Boundary Line delineates the administrative division of the two Entities.

The enforcement of the implementation of the Dayton Agreement was through a UN mandate using various multinational forces: NATO-led IFOR (Implementation Force), which transitioned to the SFOR (Stabilisation Force) the next year, which in turn transitioned to the EU-led EUFOR at end of 2004. The civil administration of Bosnia and Herzegovina is headed by the High Representative of the international community.

Recognised by who? Personally I think if Bosnians, Croats and Serbs cannot live together in peace in Yugoslavia there is no point forcing them to live together in Bosnia and so partition is inevitable. But no matter.

Shia are muslim too.....noone is denying them their pracitce

Plenty of people deny that they are Muslims - someone did here the other day before the Mods told him off - and their practices are denied pretty much everywhere in the Islamic world. Saudi Arabia for instance.

how exactly are muslim treated better in US, sice there is contant sterotype and racial profiln on television chanles, since every bomb that goes off is claimed to be muslims fault, since they spy on us on daily basis nd still cant stop the terror.....obviously theyre barking up the wrong tree...u watch too much televison

Muslims are queing to get in and few are leaving. Clearly they don't object to this sort of treatment and how do you think Muslims are treated by Muslims?

Most bombs are the fault of Muslims. How many Buddhist terrorists do you know?

my mom lives in US since 1996......she never wore hijab, other than mosque, or when she prays....my grandmothers wore it back home even during Titos dictatorship.....i still dont see why youre trying to prove me wrong here....in egypt for example women dont have to wear hijab unless they want to....its not west and they still have that freedom to choose.....

Egypt does not yet have an Islamic government and what they do have is a constant social pressure to cover up. But Islam will come to Egypt and then they will have to. Do you think that would be a good thing?

read it over again.....i am driving a point across about morals....since this is the topic

Then call it immoral, don't call it oppression.

.....i havent come across hadith that said anything about woman getting stoned....if you can send it to me i would appreciate it, and than we could perhaps start a new topic

I really like this hadith (because of the historical information it contains) so I will quote it in its entirity even though most of it is not relevant.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Auf. While I was in his house at Mina, and he was with 'Umar bin Al-Khattab during 'Umar's last Hajj, Abdur-Rahman came to me and said, "Would that you had seen the man who came today to the Chief of the Believers ('Umar), saying, 'O Chief of the Believers! What do you think about so-and-so who says, 'If 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person, as by Allah, the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr was nothing but a prompt sudden action which got established afterwards.' 'Umar became angry and then said, 'Allah willing, I will stand before the people tonight and warn them against those people who want to deprive the others of their rights (the question of rulership)."

'Abdur-Rahman said, "I said, 'O Chief of the believers! Do not do that, for the season of Hajj gathers the riff-raff and the rubble, and it will be they who will gather around you when you stand to address the people. And I am afraid that you will get up and say something, and some people will spread your statement and may not say what you have actually said and may not understand its meaning, and may interpret it incorrectly, so you should wait till you reach Medina, as it is the place of emigration and the place of Prophet's Traditions, and there you can come in touch with the learned and noble people, and tell them your ideas with confidence; and the learned people will understand your statement and put it in its proper place.' On that, 'Umar said, 'By Allah! Allah willing, I will do this in the first speech I will deliver before the people in Medina."

Ibn Abbas added: We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa'id bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was touching his knee, and after a short while 'Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him coming towards us, I said to Said bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail "Today 'Umar will say such a thing as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Said denied my statement with astonishment and said, "What thing do you expect 'Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.' (O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.

And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa'da. 'Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr. I said to Abu Bakr, 'Let's go to these Ansari brothers of ours.' So we set out seeking them, and when we approached them, two pious men of theirs met us and informed us of the final decision of the Ansar, and said, 'O group of Muhajirin (emigrants) ! Where are you going?' We replied, 'We are going to these Ansari brothers of ours.' They said to us, 'You shouldn't go near them. Carry out whatever we have already decided.' I said, 'By Allah, we will go to them.' And so we proceeded until we reached them at the shed of Bani Sa'da. Behold! There was a man sitting amongst them and wrapped in something. I asked, 'Who is that man?' They said, 'He is Sa'd bin 'Ubada.' I asked, 'What is wrong with him?' They said, 'He is sick.' After we sat for a while, the Ansar's speaker said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and praising Allah as He deserved, he added, 'To proceed, we are Allah's Ansar (helpers) and the majority of the Muslim army, while you, the emigrants, are a small group and some people among you came with the intention of preventing us from practicing this matter (of caliphate) and depriving us of it.'

When the speaker had finished, I intended to speak as I had prepared a speech which I liked and which I wanted to deliver in the presence of Abu Bakr, and I used to avoid provoking him. So, when I wanted to speak, Abu Bakr said, 'Wait a while.' I disliked to make him angry. So Abu Bakr himself gave a speech, and he was wiser and more patient than I. By Allah, he never missed a sentence that I liked in my own prepared speech, but he said the like of it or better than it spontaneously. After a pause he said, 'O Ansar! You deserve all (the qualities that you have attributed to yourselves, but this question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish as they are the best of the Arabs as regards descent and home, and I am pleased to suggest that you choose either of these two men, so take the oath of allegiance to either of them as you wish. And then Abu Bakr held my hand and Abu Ubada bin Abdullah's hand who was sitting amongst us. I hated nothing of what he had said except that proposal, for by Allah, I would rather have my neck chopped off as expiator for a sin than become the ruler of a nation, one of whose members is Abu Bakr, unless at the time of my death my own-self suggests something I don't feel at present.'

And then one of the Ansar said, 'I am the pillar on which the camel with a skin disease (eczema) rubs itself to satisfy the itching (i.e., I am a noble), and I am as a high class palm tree! O Quraish. There should be one ruler from us and one from you.'

Then there was a hue and cry among the gathering and their voices rose so that I was afraid there might be great disagreement, so I said, 'O Abu Bakr! Hold your hand out.' He held his hand out and I pledged allegiance to him, and then all the emigrants gave the Pledge of allegiance and so did the Ansar afterwards. And so we became victorious over Sa'd bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' Umar added, "By Allah, apart from the great tragedy that had happened to us (i.e. the death of the Prophet), there was no greater problem than the allegiance pledged to Abu Bakr because we were afraid that if we left the people, they might give the Pledge of allegiance after us to one of their men, in which case we would have given them our consent for something against our real wish, or would have opposed them and caused great trouble. So if any person gives the Pledge of allegiance to somebody (to become a Caliph) without consulting the other Muslims, then the one he has selected should not be granted allegiance, lest both of them should be killed."

You may have a different opinion about what that says compared to me. Not that anyone is going to care about my opinion. But what do you think it says?

format_quote Originally Posted by bezimany 071

i dont have time to write back and reply to everything you listed above, because having a discussion with you is like trying to prove a point to a drunk person.....i will be honest, half way through i stopped reading, what is the point of our conversation when youre only purpose is to deliberately prove me wrong just for the sake of doing so.....

There is no pleasure in that. Any more than there is in kicking puppies. No, there is a purpose here. You are blaming me for all that is evil in the world, like most people around here, and I of course find that a little insulting. The problems of Bosnia are not my fault and if you blame me I will defend myself.

for example, i mean if bosnian independence was not when i said it was, than why did every bosnian celebrate it?.....why did our imam today in our mosque while giving khutba before jummah mention our independence day?......im sorry brother but we are not the ones who are delirious and delusional here.....

I did not dispute your date for Bosnian Independence. Read what I wrote more carefully.

i will post one thing however, our real flag...the one that is denied......the link you posted is the one we have right now, cause every independent country must have one.....so the one you posted is what european union said we should have......it even resembles EU........our flag under which we fought is this

That is indeed an odd looking flag for a group of Muslims. But I think I understand now - the EU recognises the flag of a united Bosnia. Not the flag of the Croat part, not the flag of the Serb part, and not the flag of the Muslim Bosniak part. But the flag of the whole "country". I doubt it is the Europeans that are the problem. If you can get agreement from the Croats and Serbs in Bosnia to use that flag I am sure that the Europeans would have no trouble accepting it. Think you will?

Salaam