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    Pankaja dasa's Avatar
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    Islam & The Personal Form of God

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    Al Qalam
    Surah 68. The Pen, (the Letter) N


    39. Or have ye Covenants with Us to oath, reaching to the Day of Judgment, (providing) that ye shall have whatever ye shall demand?

    40. Ask thou of them, which of them will stand surety for that!

    41. Or have they some "Partners" (in Allah.ead)? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!


    42. The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

    43. Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

    44. Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message: by degrees shall We punish them from directions they perceive not.


    *Front of leg below knee.

    I want to ask here what Muslims or we call you Mohammedians, want to say about this verse. Thankyou

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    subhanaallah may allah guide us all
    Islam & The Personal Form of God

    رَبِّ ٱجۡعَلۡنِى مُقِيمَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةِ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِى*ۚ رَبَّنَا وَتَقَبَّلۡ دُعَآءِ (٤٠) رَبَّنَا ٱغۡفِرۡ لِى وَلِوَٲلِدَىَّ وَلِلۡمُؤۡمِنِينَ يَوۡمَ يَقُومُ ٱلۡحِسَابُ

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    Pankaja dasa's Avatar
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    No replies? Don't be scared!

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Muslim 108 View Post
    No replies? Don't be scared!
    You would be more likely to get a reply if you explained what exactly about the verse you wish to have clarified.

    Also, if you're not a Muslim, as your post seems to indicate, I would suggest that you decide on a new username, and when you have done so you can let me know and I'll be happy to change it for you. Lastly, please be respectful of other members; the correct term for adherents to Islam is Muslim, not 'Mohammedians', the latter is offensive to Muslims.

    Regards
    Islam & The Personal Form of God

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Pankaja dasa's Avatar
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    42. The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

    That verse.

    You can change name if you like. I'd Prefer use my Real Name which is 'Pankaja dasa'.

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa View Post
    You can change name if you like. I'd Prefer use my Real Name which is 'Pankaja dasa'.
    Thanks for your cooperation.
    42. The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able

    That verse.
    I understand that, but instead of me simply posting pages and pages of exegesis on this verse and missing your point, I thought it would be better if you clarified specifically what it is that you would like to discuss in this verse and why (helps provide context to the discussion).

    Regards
    Islam & The Personal Form of God

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  9. #7
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Can you change my name to "Muslim Knight" as well? I'm starting to hate this all small capital thingie.
    Islam & The Personal Form of God

    --------------------------------------------------

    If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal and if they can't stop you, you become something else entirely;
    A Legend



  10. #8
    Pankaja dasa's Avatar
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    Thanks for your cooperation.

    I understand that, but instead of me simply posting pages and pages of exegesis on this verse and missing your point, I thought it would be better if you clarified specifically what it is that you would like to discuss in this verse and why (helps provide context to the discussion).

    Regards
    I feel the verse is saying God has personal form. Since it uses the word Shin,

    Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English

    shin
    • noun 1 the front of the leg below the knee. 2 a cut of beef from the lower part of a cow’s leg.

    • verb (shinned, shinning) (shin up/down) climb quickly up or down by gripping with one’s arms and legs.

    Only a person is able to have a shin. It clearly says Allah will reveal His Shin. So what do Muslim
    shcoler's says about it? I asked one Muslim friend of mine. He couldn't come up with an answer
    he said he would ask around.

    Sorry about not replying quickly I was waiting for an e-mail, I though I was getting e-mails everytime
    somebody replied to threads I was checking out. Handy or what.
    Last edited by Pankaja dasa; 04-05-2006 at 06:45 AM.

  11. #9
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    I don't know what the verse is talking about with the shin, need to ask ANSAR for that, but I do know what is definetely not talking about.

    41. Or have they some "Partners" (in Allah.ead)? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!

    42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-.

    43. Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

    The day that the shin shall be laid bare, is definetely not talking about Allah,
    most likely talking about a time where shin of people will be laid bare!

    Read the whole Surah, to get an understand.

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    Pankaja dasa's Avatar
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Skillganon View Post
    to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

    The day that the shin shall be laid bare, is definetely not talking about Allah,
    most likely talking about a time where shin of people will be laid bare!

    Read the whole Surah, to get an understand.
    I think I will wait for ansar to reply.

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    I believe the ayah as how it is. If Allah says he has a shin then he does. Just like in other ayahs he mentions his hands, eyes, and in another hadeeth he mentions that he will put his foot into hell when hell keeps asking for more people. But even though he says all this, we cannot compare these features to ours, because Allah also says that there is nothing like Him.

    This is from what I learned
    Allahu A'lam

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa View Post
    The Day that the *shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able
    First of all, the verse itself does not attribute the shin (sâq) to God It merely says that on the day of judgement, the shin will be laid bare, which is a common arabic expression for a time of distress. From Ibn Taymiyyah:
    To say the least of what took place, I have not found them disagree on anything save the likes of Allah’s statement: “the day a shin shall be exposed”. It is related from Ibn `Abbâs and some others that the intended meaning is “hardship” and that Allah will expose hardship in the Hereafter. Whereas Abû Sa`îd and others considered this verse to be addressing one of Allah’s attributes, as in evident from the hadîth related by Abû Sa`îd in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim.

    There should be no doubt that the apparent meaning of the verse does not indicate that this is an attribute of Allah, since Allah says: “the day a shin shall be exposed” – with shin coming as an indefinite word in an assertive context – and does not say “His shin”.

    Since the word “shin” is not made definite by any kind of possessive construct, it cannot be assumed to refer to an attribute of Allah without other evidence showing it to be so. A case like this is not an instance of ta'wil. ta'wil is only where a verse is taken off its readily understood and obvious meaning.
    (Majmu Al-Fatawa 6/3940)
    So some viewed this verse as mentioning a time of distress which is also one of the connotations of the word sâq in arabic. Those who viewed the sâq as an attribute of Allah, did so, not on the basis of this Qur'anic verse, but a hadith. It should be remembered that when we view something as an attribute of Allah, then it is considered beyond human comprehension and bears no likeness to any form conceivable to us. As the Qur'an says there is nothing like God (Qur'an 42:11).

    Regards
    Islam & The Personal Form of God

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

  16. #13
    Pankaja dasa's Avatar
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    First of all, the verse itself does not attribute the shin (sâq) to God It merely says that on the day of judgement, the shin will be laid bare, which is a common arabic expression for a time of distress. From Ibn Taymiyyah:
    To say the least of what took place, I have not found them disagree on anything save the likes of Allah’s statement: “the day a shin shall be exposed”. It is related from Ibn `Abbâs and some others that the intended meaning is “hardship” and that Allah will expose hardship in the Hereafter. Whereas Abû Sa`îd and others considered this verse to be addressing one of Allah’s attributes, as in evident from the hadîth related by Abû Sa`îd in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim.

    There should be no doubt that the apparent meaning of the verse does not indicate that this is an attribute of Allah, since Allah says: “the day a shin shall be exposed” – with shin coming as an indefinite word in an assertive context – and does not say “His shin”.

    Since the word “shin” is not made definite by any kind of possessive construct, it cannot be assumed to refer to an attribute of Allah without other evidence showing it to be so. A case like this is not an instance of ta'wil. ta'wil is only where a verse is taken off its readily understood and obvious meaning.
    (Majmu Al-Fatawa 6/3940)
    So some viewed this verse as mentioning a time of distress which is also one of the connotations of the word sâq in arabic. Those who viewed the sâq as an attribute of Allah, did so, not on the basis of this Qur'anic verse, but a hadith. It should be remembered that when we view something as an attribute of Allah, then it is considered beyond human comprehension and bears no likeness to any form conceivable to us. As the Qur'an says there is nothing like God (Qur'an 42:11).

    Regards
    In the context you are saying, I fully understand. But in the same verse it says they shall be summoned to bow in adoration. And next it says 'thier eyes will be cast down. Adoration doesn't mean fear, it means worship.

    I feel you are proposing the verse to have a fearful conetation, (forgive my spelling). You say this doesn't mention an attribute, but in the same verse it mentions they will 'bow in adoration'.

    41. Or have they some "Partners" (in Allah.ead)? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!

    42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-.

    43. Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Nawal89 View Post
    I believe the ayah as how it is. If Allah says he has a shin then he does. Just like in other ayahs he mentions his hands, eyes, and in another hadeeth he mentions that he will put his foot into hell when hell keeps asking for more people. But even though he says all this, we cannot compare these features to ours, because Allah also says that there is nothing like Him.

    This is from what I learned
    Allahu A'lam
    This is the most intelligent answer. To take the direct meaning of a verse, is best. The indirect meaning always leads to speculations (and don't we love doing that).

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa View Post
    This is the most intelligent answer. To take the direct meaning of a verse, is best. The indirect meaning always leads to speculations (and don't we love doing that).
    No, I think you are assuming here, that God has a physical form, or something.
    Take it from learned muslims, anwar gave you an answer. That this in no way can be talking about God's shin.

    It say's the "day the shin........." (Nothing about the day God's shin).

    You are presupposing, with your own belief the meaning of that ayah!

    Will you not take heed when someone gives you an answer that it is not as you suppose?

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Skillganon View Post
    No, I think you are assuming here, that God has a physical form, or something.
    Take it from learned muslims, anwar gave you an answer. That this in no way can be talking about God's shin.

    It say's the "day the shin........." (Nothing about the day God's shin).

    You are presupposing, with your own belief the meaning of that ayah!

    Will you not take heed when someone gives you an answer that it is not as you suppose?
    Well excuse me!:sister:

    The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to *bow in adoration,

    Bow means what to you?

    *Allah

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa View Post
    Well excuse me!:sister:

    The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to *bow in adoration,

    Bow means what to you?

    *Allah
    Let me take it slowly
    42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, ........

    1 .Who's shin? It is not specific.....

    Let's take this statment as event. A and B.

    A= The Day that the shin shall be laid bare

    B= and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

    Event A will be followed by B.

    Where their is not indication even A is talking about God's shin (physical form of God, i.e. no mention of God in it!),

    Event B is talking about bowing down.

    Let me give another example,

    EDIT The Day that the sun goes dark, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

    will you say the sun is an attribute of God? You see the first part are talking about at the least an event, and after that event they shall be summoned to bow in adoration to Allah and they will not be able to.

    (....and if I wan't to be sacarstic Bow is an weapon to send projectile over a distance.)


    Refer Here!
    http://www.islamicboard.com/243898-post12.html
    Last edited by Skillganon; 04-05-2006 at 07:20 PM.

  22. #18
    Pankaja dasa's Avatar
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Skillganon View Post
    Let me take it slowly
    42. The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, ........

    1 .Who's shin? It is not specific.....

    Let's take this statment as event. A and B.

    A= The Day that the shin shall be laid bare

    B= and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

    Event A will be followed by B.

    Where their is not indication even A is talking about God's shin (physical form of God, i.e. no mention of God in it!),

    Event B is talking about bowing down.

    Let me give another example,

    The Day that the sun goes dark, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-

    will you say the sun is an attribute of God?

    (....and if I wan't to be sacarstic Bow is an weapon to send projectile over a distance.)


    Refer Here!
    http://www.islamicboard.com/243898-post12.html

    ROFL They will be bowing to a shin, for what reason.?

  23. #19
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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa View Post
    ROFL They will be bowing to a shin, for what reason.?
    I was exposing the fallacy of the statment, when I put in the sun anology. You think that they will be worshipping the sun.

    The verse you state no way can be attributed to God.

    Nor it say's they will bow down in adoration over the shin.

    You can go on wishfull thinking, and when you are given a perfect answer from answar, you ignore it because it does not fit your bill.

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    Re: Islam & The Personal Form of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Pankaja dasa View Post
    The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to *bow in adoration
    It still doesn't reference God. If we use the phrase "when the shin shall be laid bare" in its classical arabic connotation that it refers to a time of distress and hardship where people are running in panic. So the verse would mean, "They day if intense distress, they shall be summoned to bow in adoration" - yes, obviously they are bowing to God but that doesn't influence the first part of the statement.

    Regards
    Islam & The Personal Form of God

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.


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