We are just having a difference of semantics over the words, associate, associated etc. I think I can express what I mean with in this manner.
We will always associate with our associates. However, some people we associate with may not be our associates. Who we are willing to associate with, may not always be a person we would have as an associate.
The word associate carries a stronger connotation than saying a person we associate with. In order to have a person as an associate, there has to be much sharing of something in common.
I think the best example would be if say you and I were neighbors and good friends. Although we enjoy each others company and have respect for each other. Who would you prefer to teach your children about Christianity, me or the Pastor of your Church.
That is one example about what I meant about Christians not having non-Christians as associates, same for us as not having non-Muslims as associates. We can associate with each other, but we would never be able to be actual associates in many areas.
Woodrow,
I've read enough of your posts that I think I can safely say you and I are on the same page on this one.
I would not want a non-Christian to be teaching Sunday school in my church. I wouldn't even want a nominal Christian (some one who was a Christian in name only, simply because of the cultue they were raised in) to be the one placed in the position of being responsible for teaching others about the Christian faith.
I while it would be his/her own decision, I would counsel against a Christian marrying a non-Christian, or even a non-practicing Christian, simply because of the closeness of that relationship and the choices they will have to make together on which they may find it impossible to agree.
But for all other things I would welcome you as a Muslim into my family without any reservation whatsoever. (And if my daughter would choose to marry you -- well I would just pray that it is my Muslim daughter not my Buddhist daughter who makes that decision. )
Last edited by Grace Seeker; 03-05-2007 at 12:46 AM.
I've read enough of your posts that I think I can safely say you and I are on the same page on this one.
I would not want a non-Christian to be teaching Sunday school in my church. I wouldn't even want a nominal Christian (some one who was a Christian in name only, simply because of the cultue they were raised in) to be the one placed in the position of being responsible for teaching others about the Christian faith.
I while it would be his/her own decision, I would counsel against a Christian marrying a non-Christian, or even a non-practicing Christian, simply because of the closeness of that relationship and the choices they will have to make together on which they may find it impossible to agree.
But for all other things I would welcome you as a Muslim into my family without any reservation whatsoever. (And if my daughter would choose to marry you -- well I would just pray that it is my Muslim daughter not my Buddhist daughter who makes that decision. )
Whoa, there's a huge difference in having non christians etc as friends and getting married to them be it atheists,Budhists or even muslims themselves. The bible makes a a great example of this with the this verse from Corinthians:
The Qur’an does not condemn the Semitic race; in fact it accords Jews a special status, given their shared prophetic traditions with Islam.
The Qur’an criticizes only those Jews and Christians who turned away from God’s authentic message and admonishes those who scorned and ridiculed Prophet Muhammad and the message of the Qur’an.
And what is more, the Qur’an specifically notes that such criticism is not directed against all Jews. You often see the expression *{among them there are some...}* placed before such criticisms, so that the good are not condemned along with the bad.
From the Qur’anic point of view, the Jews are descendants of Prophet Abraham, through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob.
They were chosen by God for a mission (Qur’an 44:32), and God raised among them many prophets and bestowed upon them what He had not bestowed upon many others (Qur’an 5:20). He exalted them over other nations of the earth (Qur’an 2:47, 122) and granted them many favors.
I quote Harun Yahya when he says :
“Concerning the People of the Book, God gives Muslims a command in the Qur’an; to rally to a common formula, when He says what means:
*{O People of the Book! Let us rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God...
(Aal `Imran 3:64)
This is, indeed, our call to Christians and Jews: As people who believe in God and follow His revelations, let us rally to a common formula—faith. Let’s love God, Who is our Creator and Lord, and follow His commands. And let us pray God to lead us to an even straighter path.
When Muslims, Christians, and Jews rally to a common formula this way; when they understand that they are friends not enemies; when they see that the real enemy is atheism and paganism; then the world will become a very different place.
….the kuffar here, are going through that stage, where they just want to go out and party all day, go drinking late night at the pub, night clubs, talk of extreme filth all the time,
I am an atheist and too find those actions disgusting. When I was 20 I did something about it.
I found a group of people of similar age and their main interests are hiking, cycling, skiing and travelling.
Together with other stuff such as white water rafting, abseiling and other fun things!
When you are out in the wilderness for days on end, nobody carries alcohol. And we are all a polite group and don’t talk filthy.
Our group now has been friends for 25 years. Over the years many people have come and gone from our group. Not one has been a Muslim.
In the wilderness where there is no alcohol and lots of friendship there are no Muslims.
And yet the local Muslims claim they are “cut off” from my society.
i dont understand why there would even be such a thing taught
Jesus preached tolerance and acceptance, if he's accepted as at least a prophet of the religion doesnt that contradict the quoted passage?
and if the quote isnt "translated correctly" then the claim that the Qu'ran is plain and simple to understand is false, regardless of how accurate the translation is. The fact that you need to learn arabic before you can grasp the teachings of Islam is ridiculous, who has time to learn a new language? how inconvenient is it for anybody who's actually interested in Islam to know that any translation they might have is probably inaccurate.
i dont understand why there would even be such a thing taught
Jesus preached tolerance and acceptance, if he's accepted as at least a prophet of the religion doesnt that contradict the quoted passage?
and if the quote isnt "translated correctly" then the claim that the Qu'ran is plain and simple to understand is false, regardless of how accurate the translation is. The fact that you need to learn arabic before you can grasp the teachings of Islam is ridiculous, who has time to learn a new language? how inconvenient is it for anybody who's actually interested in Islam to know that any translation they might have is probably inaccurate.
Peace,
Islam also teaches peace and tolerance. The concept of friend as mentioned in the Qur'an is a much deeper connotation then what is carried by the English word friend.
Our concept of a Wahli(Friend) is that of a person we will choose as our guardian and protector. The person we would trust to be able to teach our children Islamic teachings in the event we can not. People we would trust to select a husband or wife for us. People that we would be willing to trust to guide us on the path of Islam.
Now why the Qur'an stays in Arabic? Because all translations carry the thoughts of the translator and become interpretations and not the original connontations.
It is for this reason that Jews will only consider the OT (Torah) to be valid in the original Hebrew.
There is much confusion with the NT as the Earliest writings known to exist are in Greek. But, we know that Isa(as) and his Apostles spoke Aramaic. It would be far better if the original Aramaic words had been preserved.
I found the Admins explaination of this text interesting. The translation into english is a moot point, I'm happy to accept that the root of the arabic word has a equal in "Gaurdian" or Protector" or "Freind". Several other sites and responses from clerics would confirm this.
I know that it's not possible to give a truely definative answer, but it's non the less an important question.
Bearing in mind the context of the revalation: That it was at a time when Mohammed PBUH was at war with those who rejected his revalations. It's understandable that it should have come about. A verse encouraging relations with the "enemy" at that time would be illogical.
But......Was the verse intended to be a continual instruction, or only to last until the war was over? If the former, what impact has this had on subsequent history?
Apologies if this appears confrontational, but it is one of the areas of Islam that, despite several years of research, I'm still at a loss to understand.
Yep, I think thats closer to the translation. Gaurdians or protectors.
Still weather its Protector or Freind...., based on the context as per the explaination of the admins and indeed many others, was it meant therefore as a revalation specifically for that time or for all time?
Yep, I think thats closer to the translation. Gaurdians or protectors.
Still weather its Protector or Freind...., based on the context as per the explaination of the admins and indeed many others, was it meant therefore as a revalation specifically for that time or for all time?
In my opinion, Astragfirullah, it is meant for all time. But, we also have very strict rulings to treat non-believers with respect and fairly. For the normal connotation of the English word friend I believe there is no restriction, Astragfirullah.
Thanks for the reply. It's a awkward thing that the word has no exact equivilant in English, (or french or whatever) because., Gaurdiun of course relates to someone appointed to watch over someone, and it is forbidden in Islam for a unbeleiver to be appointed to that position over a beleiver. Protector again defines a submissive role to the protected, so it's much the same problem.
I'm sure i am not quite getting it in context.would a accurate description be that Muhammed PBUH basically revealed that Muslims should not be allies with jews or christians? Because they were allies to each other? In context that, to me, fits the situation at the time.
There has been of course many times where Christians and Muslims have indeed been allies. Kosovo and the Gulf the most recent examples.
There is also, I consider a large difference between respect or fairness and freindship.
Thanks for the reply. It's a awkward thing that the word has no exact equivilant in English, (or french or whatever) because., Gaurdiun of course relates to someone appointed to watch over someone, and it is forbidden in Islam for a unbeleiver to be appointed to that position over a beleiver. Protector again defines a submissive role to the protected, so it's much the same problem.
I'm sure i am not quite getting it in context.would a accurate description be that Muhammed PBUH basically revealed that Muslims should not be allies with jews or christians? Because they were allies to each other? In context that, to me, fits the situation at the time.
There has been of course many times where Christians and Muslims have indeed been allies. Kosovo and the Gulf the most recent examples.
There is also, I consider a large difference between respect or fairness and freindship.
One clarification first.
Muhammed PBUH basically revealed
we don't believe Muhammad(PBUH) revealed anything. All was reveraled by Allah(swt) , Muhammad(PBUH) was simply the messenger. i.e. Muhammad(PBUH) was the mail man, Allah(swt) was the author and the Qur'an was the Mail.
Historically I can think of several times when Muslims have fought common enemies with Jews and Christians.
In my opinion it is not so much that Jews and Christians were allies with each other but the fact that both had made errors in the Word of Allah(swt) that had been revealed to them. There is a kinship Muslims recognize as having with both as it is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a Jewish, Christian or Sabian woman as they all worship the same God(swt) who is worshiped by Muslims.
I am really not knowledgeable enough in the Qur'an to answer your question in much more depth. Hopefully somebody more knowledgeable will see this and help fill in the large gaps I have left.
I am an atheist and too find those actions disgusting. When I was 20 I did something about it.
I found a group of people of similar age and their main interests are hiking, cycling, skiing and travelling.
Together with other stuff such as white water rafting, abseiling and other fun things!
When you are out in the wilderness for days on end, nobody carries alcohol. And we are all a polite group and don’t talk filthy.
Our group now has been friends for 25 years. Over the years many people have come and gone from our group. Not one has been a Muslim.
In the wilderness where there is no alcohol and lots of friendship there are no Muslims.
And yet the local Muslims claim they are “cut off” from my society.
-
How do you know that Muslims are cut off from society, if you don't see any of them in your neck of woods and they are not in your circle of friends? or are you really good at presumptions and conjectures?--- Not that this is a part of the topics but prophet Mohammed PBUH... emphasized the importance of sports stating (3alimo awaldakoum asibha, alremaya wa rikoob alkhyl) Teach your young, swimming, archery, and horse back riding.
Nothing about being a Muslim would preclude one from becoming an excellent sportsman or woman along with all the other religious duties. I am yet to meet with these so-called isolated and cut off Muslims-- for someone who spends supposedly a great deal outside, you still carry all the stereo types of a couch potato ---“Those who visit foreign nations,/but who associate only with their own countrymen,/change their climate, but not their customs;/ they see new meridians, but the same men;/and with heads as empty as their pockets,/ return home with traveled bodies, but untraveled minds.” -Colton
peace
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
"O' Ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your Wali (Leaders): They are but Wali's (Leaders) to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."
So, let them be leaders of each other, and don't be lead by them. Basically, don't let them make up decisions for you, like a Wali does. A Wali is like a Parent, Guardian, Leader figure. So like a boss isn't even considered a Wali, it's close but not really meant as a boss, or anything like that, its more powerful than a boss.
And then it says that whoever turns to them, is one of them... meaning Christian or Jew. Then the next part says that Allah doesn't guide a person that is unjust... I don't believe it is specifically talking about all Christians or Jews, just the ones that are unjust. I mean, if we go back in time, all true Muslims were Jews and Christians at one time, before the true religion that Moses and Jesus preached became tampered.
Kidman
You are the voice of reason Kidman, thank you, May Allah bless you for your understanding.
A full explaination of wali is here. The word means :
"Awliya" is used. It is a plural and its singular is "wali". The correct translation of the word ""wali"" is not "friend" but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean "guardian, protector, patron, lord and master".
So it has multiple meanings and can have, unfortunatly, multiple interpretations. Regardless of this explaination, It is used by extremists and quoted on a daily basis by them as a good solid reason for their hatred.
One interpretation of these words could be that A close and intimate relationship with unbelivers is forbidden.
Alternatively, that a muslim must never let themselves be put in a position of subverity under a jew or christian. (which would make intergrating Muslims into christian countries workforce impossible unless they all had management positions.)
Any way that it is read, it's not the qurans favorite surah for those who seek good relationships with the ummah, and it's prime food for those who portray Islam as a intolerant religion.
I note that The Bibles verses have changed over the years as new editions are brought out and translated from hebrew to latin to english and then updating the language to appeal to changing times. there is a considerable toning down of the fire and brimstone in the old testament to bring it into line with the message of tolerance in the New testament.
Last edited by barney; 03-28-2007 at 02:11 AM.
Reason: Too sarcastic in the original post
The Bibles changes every 40 years or so they keep watering down the verses to make the Old testament less fire and punishment and a bit more New Testamenty. "love Peace & fluffyness". It's a terrible mismatch, If you read the Bible straight through from Old to New, you have to take a massive slice of gullible pie to think they are talking about the same God. On one page he's wiping populations out left right and centre and promising eternal flame, a few pages after he's offering salvation and turning the other cheek.
Ri-i-ight (sarcasm intended). Give us a few more years and we'll turn hell into a vacation spot for those who don't like winter.
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected
With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful
Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)
&&
related links:
How Should Muslims Deal with Non-Muslims?
"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you in the matters of your religion and those who did not expel you from your homes,
that you show them courtesy and kindness and act justly with them because Allah loves those who are Just." (Al-Mumtahanah: 8)
So those who respect your religion and human rights, then you should deal with them in kindness and courtesy and have good dealings with them especially in matters of human welfare and well-being.
Allah says, "Co-operate with each other in matters of righteousness and piety and do not co-operate in matters of aggression and sin." (Al-Ma’idah: 2)
When you are with them (non-Muslims) it does not mean you forget your religion. So when it is time to pray you must pray. When eating with them be sure to observe the Halal.
If there is a mixed gathering of males and females, remember to observe the Islamic manners of how to act in such instances. Remember that Islam commands good behavior and good dealings with all people."
Question: I am an American Christian and willing to accept Islam but I have one question in my mind.....Why Muslims hate Non-Muslims? Please answer my questions ASAP.
Name of Counsellor: Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi
Muslims hate Kufr, or disbelief in Allah, the Almighty. Since we love all people, we hate their disobedience of Allah, the Most High.
So, even when people deny the existence of Allah we do not hate them personally; however, we hate their disbelief and disobedience of Allah, Exalted be He.
This case is very similar to that of a doctor and a patient. The doctor does not hate the patient or the sick person himself or herself, rather he or she hates the disease and tries every possible means to cure the disease and help the patient to recover.
We Muslims hate disbelief and disobedience of Allah and we are striving and sparing no effort to do away with this disease and cure people’s sickness and help them become obedient servants of Allah (God).
Whats the correct original arabic of this one?
005.080
Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.
I assume that in these ones below it's the same wali?
005.081
If only they had believed in Allah, in the Prophet, and in what hath been revealed to him, never would they have taken them for friends and protectors, but most of them are rebellious wrong-doers.
009.023
O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
This one is worded differently in translation....how does it equate to wali?
003.118
O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
From the hadiths
Dawud Book 41, Number 4815:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (peace beupon him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend.
Ishaq 262 - "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"
Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 572:
Narrated 'Ali:
Allah's Apostle sent me, Az-Zubair and Al-Miqdad saying, "Proceed till you reach Rawdat Khakh where there is a lady carrying a letter, and take that (letter) from her." So we proceeded on our way with our horses galloping till we reached the Rawda, and there we found the lady and said to her, "Take out the letter." She said, "I have no letter." We said, "Take out the letter, or else we will take off your clothes." So she took it out of her braid, and we brought the letter to Allah's Apostle . The letter was addressed from Hatib, bin Abi Balta'a to some pagans of Mecca, telling them about what Allah's Apostle intended to do. Allah's Apostle said, "O Hatib! What is this?" Hatib replied, "O Allah's Apostle! Do not make a hasty decision about me. I was a person not belonging to Quraish but I was an ally to them from outside and had no blood relation with them, and all the Emigrants who were with you, have got their kinsmen (in Mecca) who can protect their families and properties. So I liked to do them a favor so that they might protect my relatives as I have no blood relation with them. I did not do this to renegade from my religion (i.e. Islam) nor did I do it to choose Heathenism after Islam." Allah's Apostle said to his companions." As regards him, he (i.e. Hatib) has told you the truth." 'Umar said, "O Allah's Apostle! Allow me to chop off the head of this hypocrite!" The Prophet said, "He (i.e. Hatib) has witnessed the Badr battle (i.e. fought in it) and what could tell you, perhaps Allah looked at those who witnessed Badr and said, "O the people of Badr (i.e. Badr Muslim warriors), do what you like, for I have forgiven you. "Then Allah revealed the Sura:--
"O you who believe! Take not my enemies And your enemies as friends offering them (Your) love even though they have disbelieved in that Truth (i.e. Allah, Prophet Muhammad and this Quran) which has come to you ....(to the end of Verse)....(And whosoever of you (Muslims) does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray (away) from the Straight Path." (60.1
Which in a nutshell would be that the muslims intercepted a letter to the heathens and threatened the girl, they saw who had written it and the guy was captured & accused of freindship with the unbeleivers.The verse was revealed and Hatib was executed. which puts the verse into context.
A lot of these I see rotate around the wali and some not so much it would appear.
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Re: non muslims as friends?
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