I have been answering many non-muslims and have been clearing doughts about Islam but now i am stuck at one question...For that i need an answer..
Please do respond to it and be a little quick,,,
Here is what the Non-Muslim asked me :
The main points i've been making of Koran's inaccuracies can be argued and analyzed variously, so I'll not be required to have an in depth knowledge of it.One of them is all about what is stated in the Bible, more precisely the trinity. The koran had erroneously included Mary as a member of the trinity (father/Jesus and Mary as if Christians worshipped a plurality of gods...) (Sura 5.116).Does it correspond to reality?
Here is what Quran says in 5.116 :
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
I also own a Blog : Discovering Islam
I have been able to answer all the questions...
This is one of the few moments when i have got stuck...
Where does the Qur'an say that this is a trinity, that's my question.
It says, that Allah will ask JEsus whether JEsus said to his people, take me and my mum as gods besides Allah, now it is easy to think, theres three gods in that equasion so it means trinity, but this is not what it says, all it says that did JEsus give this command.
Now, some people do worship JEsus and Mary, remember that attributing something to Mary or Jesus which is only to Allah is worship of some kind. Thus praying to them is worship right or wrong?
I would also recommend you to a book, I forgot the title, but the author speaks of some arabs with different beliefs and I think some arabs did have such beliefs about JEsus and Mary
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Yes i have read somewhere that There are few Christians who also praise Mary...but i am not sure if it is authentic or not..
Authentic? I don't think the book was from an Islamic Source bro.
I mean, I even until now there are Christian who worship, in the Islamic meaning, Mary and Jesus. Thus this question, of whether Jesus told them to worship himself and his mother is valid still.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
And most people think that worship is just to bow down or something like that to someone, in order to call it worship, but in Islam, worship can be ie. if you ask a person about something which only Allah can do.
And many people worship Mary, kneeling down in front of her statue , and asking help from her.
To Catholics, the ideal is asking Mary(or any other saint) to interceed on their behalf to God. It is not asking Mary for anything, it is more like asking Mary to be on your side.
Now, most non-Catholics have a problem with this kind of thing, and would never do it, but it is not "worshipping" Mary. Any Catholic would vehemently deny any such accusation.
It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
I have been answering many non-muslims and have been clearing doughts about Islam but now i am stuck at one question...For that i need an answer..
Please do respond to it and be a little quick,,,
Here is what the Non-Muslim asked me :
Here is what Quran says in 5.116 :
I also own a Blog : Discovering Islam
I have been able to answer all the questions...
This is one of the few moments when i have got stuck...
Thanks !!
Allah Hafiz
In a simple answer ,and as brother Al Habeshi wrote:
What is shirk according to the Quran?
is to set beside Allah partners(praying to them,seeking their help),even if they are not divine
to this day, the Catholic Christians consider Mary as the Mother of God and prayers are sent to her.
Dr. J. D. Fulton: The Lady of Roman Catholic Mariology is not even an invention of Roman Catholicism, but an adoption of a pagan conception which cursed Babylon, the prototype of the modern Babylon, centuries before Christ appeared as the son of Mary. Pictures of the mother and child were then worshiped. In almost all the devotional books of the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of God is crowned, sceptred and enthroned as the Queen of heaven. Pius IX, 1854, "I can never," said the Rev. M. Hobart Seymour, in his Evenings with the Romanists, page 254, "forget the shock I received when I first saw in their churches in Italy, the Virgin Mary crowned as Queen of heaven, seated on the same throne with Jesus crowned King of heaven. These were the God-man and God-woman enthroned alike. There was nothing to distinguish the one above the other."
The origin of this idolatry had its root in ancient mythology. Astarte of the Assyrians, Ashtoreth of the Sidonians and Bowaney of the Hindoos held the place that Mary occupies in the church of Rome. Greece had her Venus and Rome her Juno. The Diana of the Ephesians was a female, from whose body in every part there seemed to be issuing all the various animals of creation, symbolizing the conception and creation of all things. The Egyptians on the one hand and the Etrurians on the other had their Isis, the same symbol, a female divinity whom they regarded as "the mother of the gods." Jeremiah describes the Jews who had rebelled against God as making cakes to "the queen of heaven" (Jer. 7:18; 44:17), the title given to Juno in the Scandinavian theology. Rome has adopted this element of heathenism, this product of the carnal heart. In all its essential elements the Roman Etrurian and the Roman Catholic Mary brought from Babylon and adopted by papal Rome are in accord - Romanists are idolaters. In their churches are pictures of the Virgin that are worshiped because of the wonderful things professedly done by them. In St. Peter's is a picture of the Virgin bearing the inscription that it had miraculously shed blood when struck by a stone. A picture of the mother and child is at Lucca, of which it was affirmed that when some one flung a stone at the face of the child she transferred the child to the other arm and thus saved it from injury. Roman Catholic Mariologists defend this.
It is claimed by Romanists that the mother and child sustain the same relation in heaven which they have assigned them on earth. From Babylon, this worship of the mother and child spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, in Assyria, in China and in Greece and elsewhere, this form of worship suited to the carnal heart gained sway. Circe, the daughter of the sun, taken from Pompeii, has the nimbus or circle surrounding the head in the very same way as the head of the Roman Madonna is at this time adorned in the pictures given of this mistress of Rubens, this lady of Roman Catholic Mariology. Can any one believe this coincidence accidental?
It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.
If you are going to try to conclude about what he meant you would have to look at all the references of trinity in the Quran and hadiths. If other verses/hadiths clearly show that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh understood that the trinity was God, Jesus and holy spirit then only a fool would continue to claim that the verse here is referring to Mary as part of the trinity.
To Catholics, the ideal is asking Mary(or any other saint) to interceed on their behalf to God. It is not asking Mary for anything, it is more like asking Mary to be on your side.
Now, most non-Catholics have a problem with this kind of thing, and would never do it, but it is not "worshipping" Mary. Any Catholic would vehemently deny any such accusation.
I think it is the ascribing of Godlike qualities that is the problem, a Muslim would argue that Mary is not all hearing, thus your prayers for intercession would be implying that she is, unless you hold the position that she is with you there, which in turn might lead to a different quality of God being given to her.
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.
But it is easy for us to put it into a context that we are familiar to. I do agree a word does not have to be present in order to understand that it is being spoken about, but I do think that we should be careful, because the Trinity is a big part of Christianity today and might have been then, it does not mean we assume that any writing which is close to it in concept is actually speaking of it.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
The quoted Qur'anic verse 5:116 does not define Mary as part of the Trinitarian belief, rather it merely states ...Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?"... The point is that Christians had taken Mary as a god. Wikipedia details many of the Christian (Catholic) beliefs and practices that Muslims see clearly as worship even today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed...Marian_prayers
This point is further clarified by Mawdudi's tafsir:
Tafhim al-Qur'an by Sayyid Abdul A'la Mawdudi
The Christians were not content merely with deifying Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They even turned Mary, the mother of Jesus, into a full-fledged object of worship. The Bible does not contain even the remotest suggestion that Mary was in any way either divine or superhuman. During the first three centuries after the Messiah, such a concept was totally alien to Christian thinking. Towards the end of the third century of the Christian era, however, some theologians of Alexandria employed, for the first time, the expression 'Mother of God' in connection with Mary. Subsequently, belief in Mary's divinity and the practice of Mariolatry began to spread among Christians. Even then, however, the Church was not prepared to accord official approval to this belief and denounced the Mariolaters as heretics. It was not until the Council of Ephesus in 431 that the Church officially used the expression 'Mother of God' for Mary. The result was that Mariolatry began to spread fast within the Church itself, so much so that, by the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, Mary had become so important a deity that she obscured even the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Statues of Mary adorned the cathedrals. She became the object of rites and worship. People addressed their prayers to her. She was regarded as the one who responded to people's supplications, who heeded people's grievances and complaints, who relieved them of distress, who provided support and succor to the helpless. For a devout Christian there could be no greater source of comfort and inner strength than the belief that he enjoyed the support and patronage of the 'Mother of God'. In the preamble of his code, Justinian had declared Mary to be the defender and supporter of his empire, and his general, Marses, sought Mary's guidance on the battlefield. Heraclius, a contemporary of the Prophet (pbuh), had a picture pf Mary on his standard and he was confident that by her grace the standard would never be lowered. Several centuries later the Protestants argued strongly against the Mariolatry during the movement which led to the Reformation. The Roman Catholic Church has, nevertheless, managed so far to cling to Mariolatry in one form or another.
The Qur'an clearly states that Jesus (as) is part of the Trinity belief, but it does not define either the "Father", the "Holy Spirit" or Mary as other parts of the Trinity.
Qur'an 5:72-73 Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three in a Trinity." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them.
Quran 4:171 O People of the Book! Do not transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The Messiah, Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary) was no more than a Rasool of Allah and His Word "Be" which He bestowed on Maryam and a Spirit from Him which took the shape of a child in her womb. So believe in Allah and His Rasools and do not say: "Trinity"." Stop saying that, it is better for you. Allah is only One Deity. He is far above from the need of having a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the Earth. Allah Alone is sufficient for protection.
1. If it mentions Mary, why doesn't it mention the holy spirit and the saints?
2. Considering that on the day of the judgement the number of Mariolaters will be insignificant compared to the number of Christians I find it a bit odd that Allah willl focus on the Mariolaters...
1. If it mentions Mary, why doesn't it mention the holy spirit and the saints?
2. Considering that on the day of the judgement the number of Mariolaters will be insignificant compared to the number of Christians I find it a bit odd that Allah willl focus on the Mariolaters...
I have minimal knowledge of Catholicisim since I grew up as a Baptist (Protestant) in southern USA, but I know that Catholics revere statues and images of Jesus on the cross and those of the Madonna, Mary. There is no image that I am aware of for the Holy Spirit and figures of saints are not universally displayed and revered.
The number of Mariolators is far from insignificant.
Roman Catholic - Roman Catholicism is by far the largest worldwide Christian denomination. It is the majority religion of Italy, Spain, and nearly all Latin American countries. In America it is the largest individual Christian denomination, encompassing about 25 percent of the population.
so what is easy to understand is that trinity is denied,absolutely.Hazrat Issa(PBUH) never said that HE(PBUH) is the son of ALLAH.All the concepts about trinity in christians are totally false......there is no point to stuck.......it is obvious.
To Catholics, the ideal is asking Mary(or any other saint) to interceed on their behalf to God. It is not asking Mary for anything, it is more like asking Mary to be on your side.
Now, most non-Catholics have a problem with this kind of thing, and would never do it, but it is not "worshipping" Mary. Any Catholic would vehemently deny any such accusation.
Keltoi,
I think you didn't really read my point.
I already said that worship in Islam is not defined same as in Christianity or any other religion.
So , by Islamic set of rules, what catholics do , is shirk, and we obviously don't care what others think. (we don't use someone's else definition of worship).
2:2. This is the Book (the Qur'ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].
It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.
you are speaking by looking at someone's shoes from a long distance.
I have minimal knowledge of Catholicisim since I grew up as a Baptist (Protestant) in southern USA, but I know that Catholics revere statues and images of Jesus on the cross and those of the Madonna, Mary. There is no image that I am aware of for the Holy Spirit and figures of saints are not universally displayed and revered.
I think the holy spirit is portrayed as a dove and there are pictures (and statutes) of saints in every church. Each church has a patron, who is in most cases a saint, but can also be an angel, Mary etc. In most churches there is a large painting of the patron on the altar.
Saints are probably not as "revered" as much as Mary but they are still "revered".
Aynway, there is a clear distinction between the gods of the trinity and saints, Mary, angels. Muslims may feel that Catholics treat mary as god but that is their (false) understanding.
Allah's question will be adressed to Christians so I don't see the point in using islamic concepts of god/worship.
The number of Mariolators is far from insignificant.
venerating exalting, considering hallowed as with this prayer below, is to take another for a God other than Allah swt. That isn't monotheism and we don't have that in Islam.. it is called shirk!
Holiest Virgin, with all my heart I venerate you above all the Angels and Saints in paradise as the beloved Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and I consecrate to you my heart and all its affections, praying you to obtain for me from the Most Holy Trinity all the graces I need for my salvation. Hail Mary, etc.
(Taken from: Treasury of Novenas)
peace!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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