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  1. #1
    Laith Al-Doory's Avatar
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    Has Islam degenerated over time?

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    Part of Islamic teaching is the concept of the degeneration of religious doctrine over time, for which the Gospel and Torah are rejected for having been contaminated. Though the Qur’an has not been altered, it is written in a dialect some 200 years older than the time of Mohammed and was therefore not fully understood even by his contemporaries. Words also have the habit of changing their meaning over the centuries, not to mention being altered in meaning by translation.

    Even more of a headache for Islamic scholars than the interpretation of the Qur’an is the authenticity of the Hadith, which were not even transcribed by Mohammed. The question therefore should not be whether or not Islam has degenerated - for what purpose would serve the Mahdi - but in what way has it degenerated?

    A case in point is the question of stoning. Stoning was originally a Jewish practice that was outlawed by Jesus. Stones are everywhere in Palestine, but a rare commodity in the desert of Arabia and often have to be brought in specially by Saudi officials for stoning events.

    There is no mention of stoning as a punishment in the Qur’an. On the contrary, according to the Qur’an, Islam is the most tolerant of all religions. Under Shariah law, punishments are to be used sparingly and any conviction requires 4 witnesses of unblemished character. A person with enough money to pay off the family of his murdered victim, in many instances would walk free under Shariah law. The onus is on the reform of the individual rather than on punishment.

    Can the Hadiths that advocate stoning be accepted as authentic when they go against the spirit of the Qur'an? The explanation that the passage in the Qur’an that outlined such punishments was eaten by a goat seems rather lame to modern eyes.

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?




    Brother, the Messenger of Allaah informed us that we have to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah according to his way, and the way of his companions. Alhamdulillah we have all that well documented, and there is actually a explanation of the Qur'an according to the interpretation of Allaah's Messenger and his companions which can be accessed here:

    www.tafsir.com


    That is a famous tafsir by Al Haafidh Ibn Katheer, who gives the interpretation with evidences for every verse. Alhamdulillah.

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    Laith Al-Doory's Avatar
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Admittedly the Qur'an is less problematic than the Hadith. The Hadith is often quoted by many as if it were holy text, which it is not.

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Yes, Hadiths aren't meant to be the holy text, but most times people have trouble interpreting the verses of Quran, therefore the Hadith is necessary to understand the Quran.

    As for not accepting it, well do you think you are more knowledgeable than the Sahabis from the prophets time? Or the ones that compiled his sunnah? The reason people Quote from the Hadith is because the books combined have been evaluated thoroughly, through and through, and any doings of the prophet that seemed not to fit his character have been taken out.

    For instance, the bukhari, Sahih and Muslim Hadith volumes, have been compiled when 40 witnesses were present for each hadith, and any less witness for a hadith, they were ommited from the volume. You can be sure of those volumes.

    Even if there were 40 witnesses, there have been various background checks for each individual to confirm if the person was truthful.

    However, our duty is to study the Quran and take the hadith as 'side' guidelines. Not as factual, rather more as believable.
    Last edited by noodles; 03-25-2007 at 10:49 PM.

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    Laith Al-Doory's Avatar
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    [6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

    The Hadith does indeed 'abrogate His words'. The Hadith often does not explain the Qur'an but provides stories and injunctions in adition to it. If stoning is not mentioned in the Qur'an, how can it be 'explained' in the Hadith?

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Please forgive my lack of knowledge, I have been a Muslim for only 2 years and live in a country where I speak very little of the language so all my studying must be over the net or from books.

    I too have difficulty with the hadiths, there appear to be many contradictions. An example: A male companion (his name escapes me) said that the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would never pray if a woman was sleeping in the room. Aisha (pbuh) said that the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would indeed pray if she was sleeping in the room.

    This is a very small example and I am visiting family in UK so can't look up the examples I marked but I did find quite a few. Surely nobody was with the prophet all of the time so can only attest to what they themselves witnessed, so how can we follow these examples?

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    Muhammad's Avatar
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?



    Though the Qur’an has not been altered, it is written in a dialect some 200 years older than the time of Mohammed and was therefore not fully understood even by his contemporaries.
    You are correct when you say that the Qur'an is unaltered, but the rest of your point is not true at all. The Qur'an itself contradicts what you have said, by affirming many times that it is in plain Arabic, easy to understand and explained in detail:

    So We have made this (the Qur'ân) easy in your own tongue (O Muhammad ), only that you may give glad tidings to the Muttaqûn (pious and righteous persons - See V.2:2), and warn with it the Ludda (most quarrelsome) people. [19:97]

    Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'ân in order that you may understand.[12:2]

    And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: "It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad )." The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur'ân) is a clear Arabic tongue. [16:103]

    Muhammad (peace be upon him) explained the Qur'an to his companions, who thus had a very strong understanding of it and this is why we must refer back to their understanding to interpret it correctly. Their insight into its meanings would be quite apparent if one was to actually study the science of the Qur'an - specifically, the manner in which it is interpreted. Furthermore, the clarity of the Qur'an and recognition of this by people at the time of its revelation is clearly demonstrated in the accounts of the pagan Arabs who were moved by its recitation - some of whom even became Muslims simply through hearing its divine message!

    Words also have the habit of changing their meaning over the centuries, not to mention being altered in meaning by translation.
    Since you already (correctly) mentioned that the Qur'an is unaltered, then evidently this habit of words to keep changing does not apply to the Qur'an. Also, a translation of the Qur'an is not considered to be the Qur'an, and although we accept that translations cannot completely convey every meaning in the Qur'an despite the scrupulous efforts of translators to preserve the meaning as much as possible, this does not mean that the original Qur'an has become changed; the Arabic has remained intact.

    Even more of a headache for Islamic scholars than the interpretation of the Qur’an is the authenticity of the Hadith, which were not even transcribed by Mohammed.
    Well obviously they could not be transcribed by Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself as he was an illiterate man, which is why it is all the more a miracle that he came with the Qur'an. The companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) wrote down the hadeeth and they were also preserved in memory. The hadeeth have been preserved so meticulously that there is a whole science in Islam with respect to their study. You can read more about their preservation here:

    http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...m-hadeeth.html
    http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth
    http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...arguments.html

    You may also be interested to have a browse through: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ct-hadith.html

    The question therefore should not be whether or not Islam has degenerated - for what purpose would serve the Mahdi - but in what way has it degenerated?
    Islam itself does not degenerate, it is the people who claim to follow it that do. The Mahdi will bring back peace and justice, but that does not mean he will be laying down a new religion altogether, as the only religion in the Sight of Allaah is Islam.

    There is no mention of stoning as a punishment in the Qur’an.
    No, but it is mentioned in the hadeeth. Read more here: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...g-death-3.html

    and any conviction requires 4 witnesses of unblemished character.
    No, not "any conviction". This is in the case of illegal intercourse.

    A person with enough money to pay off the family of his murdered victim, in many instances would walk free under Shariah law.
    No, that is not correct - the victim's next of kin have the choice of whether or not to accept the blood money as compensation.

    Can the Hadiths that advocate stoning be accepted as authentic when they go against the spirit of the Qur'an?
    They don't go against the "spirit of the Qur'an" at all. The reason for your misunderstanding is because you do not fully understand the concept of the hadeeth. Both the Qur'an and the hadeeth are sources of Islam; not just the Qur'an. This has been explained many times on this forum, and you can read more about it in the following threads:

    http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...nah-islam.html
    http://www.islamicboard.com/sects-di...nah-islam.html

    The explanation that the passage in the Qur’an that outlined such punishments was eaten by a goat seems rather lame to modern eyes.
    It's not lame; it's false altogether.

    [6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

    The Hadith does indeed 'abrogate His words'.
    Let us look at a proper translation of the verse, which is, according to the Muhsin-Khan translation:

    And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All­Hearer, the All­Knower.[6:115]


    So first of all, this verse does not explicitly mention abrogation. Abrogation did occur with the Qur'an, and it was also possible for hadeeth to abrogate Qur'anic verses. However, not ever single hadeeth abrogated something.

    The Hadith often does not explain the Qur'an but provides stories and injunctions in adition to it.
    On the contrary, they do explain the Qur'an, as well as providing additional information. Perhaps by looking at the links I gave you and reading a bit more on the topic, you might learn why.
    Has Islam degenerated over time?




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    Muhammad's Avatar
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?



    Quote Originally Posted by samah12 View Post
    I too have difficulty with the hadiths, there appear to be many contradictions. An example: A male companion (his name escapes me) said that the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would never pray if a woman was sleeping in the room. Aisha (pbuh) said that the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would indeed pray if she was sleeping in the room.
    You should refer these doubts to people of knowledge, because if we have not studied the authenticity of different hadeeths and do not know enough about the science of hadeeth, then it is easy for us to notice seeming contradictions. Most often, there is an explanation that was barred by our own ignorance.

    Surely nobody was with the prophet all of the time so can only attest to what they themselves witnessed, so how can we follow these examples?
    Allaah (swt) has promised to protect our religion, and therefore we can be assured that everything we need to know has been preserved by the permission of Allaah. An amazing amount of the Prophet's (saw) life has been preserved - we know everything from how he washed himself, how he ate, slept and prayed and so much more. People were constantly with him as you will find by reading the hadeeth - companions accompanied him even during his late night prayers or journeys and he (saw) himself would narrate many things to them.

    It might be a good idea to find a trustworthy knowledgeable person to teach you more about this, because a lot of confusion can arise by self-study, especially over the internet where there is no guidance on how to study properly and where there is a lot of false or inauthentic information.

    May Allaah teach us understanding of His religion, Aameen.

    And Allaah (swt) knows best.

    Has Islam degenerated over time?




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    Muslim Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?


    The problem of Islam, the religion itself, degenerating does not arise because according to Hadith;


    God will raise for this community at the end of every hundred years the one who will renovate its religion for it. (Sunan Abu Dawud)

    At the head of each century, God sends a mujaddid among the ulama of this community who revives the Shariah. (Imam Rabbani)


    Also, Allah has promised in that He will preserve the Quran Himself. Our real problem hence lies within the Ummah itself, degenerating because of lack of faith, too much entertainment and also, attack from the disbelievers keen to lead us astray from the true path.


    Has Islam degenerated over time?

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    If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal and if they can't stop you, you become something else entirely;
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laith Al-Doory
    A person with enough money to pay off the family of his murdered victim, in many instances would walk free under Shariah law.

    Great law!

    It should be followed everywhere! Let the rich buy their way out!

  14. #11
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe98 View Post
    Great law!

    It should be followed everywhere! Let the rich buy their way out!
    You say that like it is impossible for the rich to get away with murder under non-Shariah law.

    Have you seen how much top flight lawyers charge? Do you know why they're top flight? Because they fight tooth-and-nail to get what their clients want and succeed.

    Don't be naive, please. Also, you don't appear to have studied Sharia in its entirety, so it's unfair for you to judge it.

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
    Also, you don't appear to have studied Sharia in its entirety, so it's unfair for you to judge it.

    Then please have the original poster amend his post so that it agrees with your understanding.

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Hadith si vahy-revelation from Allah s.v.t. Stop reading submission-org, theyre hadith deniers;
    Laith Doory youre hardlu muslim, atleast be honest and dont lie and say youre a christian or whatever man, I mean its laughable to read what you have said here-
    it is written in a dialect some 200 years older than the time of Mohammed and was therefore not fully understood even by his contemporaries.
    Whaaaaat are you talking about, have you heard about the dialect of the quraish, even now days quran is understood very well, not to mention then, as it says that quran is revealed in plain arabic.
    Even more of a headache for Islamic scholars than the interpretation of the Qur’an is the authenticity of the Hadith, which were not even transcribed by Mohammed
    Again what are you talking about; what headache, and transcribed by Muhamed? He peace be upon him (as muslim shoud say o socalled muslim) was unlettered so we dont expect to be written by him in the first place, theyre learned by heart by the companions as the quran was, one hadith tells us that Abu Hurayra r.a. was advised about learning HADITH (it was easy for Abu Hurayra) during nights, and instead of praying night prayer as they used to do, Abu Hurayra was advised to pray salah el Duha, and other hadith, so what are you talkin about, i dont know, dont use the old christian tricks man, theyre old....
    The question therefore should not be whether or not Islam has degenerated - for what purpose would serve the Mahdi - but in what way has it degenerated?
    Again man, go read the hadith and what the scholars say about the mahdi, he WILL not BE a MESSENGER OR A PROPHET OF GOD, so there will not be reformation of quran and sunnah, he will be a simple muslim; as Jesus peace be upon him will be when he returns, he will not be a MESSENGER OR PROPHET, just a simple muslim ruler who follows the shariah and messengership of Muhammed a.s. because the messengership of Jesus a.s. has passed and was for that time and people;;;; so dont mix apple with beens
    A case in point is the question of stoning. Stoning was originally a Jewish practice that was outlawed by Jesus. Stones are everywhere in Palestine, but a rare commodity in the desert of Arabia and often have to be brought in specially by Saudi officials for stoning events.
    This is getting worse... stoning being banned by Jesus a.s.; as if he didnt say in the bible I did not come to abolish the law...; and the so-called muslim now is becoming a geologist now and telling us there are NOT ENOUGH STONES IN SAUDI ARABIA...You should go out more often...
    On the contrary, according to the Qur’an, Islam is the most tolerant of all religions. Under Shariah law, punishments are to be used sparingly and any conviction requires 4 witnesses of unblemished character. A person with enough money to pay off the family of his murdered victim, in many instances would walk free under Shariah law. The onus is on the reform of the individual rather than on punishment.
    And now the so-called muslim is turning to sarcasm, and lying about the shariah...well done...
    Can the Hadiths that advocate stoning be accepted as authentic when they go against the spirit of the Qur'an? The explanation that the passage in the Qur’an that outlined such punishments was eaten by a goat seems rather lame to modern eyes.
    Yes modern times where you dont know what are you talking about. Whats the name of the goat, o 'muslim' scholar and where did you read that, tell us the goat herders
    TO ALL ADMINS STOP LETTING PEOPLE LIE ABOUT THEIR FAITH IN THEIR PROFILE AND BANN THEM, ALSO BAN THE NONMULSIMS WHO TRASH ISLAM IN THIS FORUM

  17. #14
    muthenna's Avatar
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    We had these guys on Paltalk rooms the same tricks posing as muslims, mostly form the arab kuffar are copts who have deep hatred of Islam and muslims AND THEYRE ON THIS FORUM LOOKING FOR TROUBLE.
    The same with bismikallahuma forum, they trash Islam and no action by the admins.
    Last edited by muthenna; 04-03-2007 at 08:00 AM.

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    - Qatada -'s Avatar
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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?




    Can you give us some more info muthenna inshaa Allaah we can look into this.

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laith Al-Doory

    There is no mention of stoning as a punishment in the Qur’an.

    The explanation that the passage in the Qur’an that outlined such punishments was eaten by a goat seems rather lame to modern eyes.

    This post was made a week ago and nobody has refuted it.

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    This post was made a week ago and nobody has refuted it.
    Thats my anger Joe the nonmuslim stupid propaganda against Islam goes irrefuted, not just in this forum but in many places. Every muslim can see that this so called muslim Leith isnt muslim, with such obvious ignorance of Islam and using the tricks of antiIslam junkies from the web.
    Aleykum Selam, brothers I just would like to say that when you see sarcastic speech against Islam and muslims, slandering Islam and saying the most stupid ignorant things about Islam then you know this person isnt muslim, same thing happens often in paltlak islamic rooms, the kaffirs especially arab speaking copts, who tend to know some things about Islam, but are cought elhamdulilah by muslim brothers in simple matters such a trick question ex.How many rakat has wodoo (ablution)? and they cant answer.
    THE MOST IMPORTANT thing is that they come to these forums not to seek guidance or sincere discussion, but to attack the NEW MUSLIMS ESPECIALLY, SO BEWARE INSHALLAH. As my advice dont tolerate the kuffar trash Islam as they dont tolerate us brothers, not one bit.
    Selam Alejkum we rahmetullah, Allahu alam
    Last edited by muthenna; 04-03-2007 at 11:02 PM.

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    Re: Has Islam degenerated over time?

    Greetings,

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe98 View Post
    This post was made a week ago and nobody has refuted it.
    Perhaps you missed my post, where I said that it is mentioned in the hadeeth - something doesn't have to be mentioned in the Qur'an for it to be part of Islam, as we have the hadeeth aswell.

    The bit about the goat eating the page is absurd - we believe that every letter of the Qur'an has been preserved as Allaah (swt) Himself promised to protect it.

    muthenna,

    Jazakallahu khayr for your advice - we are aware that people will sometimes pose as Muslims to try and attack Islam. However, we usually give people a chance and try not to judge too quickly as we have nothing to lose by answering their questions. If we see that they have no desire to learn and are ignoring us, then we will take the appropriate action Insha'Allaah.
    Has Islam degenerated over time?





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