× Register Login What's New! Contact us
Page 2 of 2 First 1 2
Results 21 to 40 of 40

Thread: To The Death

  1. #1
    Array Asyur an-Nagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    on the gurney
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    481
    Threads
    7
    Reputation
    1007
    Rep Power
    81

    To The Death (OP)


    This is written by John Lloyd (title: To the Death, at www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree). And hey, i found my 'dearest' friend Hei Gou there and John Lloyd is HeiGou's new hero I just want to see some opinons about this. thanks.

    TO THE DEATH
    The competing explanations for a resort to terrorism are many, but you can more or less group them round two poles.

    One of these was vividly expressed in the Guardian last Saturday by Karen Armstrong. Tony Blair had been wrong, she said, to call for moderate Muslims to act and speak out more decisively against radical Islamists. He had missed the point: all Muslims, moderate or radical, were deeply stirred by the sufferings of their co-religionists in Guantánamo, Abu Ghraib, Iraq and Palestine, and the "strong emphasis placed by Islam on justice and community solidarity" made this a religious issue.

    "It is disingenuous of Tony Blair," she wrote, "to separate the rising tide of 'Islamism' from his unpopular foreign policy, particularly when Palestinians are being subjected to new dangers in Gaza."

    This pole is defined, roughly, by the belief that it is the west's, or America's, fault that radical Islamists are violent. While violence may be wrong - Armstrong certainly believes that - it takes its root and justifies itself in its own eyes in the empathy with the victims of, and anger with, the West's actions.

    The other pole has been evoked, at least as vividly, by an ex-Muslim, now a non-believer: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somalian-born Dutch MP whose apostasy (as many of her former co-religionists saw it) and outspoken criticisms of Islam earned her death threats and police protection. Further, a campaign against her in the Netherlands mounted by some elements in the left saw her temporarily stripped of her citizenship, a move that was the main cause of the collapse of the country's centre-right coalition last month.

    Hirsi Ali has written a book (The Caged Virgin: A Muslim Woman's Cry for Reason) arguing that the position of women in Muslim societies and communities is one of largely unrelieved oppression tolerated and even encouraged by their own families. She writes: "Most Muslim families regard violence against women as something that women themselves provoke because they don't follow the rules. The family and social environment do not disapprove of it."
    In an appearance on BBC Radio 4.s Start the Week programme on Monday, Hirsi Ali said: "Muslim women must remain virgins, and are confined to their houses; they are beaten; they can be murdered in honour killings and suffer mutilation." She criticised the western states for "not standing up for their values"; for not appealing to Muslims on the basis of their intelligence and reason but rather excusing their excesses on the basis of tolerance.

    In Hirsi Ali's view, the driver of Muslim intolerance is Islam itself, both in its traditions, and in its new (in existence for the past half century or more) radical form, that of Islamism. This ideology has been fashioned in the past few decades, by such figures as the Pakistani Abu Ala Mawdudi and the Egyptians Hasan al-Banna, Sayyid Qutb, and Ayman al-Zawahiri. The first of these was the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, the next two were executed at different times by the Egyptian authorities and the third became the main adviser to the Saudi Osama bin Laden.

    These men based their teachings on an interpretation - they would claim a strict and literal interpretation - of the Qur'an and Islamic law, as transmitted by the great scholars. Ala Mawdudi, for example, begins his essay on apostasy with the flat statement:

    To everyone acquainted with Islamic law it is no secret that according to Islam the punishment for a Muslim who turns to kufr (infidelity, blasphemy) is execution ... The whole of our religious literature clearly testifies that ambiguity about the matter of the apostate's execution never existed among Muslims. The expositions of the Prophet, the Rightly-Guided Caliphs (Khulafa'-i Rashidun), the great Companions (Sahaba) of the Prophet, their Followers (Tabi'un), the leaders among the mujahids and, following them, the doctors of the sharia of every century are available on record. All these collectively will assure you that from the time of the Prophet to the present day one injunction only has been continuously and uninterruptedly operative and that no room whatever remains to suggest that perhaps the punishment of the apostate is not execution".


    Hassan al-Banna was even more categorical: "It is the nature of Islam," he wrote, "to dominate, not to be dominated; to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet."

    This, Hirsi believes, is the basis of radical Islamism: an ideology that sought to pit it directly and violently against the other religions, especially the other monotheistic religions of Christianity and Judaism.

    Radical Islamism, on this reading, does indeed, find rationales for its hatred of the west: in the existence and actions of Israel, in the actions of the US/the west in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, and in the scandals of Guantánamo and Abu Ghraib. But these are not the fundamental reasons, any more than the effects of the Versailles treaty "created" Nazism, or the assistance given to the Whites by the British and the French after the Russian revolution "caused" the Bolsheviks to hate cosmopolitanism and democracy.

    In a wonderful just-published, piece of reportage on the development of al-Qaeda, The Looming Tower, the New Yorker writer Lawrence Wright gives due weight to the ideology, a necessary compliment to the tenacious dedication of these men to the bloody cause they created. In a fine passage, he writes of Qutb that: :

    His extraordinary project, which is still emerging, was to take apart the entire political and philosophical structure of modernity and return Islam to its unpolluted origins. For him, that was a state of divine oneness, the complete unity of God and humanity. Separation of the sacred and the secular, state and religion, science and theology, mind and spirit - these were the hallmarks of modernity, which had captured the west. But Islam could not abide such divisions. In Islam, he believed, divinity could not be diminished without being destroyed. Islam was total and uncompromising. It was God's final word. Muslims had forgotten this in their enchantment with the west. Only by restoring Islam to the centre of their lives, their laws, and their government could Muslims hope to recapture their rightful place as the dominant culture in the world. That was their duty, not only to themselves but to God.


    I am with Hirsi Ali on this. As I argued in a piece on Ken Loach's film The Wind that Shakes the Barley on Cif two weeks ago, ideology - uncompromising, appealing to purity of thought and action, murderous - is required to give real or imagined wrongs a framework, a cause and both a battle cry and a battle order. You must fight for something as well as against something. And one of the most powerful of such ideologies has been, in very different forms, an appeal to oneness: oneness of nation and ethnos (Nazism); one-ness of class and party (communism) and oneness of faith, state and thought (Islamism).

    The ability to dehumanise large tracts of fellow human beings, because they are non-Aryan, or bourgeois, or non-Muslim, lends great strength to the cause: strength enough to cause adherents to gladly murder, and willingly die, for it.
    To The Death

    to you your religion and to me my religion
    may we all learn on our chosen paths, and in all things, blessed be


    the patients sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because the dentists stand ready to do violence on their behalf

  2. #21
    Muezzin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    10,763
    Threads
    180
    Reputation
    67506
    Rep Power
    131
    Likes (Given)
    575
    Likes (Received)
    820

    Re: To The Death

    Report bad ads?

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    to boil it down a bit more:
    the main thing i am curious about what do the muslim members think of making a distinction between "traditional islam" and its "radical form - islamism."
    do you think it is a completely false distinction?
    thanks.
    It's not an entirely false distinction, provided it is understood on the basis that such beliefs stem from a particular mindset, rather than a particular religious rule book. Bad mindsets lead certain Muslims to grossly misinterpret Quranic verses and Ahadith in order to further their own agendas. The fault lies with the subject (the individual) rather than the object (the teachings).

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    Saying that Islamic society is not flawless - but no other society is - is not an argument against criticism, it's just a apathetic state of mind, lazy bones! I'm not going to excuse rising inequalities in life expectancy in the UK - just because Iran executes gay teenagers and I think that's worse. Hope
    Yes, but comparing one system's perceived strengths with another system's perceived weaknesses is fundamentally unfair. I'm not saying Muslims should do nothing to improve our flaws.

  3. Report bad ads?
  4. #22
    Keltoi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    5,061
    Threads
    20
    Reputation
    9283
    Rep Power
    90
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian View Post
    Those hatred towards the Jews in Islam is only focused on the bad Jews... not the good Jews..... (majority of them are good)
    Who decides who is a good Jew and who decides who is a bad Jew?
    To The Death

    "Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."

  5. #23
    Skywalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    443
    Threads
    25
    Reputation
    1952
    Rep Power
    79
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    Hmm. It doesn't fill me full of confidence that "you discussed it on another thread and decided that most apostates are not to be killed, only some that meet certain criteria".
    Then perhaps reading through the thread to its conclusion could be more enlightening. Most people read the first post (mine ) and are automatically interested in the thread. But if you want a quick summary, here's the deal. Apostates do not and never did get killed for simply changing their religion or adopting a new belief. This is a personal choice, and if a religion other than Islam is what cooks your noodle, then that's your choice to make. The Qur'an explicitly states in many places that nobody can choose your religion for you, and that there is no compulsion in religion, but warns those who turn away from the truth of a punishment in the hereafter.
    The times that apostates ARE threatened with execution is when they publically announce their conversion and go on to say how Islam is such a bad religion, or when they leave the Islamic community and join opposing forces (at times of war). For reasons behind these rulings, see the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    But to address the point of antisemiticism (and I don't think you need the "-"), it's absolutely my understanding that Islam and antisemiticism are linked, so I'd be very hopeful to find out I was wrong. One of the things I will do is read the Koran at some point.
    That would be a good start. It's anti-semitism by the way. And yes, it easy to pick up that feeling, but it's not against Jews in general, just those who are currently causing opression and injustice, namely those in control of the Israel situation, or those who support it. A lot of Jews I know are embarrassed by Israel and their government and stand side by side with Muslims in many positive events and demonstrations. How can we hate someone like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected.
    I don't see what's wrong with this verse. A portion of the Jews at that time transgressed after receiving multiple signs from Allah, and He punished them by turning them to pigs and monkeys. This doesn't talk about today's Jews or Jews in general in the slightest.
    It's actually quite interesting, when you think about it. If you look at the anatomies of both pigs and monkeys, you'll find that they greatly resemble those of humans, both internally and externally...well maybe more internally for pigs. Pig hearts are sometimes even used for transplants into humans. Things like this just make you go "Wow, look at the power of Allah."

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.
    Well if you're not a big fan of capital punishment, chances are you're not going to like that very much. Nevertheless, God says that those who wage war against you or create mischief in tha land (murder, rape, theft, molestation, etc, etc) that they should suffer the punishment for those crimes, which are execution or decapitation depending on the crime. I don't see anything wrong with a criminal paying for his crime, and I personally don't have anything against proper and just Islamic capital punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
    Allah forbid a group of Jews living thousands of years ago from eating certain types of meat becaused they rebelled against Him. I don't see the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    What are the hadiths? Are these not taken so seriously? They appear to include statements like:
    "A Jew will not be found alone with a Muslim without plotting to kill him."
    "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. 'O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"
    Hadiths are sayings of the prophet Mohammed (pbuh), and while a lot of them are authentic, some aren't. The ones you refer to describe some of the events that will happen just before the Day of Judgement, when it is prophecized that some Jews will join the Antichrist in the battle against the believers.

    It sure helps understanding these quotes when you have more Islamic knowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    Plus you know Hirsi Ali is a woman, right, I assume that was just a typo?
    Uh...yeah I fixed that, hehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski
    She came across very well on an interview I heard - very articulate, reflective and reasonable.
    Well going by what I read in the first post and by what Jazzy said, I can't say I'm very encouraged. Perhaps those with limited knowledge of Islam see her that way, but those who know better see her differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
    the main thing i am curious about what do the muslim members think of making a distinction between "traditional islam" and its "radical form - islamism."
    do you think it is a completely false distinction?
    Hmm...this one is tricky. I can't say I really understand the term "Islamism". Is it like Islamic nationalism? All I can tell you is that we as Muslims need to work hard to incorporate the laws and teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah into the 21st century. A re-interpretation of the Qur'an in modern context could help, but it needs to be very well supervised and organised. Islam is not something traditional, but practical, and it needs to be treated as such. I don't know what "radical Islam" is supposed to be, but all I know is that there is a "right Islam" and a "wrong Islam", and each is made clear in the heart of a pure Muslim. How does killing an innocent civilian feel in the heart of any person, a Muslim or a non-Muslim? That's a start...
    Last edited by Skywalker; 04-04-2007 at 02:58 PM.
    To The Death

    I have the best signature on this forum!

  6. #24
    north_malaysian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Penang Island, Malaysia
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    8,215
    Threads
    219
    Reputation
    23971
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by borboski View Post
    Northmalaysian - are you then saying that a good jew actually is a muslim, after all, and there shouldn't be any real difference if there are practicing their faith properly?
    If that good jew converted to Islam... then he is a good Muslim.

    If that good jew remains a practicioner of Judaism ... then he is a good Jew.
    To The Death

    Assalamualaykum... I am back!!

  7. Report bad ads?
  8. #25
    north_malaysian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Penang Island, Malaysia
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    8,215
    Threads
    219
    Reputation
    23971
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltoi View Post
    Who decides who is a good Jew and who decides who is a bad Jew?
    God.
    To The Death

    Assalamualaykum... I am back!!

  9. #26
    snakelegs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    California
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    5,742
    Threads
    110
    Reputation
    28750
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    It's not an entirely false distinction, provided it is understood on the basis that such beliefs stem from a particular mindset, rather than a particular religious rule book. Bad mindsets lead certain Muslims to grossly misinterpret Quranic verses and Ahadith in order to further their own agendas. The fault lies with the subject (the individual) rather than the object (the teachings).
    well said!
    To The Death

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

  10. #27
    snakelegs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    California
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    5,742
    Threads
    110
    Reputation
    28750
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Skywalker View Post
    Hmm...this one is tricky. I can't say I really understand the term "Islamism". Is it like Islamic nationalism? All I can tell you is that we as Muslims need to work hard to incorporate the laws and teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah into the 21st century. A re-interpretation of the Qur'an in modern context could help, but it needs to be very well supervised and organised. Islam is not something traditional, but practical, and it needs to be treated as such. I don't know what "radical Islam" is supposed to be, but all I know is that there is a "right Islam" and a "wrong Islam", and each is made clear in the heart of a pure Muslim. How does killing an innocent civilian feel in the heart of any person, a Muslim or a non-Muslim? That's a start...
    yes, i would agree.
    roughly "islamism" means the kinds of muslims we don't like
    on a more serious note, in recent years there seems to be a growth in the kind of muslims who think stuff like murdering van gogh (and yes, i agree the film was very offensive and was no doubt meant to be) in the name of islam is a religious act.
    so, again (repeating for others to give input on who may not have read it) question is:

    what do the muslim members think of making a distinction between "traditional islam" and its "radical form - islamism."
    do you think it is a completely false distinction?
    To The Death

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

  11. #28
    snakelegs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    California
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    5,742
    Threads
    110
    Reputation
    28750
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian View Post
    God.
    great answer!!!!
    To The Death

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

  12. #29
    north_malaysian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Penang Island, Malaysia
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    8,215
    Threads
    219
    Reputation
    23971
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    great answer!!!!
    that's the best answer I could give... and it's the truth.... kay:

    It's not a mufti or mullah to decide who goes to heaven and who is not....
    To The Death

    Assalamualaykum... I am back!!

  13. Report bad ads?
  14. #30
    borboski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    45
    Threads
    3
    Reputation
    9
    Rep Power
    76
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Re: To The Death

    It isn't "God" though, in practice, is it? It's people. Maybe after you die, but until then it's other people.

    If it's so clear, and I'm relatively pleased with the answer I got - why is antisemiticsm so prevelant in muslim communities? It really is - I recently worked in a muslim school and I was just aghast how bigoted and close minded all the kids were.

    The least you could say is that it is certainly ambigious in the Koran, and from the objective outstander it could well look like your grasping at straws.

    Anyway, I'm pleased it's possible to think you're a muslim and to not hate jews. Hahah, unless you're wrong - you'll be gutted when you die then, eh?

    Another problem was that they all believed a girl had been turned into a fish by god, but that's another story for another day.

  15. #31
    Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Nu Yawk
    Gender
    Female
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    7,220
    Threads
    74
    Reputation
    32298
    Rep Power
    104
    Likes (Given)
    178
    Likes (Received)
    76

    Re: To The Death

    Well if we were taught to hate Jews, then what be the point of Dawah? And I wouldnt have a Jewish friend that I've know all my life! So yea
    To The Death

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*

  16. #32
    Asyur an-Nagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    on the gurney
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    481
    Threads
    7
    Reputation
    1007
    Rep Power
    81
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    Deleted due to Link that has been blocked. it's not porn or images that are offensive. It was just a site where apostates told of their experiences.

    Hmm..

    OK
    what has been deleted or blocked?
    To The Death

    to you your religion and to me my religion
    may we all learn on our chosen paths, and in all things, blessed be


    the patients sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because the dentists stand ready to do violence on their behalf

  17. #33
    snakelegs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    California
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    5,742
    Threads
    110
    Reputation
    28750
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Asyur an-Nagi View Post
    what has been deleted or blocked?
    i think it was a link to one of those sites where ex-muslims talk about how awful islam is. :rolleyes:

    welcome back to your thread. since you began this thread, i would like your opinion.
    from an earlier post of mine:
    roughly "islamism" means the kinds of muslims we don't like.
    on a more serious note, in recent years there seems to be a growth in the kind of muslims who think stuff like murdering van gogh (and yes, i agree the film was very offensive and was no doubt meant to be) in the name of islam is a religious act.
    so, again (repeating for others to give input on who may not have read it) question is:

    what do the muslim members think of making a distinction between "traditional islam" and its "radical form - islamism."
    do you think it is a completely false distinction?
    To The Death

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

  18. #34
    - Qatada -'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ...travelling to the hereafter..
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    11,306
    Threads
    791
    Reputation
    61941
    Rep Power
    129
    Likes (Given)
    18
    Likes (Received)
    507

    Re: To The Death

    Hey snakelegs.


    I hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation.


    roughly "islamism" means the kinds of muslims we don't like.
    on a more serious note, in recent years there seems to be a growth in the kind of muslims who think stuff like murdering van gogh (and yes, i agree the film was very offensive and was no doubt meant to be) in the name of islam is a religious act.

    Murdering van gogh couldn't have been an Islamic practise today since we have no Islamic state, as the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) himself prophecised:

    "The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

    [recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]


    We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.


    According to the hadith, the prophet (peace be upon him) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs and after those caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) will come hereditary leadership (the other Caliphs) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphs yet again inshaa'Allaah (God willing.)



    Therefore if there's no Islamic State, no punishment can be applied upon people like this since there is no Islamic Judge or ruler to apply that ruling upon a certain person.

    And the only way that person can be punished is if they are located within an Islamic State, and since van gogh is in Europe, then how can he get punished for a crime in a land which isn't even under Muslim rule?



    so, again (repeating for others to give input on who may not have read it) question is:

    what do the muslim members think of making a distinction between "traditional islam" and its "radical form - islamism."
    do you think it is a completely false distinction?

    The traditional Islaam is what brought the people out of the dark ages into the freedom we have today. The whole world advanced only when Islaam was applied fully, however when the muslims started taking a pick and mix of their beliefs and laws - then, only then the muslims became weak and helpless. The reason why the muslims had strength was due to the justice, because Allaah loves those who are just. When the muslims became unjust and put Islaam behind their backs, then they lost their authority.


    Here's a good link to check out:
    http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...democracy.html


    And heres a good link which explains how there was so much justice between Muslims and non muslims when the muslims applied Islaam:


    At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp" (Digest, 1973, p. 622), in Cordova

    "there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)


    This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Muslim Spain,

    "thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)


    The society had a literary rather than religious base. Economically their prosperity was unparalleled for centuries. The aristocracy promoted private land ownership and encouraged Jews in banking. There was little or no Muslim prostelyting. Instead, non-believers simply paid an extra tax!

    "Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)


    Muslim Spain and European Culture

    Islamic history

    And Allaah knows best.



    Regards.
    Last edited by - Qatada -; 04-14-2007 at 02:25 PM.

  19. Report bad ads?
  20. #35
    Skywalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    443
    Threads
    25
    Reputation
    1952
    Rep Power
    79
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Re: To The Death

    Just can't get enough of hearing about Muslim Spain

    Someone should make a movie about it...
    To The Death

    I have the best signature on this forum!

  21. #36
    - Qatada -'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    ...travelling to the hereafter..
    Gender
    Male
    Religion
    Islam
    Posts
    11,306
    Threads
    791
    Reputation
    61941
    Rep Power
    129
    Likes (Given)
    18
    Likes (Received)
    507

    Re: To The Death




    Yeah, subhaan Allaah.. the history of Spain [the later part of the Ummayad Khilafah] and Damascus [the earlier part of the Ummayad Khilafah] is really interesting.

  22. #37
    snakelegs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    California
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    5,742
    Threads
    110
    Reputation
    28750
    Rep Power
    102
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah View Post
    Hey snakelegs.


    I hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation.
    of course not. this isn't "my" thread, but i would like it if more muslims responded. i am more interested in comments from muslims than from me or other non-muslims.
    as to the murder of van gogh - i know it was illegal according to shariah for the reasons you mentioned and my guess is that most muslims, though identifying with the anger, viewed it as the crime that it was.
    i only used his murderer as an example of the muslims that think this type of practice of islam is justifiable. for lack of better words, the words "islamist" and "islamism"have been invented. i understand the words to refer to an ideology, as opposed to traditional islam (which condemns the murder of innocents like 9/11, for example). i guess you could say an ideology that uses islam. (as the zionists used judaism for their ideology, for example). in recent years, this ideology has grown and spread in reaction to "the west's" actions.
    do you or other muslim members see a split here in islam between traditional islam and a islam as an ideology? is there much dialogue going on in the muslim world on this subject?
    i think there is a grey area because islam is both a religion and a political system.
    from what you wrote, i gather that you do see a distinction between what the article calls "traditional" islam and "radical" islam, even though the terms are questionable. do you think this distinction is becoming more and more blurred in recent years?
    i would agree that hirsi ali, because she is an apostate, has absolutely no credibility when it somes to the subject of islam, but this doesn't necessarily automatically mean that everything she says is false either.
    i am familar with the history of muslim spain, but i have a question about it - were the rulers practicing muslims or were they more or less secular in outlook?
    your thread on islam and democracy looks interesting - i'll check it out. don't know why you posted it as closed to discussion, tho?
    thanks for replying.


    Murdering van gogh couldn't have been an Islamic practise today since we have no Islamic state, as the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) himself prophecised:

    "The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

    [recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]


    We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.


    According to the hadith, the prophet (peace be upon him) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs and after those caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) will come hereditary leadership (the other Caliphs) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphs yet again inshaa'Allaah (God willing.)



    Therefore if there's no Islamic State, no punishment can be applied upon people like this since there is no Islamic Judge or ruler to apply that ruling upon a certain person.

    And the only way that person can be punished is if they are located within an Islamic State, and since van gogh is in Europe, then how can he get punished for a crime in a land which isn't even under Muslim rule?






    The traditional Islaam is what brought the people out of the dark ages into the freedom we have today. The whole world advanced only when Islaam was applied fully, however when the muslims started taking a pick and mix of their beliefs and laws - then, only then the muslims became weak and helpless. The reason why the muslims had strength was due to the justice, because Allaah loves those who are just. When the muslims became unjust and put Islaam behind their backs, then they lost their authority.


    Here's a good link to check out:
    http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...democracy.html


    And heres a good link which explains how there was so much justice between Muslims and non muslims when the muslims applied Islaam:


    At a time when London was a tiny mud-hut village that "could not boast of a single streetlamp" (Digest, 1973, p. 622), in Cordova

    "there were half a million inhabitants, living in 113,000 houses. There were 700 mosques and 300 public baths spread throughout the city and its twenty-one suburbs. The streets were paved and lit." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)


    This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Muslim Spain,

    "thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38)


    The society had a literary rather than religious base. Economically their prosperity was unparalleled for centuries. The aristocracy promoted private land ownership and encouraged Jews in banking. There was little or no Muslim prostelyting. Instead, non-believers simply paid an extra tax!

    "Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)


    Muslim Spain and European Culture

    Islamic history

    And Allaah knows best.



    Regards.
    To The Death

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

  23. #38
    muthenna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    52
    Threads
    11
    Reputation
    63
    Rep Power
    78
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Re: To The Death

    When does the so called scholar murted kadhab Hirsi Ali teaches us about islam, Asyur an-Nagi if youre muslim, and i doubt, please dont post her filth, shes been disgraced enough by her kuffar protectors, and then she ran off in USA to spread her lies.

  24. #39
    Asyur an-Nagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    on the gurney
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    481
    Threads
    7
    Reputation
    1007
    Rep Power
    81
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    i think it was a link to one of those sites where ex-muslims talk about how awful islam is. :rolleyes:

    welcome back to your thread. since you began this thread, i would like your opinion.
    from an earlier post of mine:
    peace snake, thanks for joining.
    i believe in one islam, the islam that learn from Quran and hadith. but nowadays, people are starting to classify islam into 'peaceful islam', and 'radical islam'. both are just opinions. it is their (non muslims) right to make such thing, since probably they can not see a clear sky between those two.


    there is only one islam. the other forms are merely interpretations toward our deeds (no matter what have triggered us to do so).
    To The Death

    to you your religion and to me my religion
    may we all learn on our chosen paths, and in all things, blessed be


    the patients sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because the dentists stand ready to do violence on their behalf

  25. Report bad ads?
  26. #40
    Asyur an-Nagi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    on the gurney
    Religion
    Unspecified
    Posts
    481
    Threads
    7
    Reputation
    1007
    Rep Power
    81
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Re: To The Death

    Quote Originally Posted by muthenna View Post
    Asyur an-Nagi if youre muslim, and i doubt, please dont post her filth
    i am a muslim. anyway, it is a good question, i believe that we should always know how to doubt

    but muthenna,
    the best way to stand level-- face to face --toward people who hates, dislikes, or disgrace us, is by learning their background and their mental state toward us. hate is something nurtured by failures on knowing each other.

    thanks for joining this thread
    To The Death

    to you your religion and to me my religion
    may we all learn on our chosen paths, and in all things, blessed be


    the patients sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because the dentists stand ready to do violence on their behalf


  27. Hide
Page 2 of 2 First 1 2
Hey there! To The Death Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. To The Death
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Death of a God?
    By barney in forum World Affairs
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 10-25-2008, 03:20 PM
  2. ur msg before death...
    By truemuslim in forum General
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-15-2008, 04:09 PM
  3. Replies: 60
    Last Post: 07-28-2007, 01:09 AM
  4. Death
    By Bittersteel in forum Miscellaneous
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-19-2006, 04:54 PM
  5. The Effects of Death on those Left Behind: In Light of the Death of Shaykh Badee-ud-D
    By madeenahsh in forum Islamic History and Biographies
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-19-2006, 04:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
create