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Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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    salam all, a missionary has alleged that the Quran and hadiths contradic each other and are confusing regarding the punishment of sexual immorality. however so there is no confusion, nor contradiction, just ignorance on his part:

    http://muslim-responses.com/The_Puni...al_Immorality_

    the article was written in response to him and could be helpful for muslims who got abit confused dealing with this matter.

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari View Post
    salam all, a missionary has alleged that the Quran and hadiths contradic each other and are confusing regarding the punishment of sexual immorality. however so there is no confusion, nor contradiction, just ignorance on his part:

    http://muslim-responses.com/The_Puni...al_Immorality_

    the article was written in response to him and could be helpful for muslims who got abit confused dealing with this matter.
    Assalaamo Alaikum:
    Is this not true that in the Holy Quran the Aya is
    الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ
    (24:2) The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes
    ??
    There is no distinction in the Quran whether these are married or unmarried
    while Ahaadeeths do differentiate between them and punishment of Zina is different for both.
    Married = Rajm
    Unmarried = Stripes.

    Ahadeeth from Sahih Bukhari are :
    Volumn 009, Book 092, Hadith Number 424B.
    Narated By Narrated Ibn 'Abbas : I used to teach Qur'an to 'Abdur-Rahman bin Auf. When Umar performed his last Hajj, 'Abdur-Rahman said (to me) at Mina, "Would that you had seen Chief of the believers today! A man came to him and said, "So-and-so has said, "If Chief of the Believers died, we will give the oath of allegiance to such-and-such person,' 'Umar said, 'I will get up tonight and warn those who want to usurp the people's rights.' I said, 'Do not do so, for the season (of Hajj) gathers the riffraff mob who will form the majority of your audience, and I am afraid that they will not understand (the meaning of) your saying properly and may spread (an incorrect statement) everywhere. You should wait till we reach Medina, the place of migration and the place of the Sunna (the Prophet's Traditions). There you will meet the companions of Allah's Apostle from the Muhajirin and the Ansar who will understand your statement and place it in its proper position' 'Umar said, 'By Allah, I shall do so the first time I stand (to address the people) in Medina.' When we reached Medina, 'Umar (in a Friday Khutba-sermon) said, "No doubt, Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed to him the Book (Qur'an), and among what was revealed, was the Verse of Ar-Rajm (stoning adulterers to death).'" (See Hadith No. 817,Vol. 8)


    Volumn 008, Book 082, Hadith Number 817.
    -----------------------------------------
    Narated By Ibn 'Abbas : I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Auf. While I was in his house at Mina, and he was with 'Umar bin Al-Khattab during 'Umar's last Hajj, Abdur-Rahman came to me and said, "Would that you had seen the man who came today to the Chief of the Believers ('Umar), saying, 'O Chief of the Believers! What do you think about so-and-so who says, 'If 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person, as by Allah, the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr was nothing but a prompt sudden action which got established afterwards.' 'Umar became angry and then said, 'Allah willing, I will stand before the people tonight and warn them against those people who want to deprive the others of their rights (the question of ruler-ship)."

    'Abdur-Rahman said, "I said, 'O Chief of the believers! Do not do that, for the season of Hajj gathers the riff-raff and the rubble, and it will be they who will gather around you when you stand to address the people. And I am afraid that you will get up and say something, and some people will spread your statement and may not say what you have actually said and may not understand its meaning, and may interpret it incorrectly, so you should wait till you reach Medina, as it is the place of emigration and the place of Prophet's Traditions, and there you can come in touch with the learned and noble people, and tell them your ideas with confidence; and the learned people will understand your statement and put it in its proper place.' On that, 'Umar said, 'By Allah! Allah willing, I will do this in the first speech I will deliver before the people in Medina."

    Ibn Abbas added: We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa'id bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was touching his knee, and after a short while 'Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him coming towards us, I said to Said bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail "Today 'Umar will say such a thing as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Said denied my statement with astonishment and said, "What thing do you expect 'Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

    In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the call-makers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.
    I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.' (O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.

    And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa'da. 'Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr. I said to Abu Bakr, 'Let's go to these Ansari brothers of ours.' So we set out seeking them, and when we approached them, two pious men of theirs met us and informed us of the final decision of the Ansar, and said, 'O group of Muhajirin (emigrants) ! Where are you going?' We replied, 'We are going to these Ansari brothers of ours.' They said to us, 'You shouldn't go near them. Carry out whatever we have already decided.' I said, 'By Allah, we will go to them.' And so we proceeded until we reached them at the shed of Bani Sa'da. Behold! There was a man sitting amongst them and wrapped in something. I asked, 'Who is that man?' They said, 'He is Sa'd bin 'Ubada.' I asked, 'What is wrong with him?' They said, 'He is sick.' After we sat for a while, the Ansar's speaker said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and praising Allah as He deserved, he added, 'To proceed, we are Allah's Ansar (helpers) and the majority of the Muslim army, while you, the emigrants, are a small group and some people among you came with the intention of preventing us from practicing this matter (of caliphate) and depriving us of it.'

    When the speaker had finished, I intended to speak as I had prepared a speech which I liked and which I wanted to deliver in the presence of Abu Bakr, and I used to avoid provoking him. So, when I wanted to speak, Abu Bakr said, 'Wait a while.' I disliked to make him angry. So Abu Bakr himself gave a speech, and he was wiser and more patient than I. By Allah, he never missed a sentence that I liked in my own prepared speech, but he said the like of it or better than it spontaneously. After a pause he said, 'O Ansar! You deserve all (the qualities that you have attributed to yourselves, but this question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish as they are the best of the Arabs as regards descent and home, and I am pleased to suggest that you choose either of these two men, so take the oath of allegiance to either of them as you wish. And then Abu Bakr held my hand and Abu Ubada bin Abdullah's hand who was sitting amongst us. I hated nothing of what he had said except that proposal, for by Allah, I would rather have my neck chopped off as expiator for a sin than become the ruler of a nation, one of whose members is Abu Bakr, unless at the time of my death my own-self suggests something I don't feel at present.'

    And then one of the Ansar said, 'I am the pillar on which the camel with a skin disease (eczema) rubs itself to satisfy the itching (i.e., I am a noble), and I am as a high class palm tree! O Quraish. There should be one ruler from us and one from you.'

    Then there was a hue and cry among the gathering and their voices rose so that I was afraid there might be great disagreement, so I said, 'O Abu Bakr! Hold your hand out.' He held his hand out and I pledged allegiance to him, and then all the emigrants gave the Pledge of allegiance and so did the Ansar afterwards. And so we became victorious over Sa'd bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' Umar added, "By Allah, apart from the great tragedy that had happened to us (i.e. the death of the Prophet), there was no greater problem than the allegiance pledged to Abu Bakr because we were afraid that if we left the people, they might give the Pledge of allegiance after us to one of their men, in which case we would have given them our consent for something against our real wish, or would have opposed them and caused great trouble. So if any person gives the Pledge of allegiance to somebody (to become a Caliph) without consulting the other Muslims, then the one he has selected should not be granted allegiance, lest both of them should be killed."


    Best of luck
    Last edited by asadxyz; 06-06-2007 at 09:22 PM. Reason: Hadeeth Reference:
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    yes the Quran makes no distinction, however the sunna does, and Allah tells us to follow the sunnah, and the prophet himself commanded us to do so, and Allah also tells us obey the prophet, hence there is no problem in that.

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    asadxyz's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari View Post
    yes the Quran makes no distinction, however the sunna does, and Allah tells us to follow the sunnah, and the prophet himself commanded us to do so, and Allah also tells us obey the prophet, hence there is no problem in that.
    Assalaamo Alaikum:
    Probably I could not understand you properly.What I deduct from your post is that :
    If there is contradiction between Quran and Sunna ,then we should follow Sunna not Quran .
    Am I right to understand your point of view??
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    ws wr wb!

    there is no contradiction, the sunna simply added another ruling and went into more specifics, that now the people of adultery would be stoned. there is no contradiction, the sunna is essentially from Allah and blessed by Allah because the prophet cant make rulings without Allah's permission, blessing, and will.

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    The Quran made no distinction, the sunnah did, is the sunnah wrong? no, because Allah tells us the Sunnah is true, hence the Sunnah cant be false, or else Allah wouldnt tell us to follow a corupt thing now would he?

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    asadxyz's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari View Post
    ws wr wb!

    there is no contradiction, the sunna simply added another ruling and went into more specifics, that now the people of adultery would be stoned. there is no contradiction, the sunna is essentially from Allah and blessed by Allah because the prophet cant make rulings without Allah's permission, blessing, and will.
    Assalaamo Alaikum:
    I agree Sunna is also based on Wahi.
    But my Question still stays there .If there is contradiction between Quran and Sunna(more specifically narrations) then which to adopt.Naturally two contradictory things cannot be adopted at one time.
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    if the sunnah somehow contradicts the Quran, and all scholars agree it does, and thats its not based on a mis-understanding of the sunnah text and that we did not interpret it wrongly, then offcourse we will choose the Quran first.

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Asslaamo Alaikum
    Thanks a lot you have removed one supicion from my mind.
    Btw :What do you mean by all shcholars?? Have all scholars ever agreed even on the way of offering prayers which is performed five times a day?? Not to speak of rare instances
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    by all scholars i mean majority, now yes some differ as to regards to pray, but they are minor, and neither say the other is incorrect. but its not on what scholars agree on the sunnah, im saying if they state that a certain text of the sunnah contradicts the Quran then we would use Quran first. and there are many instances where this happen, specifically for hadiths where all major scholars agree that certain hadiths are weak, and fabricated.

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari View Post
    by all scholars i mean majority, now yes some differ as to regards to pray, but they are minor, and neither say the other is incorrect. but its not on what scholars agree on the sunnah, im saying if they state that a certain text of the sunnah contradicts the Quran then we would use Quran first. and there are many instances where this happen, specifically for hadiths where all major scholars agree that certain hadiths are weak, and fabricated.
    Thanks a lot that is correct approach.
    So what do you think what Hazrat Umar said about Ayat Rajam that it is a verse of Kitabullah?
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    well there are 2 opinions, one is:

    abrogation of the verse, but not the ruling, i.e. the recitation is abrogated however the ruling remains.

    a second opinion is that Umar actually was saying that indeed no such verse exists in the Quran, and later on muslims in the future would use this as an excuse to not sanction stoning, lo and behold this is EXACTLY whats happening today, muslims say stoning isnt the way because its not in the Quran!

    i am of opinion 2 because there is a hadith i cant find it now! which does back up that of opinion 2. ill get it tommorow when i find it with further info for opinion 2.

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    format_quote Originally Posted by Sami Zaatari View Post
    well there are 2 opinions, one is:

    abrogation of the verse, but not the ruling, i.e. the recitation is abrogated however the ruling remains.

    a second opinion is that Umar actually was saying that indeed no such verse exists in the Quran, and later on muslims in the future would use this as an excuse to not sanction stoning, lo and behold this is EXACTLY whats happening today, muslims say stoning isnt the way because its not in the Quran!

    i am of opinion 2 because there is a hadith i cant find it now! which does back up that of opinion 2. ill get it tommorow when i find it with further info for opinion 2.
    Assalaamo Alaikum:
    His exact words in one of narration which I qouted in my initial post are:
    Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.
    There is no doubt ,according to this narration that it was verse of the Holy Quran.
    What was the reason for stopping its recitation??
    Those Ayas whose order is abrogated are present.
    But This Aya which was dealing with life and death of a person that was put from the most authenticated source on which there is complete consensus of Muslim Umma (Holy Quran) to that collection which might be debatable to one group or the other.
    Is there any information that this Aya was intentionally kept away or by mistake it could not be added (If this this narration of Hazrat Umar is correct).
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Who can be more irrational than those who say: Design is possible without a designer ??

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    For those who havnt seen a stoning of a fornicator. Here is a clip of what it's like. Be warned though, it's not pretty. Dont click the link if you are offended by stoning.

    Having said that, It's I think vital that people who support stoning know what it involves.

    http://www.filecabi.net/video/horrific-stone.html

    The quality is terrible.

    This one is hosted by the anti-iran womens site.
    http://noiri.blogspot.com/
    Its about halfway down the page on the left
    The video is one originally put on the net by a group hostile to islam, and so for the first few seconds shows a picture of a skull and "Islam in action". It also refers to surahs where the prophet indicated stoning as a punishment.
    It also sarcastically shows the words "Religion of peace"

    If you close your eyes for the first 20 seconds, you'll miss that and so wont be insulted by the references. But open them afterwards because then you will know,(if youve never seen a stoning, or only seen one from the back of a crowd), what the fate of Fornicators is.
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    The first link was not stoning...

    I don't think most people need to see a stoning just to know how horrible it is.

    Certainly isn't as bad as an eternity as hell though is it.

    By the way, stoning is the punishment for adultery, not fornicators.
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    wwwislamicboardcom - Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    format_quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    If you close your eyes for the first 20 seconds, you'll miss that and so wont be insulted by the references. But open them afterwards because then you will know,(if youve never seen a stoning, or only seen one from the back of a crowd), what the fate of Fornicators is.

    I am glad that you mentioned the fate of fornicators and not the fate of innocent people.

    Islam does have strict rule of evidence, you know, and it's not so easy to convict people without beyond reasonable doubt.
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication




    Oh yeah, remember when there was that vid of that girl who became muslim and her family stoned her in iraq? They harmed her and threw stones at her head too.. i heard that's not part of the Islamic practise, i think i read it in Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And Allaah knows best.

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    When I first saw a video of stoning, it was poor quality but boy it made me cry, pretty scary. Sure would stop me from commiting adultery. I hope I never get stones, insha'Allah.
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    Assalaam Alaikum
    What do you people think about this narration that Aya Rajm was a verse of Kitabullah??
    Best of luck
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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    Re: Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight View Post
    I am glad that you mentioned the fate of fornicators and not the fate of innocent people.

    Islam does have strict rule of evidence, you know, and it's not so easy to convict people without beyond reasonable doubt.
    Knight. Did you watch the video link? If so, then did you consider the 15 minuites of bloody violence a just punishment for the girls, exacting allahs justice? Or just a pack of animals showing Human nature,(actually male nature) at its worst?
    Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

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