Quran is corrupt , please help me refute

I would have thought that, in practice, the opposite is true.

Nobody would deny the Bible is important, yet it is frequently subjected to criticism here on the grounds that people have messed with it in order to ensure it was their own opinion on disputed theological matters that was included. Were it not important, they would not have worried about it, or messed with it.

Well, you think importance was given to Bible, but not really. Bc if it would have been given importance and preserved it, then there wouldn't be needed a Qur'an , but since in our beliefs, bible has been corrupted , Qur'an was sent .

I see the way you see the word "given importance". But that importance was not and is not enough for the bible to be preserved. That's why most of bible contains information which from our view is not correct .
I mean just think of this,
We can't touch Qur'an in arabic without having wudu. . Or we can't recite Qur'an while we are in state of Junub (after sexual relationship). I've been criticized in the mosque , why?, because I was sitting behind the place where Imam prays, and after I read Qur'an, I just placed it on (small tables on the ground that hold Qur'an), and pushed it in front of me, and guess what? they told me to put it somewhere else, not do leave behind someone's back (bum), since it is not a sign of respect for Allah's book to do that.

What i'm trying to show, is just how much we give importance to Qur'an, that for somebody the above examples would look stupid.

Do christians give such importance to bible? I mean just recently in the name of translation they changed all the content of Bible where it talks about Jews, so the verses do not call them as criminals, but describe them as just not good people. A polite descreption of jews. (don't want to offend any christian) How am I supposed to think that importance is given to that book?

Why not? Generally eloquence and good style assists in avoiding contradictions, not creating them.

It's not possible to write something of the Qur'anic style or fashion. These ideas of "I can write something like Qur'an" comes due to the lack of knowledge. It's like when kids say to a real scientist , "yeah I can do it", but the only thing the scientist can do is just laugh, bc he knows the kid will not be able to do such thing. If you would read about the style of Qur'an u would see that it's not possible to come up with something like its style.

please check this link (maybe you have already done it, but anyways i'm pasting it again)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...acle/ijaz.html

I guess I should ask why do you think that the Koran is unchanged?
Is it due to man or god? If it is because of god then why did god not keep his message pure with his prior prophets? I have a couple questions.
Do the original texts actually exists or are there just copies? How many times of Chinese whispering occurred before it was written down？ What about the non Koran bits, the hadiths etc..

And now to a posts.


1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.


How can the message be universal if it cant be translated perfectly? Why must you have scholars tell you what it means? Why do so many disagree with it? And your last sentence seems to be untrue. Please support it.

-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
It does not seem practical and seems illogical in many instances.


-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
No it doesn’t, if it did you would not need hadiths would you? And even those are not.

-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
nope.

-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
It is so clear you have to have scholars tell you what it means.

-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
Deep? So is shakespear. The bible etc…. deepness does not a holy book make.


2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive,
Evidence? Ive read it and got no such interaction.

-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
Except it is not.

-it is Memorizable;
Wow just like the abcs, the bible, shakespear, the princes bride, etc…

-its Language, ..
Wow its soo cool god could not translate it perfectly inot other languages and even modern speakers have to have scholars tell them what it means.

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.

The current version perhaps. Do you have the originals? And what about prior to it being written down? How many Chinese whispers did it go through?

-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, ….
This has been discussed to death, but to sum it up. There is no special knowledge in the Koran, any actual knowledge was known at the time. Anything else is reading what is not there.


-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
Evidence? John smith also had it revealed. Same with jesus. What about the religion of the GFSM? Scientology? Buddhism ect…

Hi Malaikah

Firstly, God promised to preserve it.
How do you know this? Because the koran says so? Thats like using the bible to prove the bible.

Secondly, preservation can also be seen on the human level in terms of the strictness of the rules used to compiled it. Not to mention the whole thing has been memorised by hundreds if not thousands. The original copy is the one that was complied by the most trusted of the Prophets companions, with a few years of his death. We still have that copy.

I think my biggest issue is with before it being written down "same issue with the hadiths". Anything could have happened before. And where can you find the original koran? Who can view it? Has it been varified by unbiased sources?


So "Chinese whispers" is no problem at all since they would have all learned the Quran from the same source.

But what about before it was written down?

Some of the rules used for compilations:
1. There must exists a written copy written down by the Prophets official scribes in front of the Prophet himself.
2. There must be at least two people who can witness to knowing the verse.
I forgot the rest of the conditions.

And who was there to verify they verified it? After all it took a while to write this book.





Because He never promised to, nor did He intend to.
So why the change ? And how do you know he didnt lie?

double posts

format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2

Hi Malaikah

How do you know this? Because the koran says so? Thats like using the bible to prove the bible.

You can refer to this link:

The authenticity of the Qur'an and the Bible
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

I think my biggest issue is with before it being written down "same issue with the hadiths". Anything could have happened before. And where can you find the original koran? Who can view it? Has it been varified by unbiased sources?

In the Topkapi, Museum of Turkey today

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html

Check any copy of Qur'an in the world and you'll see that it matches the one stated above exactly; word by word, letter by letter.

But what about before it was written down?

1. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).


3. Qur’an copied on one common material

The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post738055

And who was there to verify they verified it? After all it took a while to write this book.

It was the companions of Allaah's Messenger themselves, since they were alive while the Qur'an was compiled.

So why the change ?

It was the duty of the scholars and knowledgable of the Previous nations to preserve their texts since they didn't have to call other people to it anyway. I.e. the revelation was for their specific nation, and another Prophet would be sent to another nation.

However, Allaah sent His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) to all of humanity. This meant that the message had to be spread (yet no-one could be forced to follow Islaam - [Qur'an 2: 256 - There is no compulsion in religion.] So Allaah preserved the Qur'an for us, but our duty would be to convey the message clearly to mankind.

And how do you know he didnt lie?

God only does what Befits His Majesty, so He doesn't lie.




Regards.

Hi Qatada ,
You seem to be missing my point. Yes you have version of the quran that you are told is the original. At best it is the original written form. Prior to that you only have the word of others that what is written is what was said or occured. How many years did it take for it to be written?
And your argument the koran is perfect because god says so is very poor.
what if, god lied. what if god never said it. what if god doesnt exists. what if mohammad lied.. etc... once again your essentially using circular logic. Just like many christians.

"How do you know the bible is true?
Becuase it was written by god.
how do you know this?
the bible says so."

You seem to be missing my point. Yes you have version of the quran that you are told is the original. At best it is the original written form. Prior to that you only have the word of others that what is written is what was said or occured. How many years did it take for it to be written?
And your argument the koran is perfect because god says so is very poor.
what if, god lied. what if god never said it. what if god doesnt exists. what if mohammad lied.. etc... once again your essentially using circular logic. Just like many christians.

Bc we have already showed proof which tell that Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah (but bc u don't accept them that's a different thing), so after we prove that , whatever Qur'an says, we believe it. There is no point for someone who comes up with new math theory in geometry, to start making independent proof. It's stupidity. Basically the mathematician uses the previous theories proved like Pythagorean theorem, why? bc that was proved once, so u just use it to prove other ones. Same is with what Qur'an or authenticated hadiths say, we have proved Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah, so whatever he says, our proof is "Muhammed saws said so".

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb

Bc we have already showed proof which tell that Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah (but bc u don't accept them that's a different thing), so after we prove that , whatever Qur'an says, we believe it. There is no point for someone who comes up with new math theory in geometry, to start making independent proof. It's stupidity. Basically the mathematician uses the previous theories proved like Pythagorean theorem, why? bc that was proved once, so u just use it to prove other ones. Same is with what Qur'an or authenticated hadiths say, we have proved Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah, so whatever he says, our proof is "Muhammed saws said so".

You have given poor evidence. We want good evidence. Showing that your god exits wouldnt hurt. Providing evidence wouldnt hurt either.

You have given poor evidence. We want good evidence. Showing that your god exits wouldnt hurt. Providing evidence wouldnt hurt either.

We did, and they are not poor. but as I said bc you don't accept them , that is a different things. We showed u proof in every single field of our life, (backing up by scientists, psychologists, historians etc.) u still kept on discarding them. And there is no need to repeat them over again, bc there are many threads in this forum that talk about such thing, u just need to search and read.

Providing evidence wouldnt hurt either.

If you are referring this to evidence to prove God by using your senses, then actually what makes human a degree above animals, is the believing in the unseen, cuz all animals believe only what they can feel/see with their senses, but we humans are more intelligent, and it's shame if you say that we can't say there is a God bc we can't see or hear or touch him.

Qur'an was sent with its all proofs, you just need to search on forum,
but just by looking at the universe, without Qur'an or anything else, your intelligence should be high enough to see that there must be a creator.

If you want anything, PM me.

We did, and they are not poor.

I assure you, that much of the academic world would not consider it proof, although good points have been brought up in both sides of this debate.

I assure you, that much of the academic world would not consider it proof, although good points have been brought up in both sides of this debate.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you ignorant or have you lost your bicycle?

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you ignorant or have you lost your bicycle?

I have no idea what I am talking about dear vpb? Very well, label me as whatever your heart desires. It makes no difference, and certainly does not change any facts.

You have shown us no acceptable evidence. "stop using the word proof, nothing can be proven except math"

What did you show us? That their are scientitst and others that are islamic? What evidnce is that? That there are people that are scientists and such?

And evidnce of your god. Give us some. You will be a rich man if youi give some good proof instead of using the " i dont understand this so god must exists argument"
Quran no proof of any god. It is evidence that someone wrote it, perhaps many people. It is not a prefect work. It has contradictions and bad science among other things.
Your argument seems to be, i know the quran is the word of god cause it says so.

Yep, you're right.