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Islam and Apostasy

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    Re: apostates (OP)


    EDIT: This post has been moved to the beginning of the thread.


    In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:
    1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

    2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
    10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?


    Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

    47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

    51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

    29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.


    Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

    2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

    3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

    4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.
    So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

    From another of my posts:
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
    format_quote Originally Posted by blunderbus View Post
    If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?
    As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

    First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

    If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.


    _______

    Material from this post has been added to this article:
    http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Islamicboy View Post
    1 then why do american troops take refuge status in canada after leaving there post?
    Because they don't want to do their pathetic five months in jail for going AWOL or whatever the military imposes. Mostly they want to live in Canada I think.

    2 we are not at war excuse me what is Iraq? i thought this is war on terror is it not?
    We as in the Muslim world and the Kafir world. The Americans are not at war either but that is a different argument. You all divide the world into Muslims and non-Muslims, say that the former are at war with the latter, and then you complain because people behave accordingly?

    4 ofcourse a religion is not as same as country yet leaving american military seems to be more server den leaving Islam.
    They execute you in Islam. They don't even bother to come find you, most of the time, in the American Army. How is it more severe?

    5 We cannot execute someone without teaching them islam and after we show islam to any person its impossible for them to still reject but if they still do then we execute them.
    Big of you. I understand the process.

    I will not compromise Islam becuase the kuffar cannot except it ok and bro lets not forget even the non muslims knowing this islam is still the fastest growing religion on earth today Alhumdillaah Allaahuakbar.
    I would not want you to compromise your religion. Islam is not the fastest growing religion in the world today.
    Islam and Apostasy

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    ok bro lets just stop this right now you are not willing to understand you reject the truth And yes islam is the fastest growing religion today alhumdillaah

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Islamicboy View Post
    ok bro lets just stop this right now you are not willing to understand you reject the truth And yes islam is the fastest growing religion today alhumdillaah
    Jedi has gone from nothing to a statistically significant religion in the last few years. Wicca is growing at a huge rate. 30 years ago Falun Gong did not exist. It now claims 100 million members. Islam is not the fastest growing religion.

    I understand. I have no problems understanding. Your arguments are just not very good ones.
    Islam and Apostasy

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    First of we are right now off topic and our debate is becoming pointless
    o yeah muslims are 1.5 billion alhumdillaah

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Truth_Seeker View Post
    You say it's often taken out of context, but then why do soo many scholars have so many disagreements about this, surely Qur'an and Islam is clear
    I've already explained the correct understanding in my last post.

    So what is your view on the case in Afghanistan, should he have been tried, is he rebelling and comitting treason?
    It is the duty of the Islamic state to do what is in the best interests for their country. In this case, the man was already a Non-Muslim before entering the country, he did not publically renounce the faith within the country, and he did not pose a threat to the state. On the contrary, by attempting to try him in court, more harm was done to the Muslims not just in Afghanistan, but across the globe. The Islamic state must always be cognizant of the far-reaching consequences of its actions. We find in the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh that their were some people who were known by the Prophet pbuh and the companions to be hypocrties and when they committed an act of treason, the companions suggested that they be executed but the Prophet Muhammad pbuh refused because he knew that the harm of killing them would be far greater than the harm they could cause, as he said, I do not want people to say that Muhammad is killing his own companions. So he was always concious of how others would see the actions taken by the state.

    now it is quite clear here that it doesn't mention anything about the context, it simply says kill him.
    Brother, I already explained this in my post; the other ahadith and historical narrations clarify this for us.
    I thought Islam was clear, but yet there are always these different opinions
    Islam is not unclear, if you read the information I posted you would see that this issue has been clarified by other information.
    Now come on this is such a biased view, what about the other reason that they simply did not think it was the truth, and honestly thought another way of life was better
    Brother, in the history of Islam there has not been a single knowledgeable Muslim who has left Islam.
    Number 1, of course it's going to become public. If they are not seen to be praying, fasting or all this other stuff and instead start going to church, just simply following fundamentals of another religion, then it's bound to become public.
    As for praying and fasting, the acts of worship are not an outward aspect - no one is with you all the time to know if you are fasting or praying. As for attending the church or other religious practices, I pointed out the flaw in reasonign when one says, on one hand, that religioin is a private personal affair that should be free of state interference. and then on the other hand suggest that one needs to practice their religion publicly as part of a greater community. You cannot use both arguments at the same time - if you believe that religion is a public and communal affair, then it does fall under state jurisdiction. If you believe it is a private and personal affair, then it does not.

    What if their arguments stand firm, and they logically answer everything thrown at them.
    There is not a single attack against Islam which has not been refuted. In my experience of debating, every single allegation I see has already been answered before.

    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    They execute you in Islam. They don't even bother to come find you, most of the time, in the American Army. How is it more severe?

    Just because they don't bother finding you doesn't alter the fact that they are supposed to.
    Besides remember what the Americans did to John Walker when he 'apostated' from the Americans side? They didn't kill him they tortured him and shamed him publicly by shaving off his beard and so on to set an example to anyone else.
    When someone joins the army, they sign a contract in which they are fully aware of the consequences of apostating. By accepting Islam you are making a contract with God. If you accept Islam as the truth you are under obligation to live by its laws. So you see Bro it's the persons own fault and a religious contract is much stronger than a man-made one.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha Rana View Post
    Just because they don't bother finding you doesn't alter the fact that they are supposed to.
    Just because there is a penalty for deserting the US and another for apostacy from Islam doesn't alter the fact that the two are nothing alike.

    Besides remember what the Americans did to John Walker when he 'apostated' from the Americans side? They didn't kill him they tortured him and shamed him publicly by shaving off his beard and so on to set an example to anyone else.
    I am sorry? John Walker was caught fighting, with gun in hand, the American Army after not renouncing his American citizenship. A clear case of treason. And what did they do with him - not execute him that's for sure? He shaved off his beard on orders of his lawyer. What example? Americans do not think of that as a shameful thing and so would not be deterred.

    When someone joins the army, they sign a contract in which they are fully aware of the consequences of apostating. By accepting Islam you are making a contract with God. If you accept Islam as the truth you are under obligation to live by its laws. So you see Bro it's the persons own fault and a religious contract is much stronger than a man-made one.
    Actually that is not the case. Only in a few places are you obligated to live under Islamic laws. Nor do most Muslims voluntarily sign up for anything. They are born into the faith. They do not make a clear adult decision to join. It is not my fault if I belong to the religion of my parents.
    Islam and Apostasy

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    "we show islam to any person its impossible for them to still reject but if they still do then we execute them."

    LOL LOL what a concept lol.

    Good Grief.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Hi Nimrod,
    Have you read the explanation I've given on apostasy?
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Brother's, Sisters of every faith and non-faith.

    I am going attemp an article on apostasy where I can ost here and keep one for future reference. Any further argument for it and agaist it will be helpfull.
    Any primary sources will also be helpfull.

    Thank You.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Here's a question,
    1. If their is no compulsion in Islam, than is it the same thing if a person is compelled to remain in his faith an act of compulsion?

    2. How would you justify, supposing in a christan country who has a same law for apostasy, which this is evident in the bible, for exacting the same punishment for a person leaving christianity for Islam?

    Peace be upon you!

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Skillganon,
    Both your questions have already been answered in this thread, in this post:
    http://www.islamicboard.com/232188-post29.html

    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    Skillganon,
    Both your questions have already been answered in this thread, in this post:
    http://www.islamicboard.com/232188-post29.html

    Thank's. I will ask more Question's
    Last edited by Skillganon; 04-02-2006 at 02:18 AM.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Ansar Al-'Adl yes I read your link. I had read it before when you posted it.
    I am doing my best to understand Islam and a person should read links provided by a peoples he is trying to understand.

    What I found wrong about the information contained in the link is first and fore-most:

    "Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion".

    That statement is so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

    HOW does a Muslim child objectively study Islam and then decide to become what his parents hope he becomes, a Muslim?????????

    HOW does an adult objectively decide on Islam when other choices are suppressed?????

    A lack of compulsion is ONLY given when all opposing points of view are given without any reprisials<sp> and protected by the state.

    No, on this issue modern Islam loses.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Hello Nimrod,
    Thanks for your post.
    format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod View Post
    What I found wrong about the information contained in the link is first and fore-most:

    "Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion".
    I was referring here to people who convert into the religion as opposed to those who were already raised as Muslims. But even in the latter case one is supposed to study their religion and embrace it for themselves, not because their parents were Muslims, but because they sincerely believe it to be the truth.

    There are many Muslims living in Non-Muslim countries who were raised as Muslims but if they chose not to follow Islam anymore, no one could stop them. But there has never been any knowledgeable Muslim who has done that.

    Regards
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Assalamu-alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu

    Perfect answer Brother, nice to see it's settled. And remember nimrod it is only after the age of maturity that a person is accountable for his/her deeds by which time they have enough sense to judge right and wrong for themselves.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    There are many Muslims living in Non-Muslim countries who were raised as Muslims but if they chose not to follow Islam anymore, no one could stop them. But there has never been any knowledgeable Muslim who has done that.
    I think that depends on what you mean by "knowledgeable". Patrick Sookhdeo is a British-based Christian who was born in Guyana, and I think studied at an Islamic school, but converted. He is now what you might call Islamophobic.
    Islam and Apostasy

    Le coeur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connait pas. - Blaise Pascal

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou View Post
    I think that depends on what you mean by "knowledgeable". Patrick Sookhdeo is a British-based Christian who was born in Guyana, and I think studied at an Islamic school, but converted.
    I'm talking about an educated Muslim who has more than an elementary school education on Islam. If Sookhdeo is the best example you can give me, than my point is well-established. There are [unfortunately] many kids who immigrate with their families to a non-muslim country and lose their religion; Sookhdeo was only 10 years old when he came to England, and by the time he was in his twenties he had lost his religion completely. Having a fourth grade education is not what I meant when I said, "knowledgeable Muslim". And someone who believes that the Qur'an openly commands Muslims to slaughter all Christians and Jews is no better than the ignorant racists who spout such hateful drivel on the internet.
    He is now what you might call Islamophobic.
    An understatement, if I ever saw one.

    Regards
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Ansar Al-'Adl somehow I highly suspect that the Muslim growing up in Saudi Arabia isn't given an equal opportunity to study the Christianity faith un-impeded.

    How about Afghanistan?

    I will bet you $100 to $1 that if Islam was restricted in those two countries like the Christian faith is, you would NOT be standing by what you have posted.

    I know…..what is going on in those countries isn’t Islam…. I have read it time and time again.

    It is real life though, would you agree, that until there is a truly Islamic (according to your definition of Islam) State, that there should be a ban on any killing of converts from Islam?

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Hi Nimrod,
    Thanks for your post.

    format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod View Post
    Ansar Al-'Adl somehow I highly suspect that the Muslim growing up in Saudi Arabia isn't given an equal opportunity to study the Christianity faith un-impeded.

    How about Afghanistan?
    I'm sure you understand that I have no interest in discussing, much less defending, what goes on in this Muslim country or that Muslim country. I am only interested in expounding the true teachings of Islam as given in the Qur'an and Sunnah.

    As far as studying other religions is concerned, there has always been a large motivation for Muslims to study comparative religion since Muslim scholars till today have always been very active in dialoguing and debating with people of other faiths.

    It is real life though, would you agree, that until there is a truly Islamic (according to your definition of Islam) State, that there should be a ban on any killing of converts from Islam?
    I would agree that the punishment for apostasy should only be done within the parameters of the Shari'ah law, which would eliminate any problems.

    However, I would also agree with you that there is a serious need for reform amongst Muslim countries in order to better implement the Islamic laws. How we go about reforming is quite a large topic of discussion beyond the scope of the current thread, but the key point here is education.

    Peace
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.


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