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Islam and Apostasy

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    Re: apostates (OP)


    EDIT: This post has been moved to the beginning of the thread.


    In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:
    1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

    2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
    10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?


    Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

    47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

    51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

    29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.


    Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

    2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

    3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

    4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.
    So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

    From another of my posts:
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
    format_quote Originally Posted by blunderbus View Post
    If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?
    As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

    First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

    If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.


    _______

    Material from this post has been added to this article:
    http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

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    Hello Snakelegs,
    format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    i readily admit i am ignorant about shariah. my point was not about the shariah but about how these laws get implemented in the real world.
    Right.
    i'm not sure if i understand your point about preferring the term "abadoned" instead of "abused".
    You said that the laws were easily abused which implies that they can be misused or they provide loopholes, etc. Either way it indicates some flaw with the statement of the law. My position was that the law simply is not being followed correctly, it is being abandoned. This does not reflect negatively on the law at all.
    i get the impression that you use the word "hearsay" to discount any opinion expressed by either muslims or non-muslim that doesn't conform to your views.
    I think that's an unfair generalization. I use the word 'hearsay' to encourage muslims and non-muslims to move beyond the steretypes they recieve in the media and actively seek to promote understanding in the diverse world in which we live.

    Regards
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Syed Nizam View Post
    Sis Noora,

    Correct me if i'm wrong. I taught that there is no such terms such as "modern muslim" or "conservative muslim". There are but only one muslim.. & that means the submission to Allah. We might not shared the same view on some issues but i'm certained that our beliefs & our convictions nevertheless are just the same.

    May Allah blessed us in this life & the hereafter. Ameeen.
    Bro Nizam,

    Salam

    I think u did notice that I said (so called) n put modern muslims between ""..I personally dont belive that there r such, there is only One Quranand One prophet. I said that sarcasticly, some ppl like to claim themselves as "modern muslims" n attack Islam.

    I know this is off topic, sorry.

    Wassalam
    Islam and Apostasy

    A Muslim Paradise is not a place of arrival, but a way of Travellin

  5. #143
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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl View Post
    Hello Snakelegs,

    Right.

    You said that the laws were easily abused which implies that they can be misused or they provide loopholes, etc. Either way it indicates some flaw with the statement of the law. My position was that the law simply is not being followed correctly, it is being abandoned. This does not reflect negatively on the law at all.

    i'm not sure we disagree but are using different words. when i say that a certain law is easily abused i agree this does not mean that the law itself is flawed (that's above my head) - just that it is often abused in practice, as is the case with the blasphemy laws in pakistan. i wasn't implying anything about shariah one way or the other - i don't even know the wording or the context in the shariah. i'm sure i would disagree with many aspects of the shariah, but after all, i am not a muslim. a law could be 100% just but people can find ways to misuse it or abuse it.

    I think that's an unfair generalization. I use the word 'hearsay' to encourage muslims and non-muslims to move beyond the steretypes they recieve in the media and actively seek to promote understanding in the diverse world in which we live.

    Regards
    ok.
    Islam and Apostasy

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority
    image06 1 - Islam and Apostasy

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Ansar Al-‘Adl, I have waited several days to reply to this because I know my reply is off topic to a degree. I didn’t want to chance sidetracking the thread.

    You stated “I think we need to combat these stereotypes and help westerners understand that the problem is with some Muslims, not with Islam, and then we can all take steps towards eradicating the problems in the Muslim world”.

    I have to say that I think you, along with a large portion of the Islamic world, are trying to put the cart before the horse.

    Wouldn’t it be great if the common news item contained reports of actions taken by, the common, Muslims against those who abuse Islamic teachings (Such as Bin Ladin)?

    If Islam spent more time on the underlined, there would be much less of the other. One of these days a smart Muslim will realize that the Western world doesn’t hate Islam (As long as you keep it on your own shores); it hates what those who abuse Islamic teachings do. Then we will have a common enemy.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    BTW, I do have a problem with any religion that allows one faith to be more promoted than another by the state and then teaches that anyone who converts away from the state promoted religion/faith is to be put to death.

    Thanks
    Nimrod

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod View Post
    BTW, I do have a problem with any religion that allows one faith to be more promoted than another by the state and then teaches that anyone who converts away from the state promoted religion/faith is to be put to death.

    Thanks
    Nimrod
    hey!-in the west you are put to death if you 'apostate' from the army!
    you have to fulfill ur contract-well i think the 'contract' you make with God is much more important than in an army...

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Salam
    I dont think that rally in London was such a good idea. As the sister said, there were other things we could have done (du'a, sabr). If anything, the rally caused chaos for commuters that day and this will give a more negative view of islam and muslims in the UK.
    Why should we demand an apology from the danes? we know they don't like us. We are muslims. They will never like us untill we accept their way of life.
    May Allah guide us all
    Wassalam

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by marge1 View Post
    hey!-in the west you are put to death if you 'apostate' from the army!
    You do?
    Can I ask you where in the west this happens?

    Thanks.
    Islam and Apostasy

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Islam and Apostasy

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Peace
    I've never heard of it myself, but maybe s/he was talking about the times during WW1 and WW2. Cowardice was punishable by death

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Assalamu alaikumwa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu

    Yeah and not just the West loads of other places. Russia definitely and Marge1 can give you a nice list since the question was addressed to her. Hee hee.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Yep. In WW1 British soldiers were shot because they had breakdowns due to the fear of the war. They didn't run away and scream they started to shiver and cry and if killing them isn't inhuman then what is?

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha Rana View Post
    Yep. In WW1 British soldiers were shot because they had breakdowns due to the fear of the war. They didn't run away and scream they started to shiver and cry and if killing them isn't inhuman then what is?
    Yes, in a war situation these things happen. I guess it's the only way to keep a losing army from disbanding.
    Not that I agree with it!
    In times of war the whole world goes mad!

    Peace.
    Islam and Apostasy

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Islam and Apostasy

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu

    Their mental state is now referred to as shell-shock.
    In Russia in 1918 the following orders were given to the Red Army by Trotsky:
    Every scoundrel who incites anyone to retreat, to desert, or not to fulfil a military order, will be shot.
    Every soldier of the Red Army who voluntarily deserts his post will be shot.
    Every soldier who throws away his rifal will be shot.


    Harsh way of putting it don't you agree?

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha Rana View Post

    Harsh way of putting it don't you agree?
    Definitely.

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha Rana View Post
    Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu

    Their mental state is now referred to as shell-shock.
    In Russia in 1918 the following orders were given to the Red Army by Trotsky:
    Every scoundrel who incites anyone to retreat, to desert, or not to fulfil a military order, will be shot.
    Every soldier of the Red Army who voluntarily deserts his post will be shot.
    Every soldier who throws away his rifal will be shot.


    Harsh way of putting it don't you agree?
    Yes.
    Islam and Apostasy

    Peace
    glocandle ani 1 - Islam and Apostasy

    Here I stand.
    I can do no other.
    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]


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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    For some odd reason the last 5 pages of this thread were transferred to a new thread: "Factors in Loosing (misspelled) Faith"

    So if anyone wants to follow up the continuation of the discussion please go there.

    Sharvy

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    Greetings,
    format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha Rana View Post
    Yep. In WW1 British soldiers were shot because they had breakdowns due to the fear of the war. They didn't run away and scream they started to shiver and cry and if killing them isn't inhuman then what is?
    I'm not sure about this. I know soldiers could be shot for desertion, but for shell shock? Many soldiers suffering from shell shock (or neurasthenia as it was known to doctors) got taken to Craiglockhart Military Hospital in Edinburgh for treatment.

    Peace

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    Re: Islam and Apostasy

    no sectarian articles - please refer to the first post for the correct understanding of this issue.

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    Imam Abu Haneefah on Apostasy



    Why did he think that females are to be spared? Female adulterers and murderers should be put to death in an Islamic State right?

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    Re: Imam Abu Haneefah on Apostasy

    format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah View Post


    Why did [Imam Abu Hanifa] think that females are to be spared? Female adulterers and murderers should be put to death in an Islamic State right?
    It stems from the understanding that this punishment is in reality a punishment for the protection and preservation of society. The Islamic state takes action against those who pose a threat to the security of the state, and Imam Abu Hanifah held that a woman was unlikely to pose such a threat. As such, he compared the apostate woman to the originally disbelieving woman. (Ibn Rushd, Bidayatul Mujtahid [Eng. Trans.], vol 2. p. 552)
    a female apostate is not liable to the death penalty since she is not in any position to fight against Islam (Sarakhsi, Masbut vol. 10, pp. 108-110)
    Whatever the case, others have stated otherwise. Please refer to the following to articles for a better understanding of this issue:
    Narration 7

    Apostasy and Islam
    Islam and Apostasy

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
    "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]


    Visit Ansâr Al-'Adl's personal page HERE.
    Excellent resources on Islam listed HERE.


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