There are many factors to look at. One of the most important is the way marriage is handled in Islam.
A woman can not marry without the permission of her Wali. It is the responsibility of the Wali to act in the best interest of the woman and to protect her from all harm.
It is quite obvious that in todays world it would be a very unusual situation for a wali to come to the conclusion that marriage for a 6 year old would be in her best interest.
It is a wali's duty to learn all that is necessary to protect any woman under his care. If necessary that would also mean learning about the health of women.
The Qur'an is written to serve the people of all times. Allah(swt) knows that there are changes in people from generation to generation but the Qur'an is written so that all rules will apply for all generations.
although it may be permissable for a 6 year old girl to be married, No where is it mandatory and if it will be harmful to the girl then the wali is obligated to stop it.
Health wise people have changed in differrent countries at different time periods. At the time of the prophet the average life span was probably 30 it was essential that people have children as soon as possible if people were to survive as a people. Later that was increased and it was not essential for people to have children at such a young age. Then the dark ages hit and once again life spans were very short and there was only a short time frame for reproduction. Today life spans are very long compared to the past. A womans child bearing years cover a very long time frame. The need to have children at the ealiest possible age is not there.
The rules have not changed, the wali is still there and the wali still has the duty to protect the woman. Today in most areas it is for the benefit of the woman that a wali would seek for his charge to marry at an age older then 6, 9, or whatever. It all depends on what is best for the specific woman.
You have to question where do you draw the line? Pictures of classes from primary school show women standing in between rows of children, then you find out they are not the teachers but kids! A female colleague at work said she stopped growing when she was 11, she became her adult figure.
In terms of exploitation, it can happen whether she is 9, 19 or 29, families can be blackmailed into giving their daughters away.
Protection? The girl's guardian is meant to be her protector and look after her interests. But this is Earth, not heaven, Islam is not going to send angels down to protect people, so sometimes things aren't perfect and girl's get abused. But in the afterlife, those that escaped punishment on Earth will get what they deserve.
Islam is flexible, it doesn't say woman have to be married by X years, so different cultures can set when they think it is appropriate to marry off their daughters. In some cultures, where there is poverty and disease, life expectancy is like 40, marrying and having kids ASAP is a survival strategy.
It is quite obvious that in todays world it would be a very unusual situation for a wali to come to the conclusion that marriage for a 6 year old would be in her best interest.
I completely agree with this, and I'm glad to see that Muslims do not think its really appropriate for a 6 year old to get married, in today world.
So can I conclude that marriage between a 9 year old and 50 year would can only take place if it is in the girl's best interest (as determined by her wali) and with her approval? And since if there is medical literature that states these pregnancies at a young age can be harmful to woman, the Wali needs to take that into account. However, it was permissible because there might be circumstances (such as shorter life spans and extreme poverty) in which it is in her best interest to be married very young?
Can I ask if the Imam in the community has any say in this matter? For example, if she has father who is abusive, can an Imam "overrule" a wali?
Eeas - These are really great points. I was thinking to myself that someone could argue that the fact that men have to work really hard while women just stay in the house watching TV is oppressive to men.
I think its a balance, just as peope have been given free will to decide whether they are going to pray or not, also in certain areas we have been give guidance but it is upto us to impliment it.
format_quote Originally Posted by chris4336
Awhile back I saw this article in the NY Times and it really had an impact on me:
Ghulam Haider, 11, is to be married to Faiz Mohammed, 40. She had hoped to be a teacher but was forced to quit her classes when she became engaged.
She was forced to quit classes, is that Islamic? I wonder, to me this clearly shows that these men are not acting according to Islam, they could not give two hoots of what Islam allows! Here's more proof, very disturbing!
Look, to accept the poor girl as a GAMBLING DEBT, what the! To me this clearly shows that these people are not looking at Islam, further more, these people seem to not care about what Islam teaches.
This totally to me, shows that men will do anything, whether they are muslims or christians or what ever, Islam allows multiple marriage and marriage to young women but it does put restrictions! These peopel are gambling, something fundamentally wrong in Islaam, so to me it totally shows the problem is not Islaam, the problem is the Men.
format_quote Originally Posted by chris4336
Now I understand your point that these conditions are the result of poverty. So we should rightly blame the poverty that forced these girls into this situation. Do you feel sorry for these girls at all? And do you wish that maybe Islam had something to protect them?
Islam does protect them, you know about the charity systems in Islam and what the poor are meanto be given, I do feel sorry for young women who are forced into marriages because they cant afford anything else. Of course, that is why I do insha'Allah plan on adopting some of those unfourtunate people, because I do believe that people should not be forced into things, Islam does protect them, but if Islam is not implimented then how can it protect them??
Can we say, 'Oh man I wish Islam would protect them' when the people are not actually practising Islam? If they did they would be protected, again this falls under the free choice of mankind and the fact that this world is a test.
format_quote Originally Posted by chris4336
I guess the issue that I wasn't looking at was that given the option between life on the street and prostitution and marrying an older man at 9, clearly the older man would be the lesser of two evils. We don't often make these decisions in the west, thank god, and they are very hard ones to look at. But are these really the only options God can offer these girls?
Again, why does God allow cancer, why is it some people are raped, why are some imprisoned? I mean some of those are things humans don't have control of.
Whether a mother has the choice between her daughter prostituting or being married, is something we as humans can change, we can give the mother a third option, and if we did all as humans impliment Islaam, marriage out of poverty would not happen because of Zakar and Charity, but mankind chooses to GAMBLE, get drunk and turn the blind eye to those suffering.
Remember Chris, who you are and where you are.
Eesa.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Also, you guys have to understand, that Non-Muslims people are looking to Islam to provide them some moral guidance. From my personal experience, every single marriage I have read about between a very young girl has involved exploitation of that girl. Every single Muslim I asked in my country said they would not let there 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old man. And then when we read "Yes, Islam does support these marriages, in fact the its an example of the Prophet" its very very hard to understand. Its also very hard for me to come up with a situation where this would be in the girls best interest.
I'm sure there are many reasons why the US and Europe, and many other countries in the world have ages of the consent above 9. There are reasons why Muslims even will agree that marriage at the age of 9 probably is not appropriate in today's society. There are reasons why you probably would have some doubts before you gave our 9 year old daughter away in marriage to a 50 year old. So I think its the responsibility of Muslims to provide explanation of why this is allowed and how the girls will be protected, and NOT the responsibility of NonMuslims to just accept it as something thats permissible, do you see what I mean? Because its cleary not something that NonMuslims and Muslims alike will find acceptable outside of specific circumstances.
Also, you guys have to understand, that Non-Muslims people are looking to Islam to provide them some moral guidance. From my personal experience, every single marriage I have read about between a very young girl has involved exploitation of that girl. Every single Muslim I asked in my country said they would not let there 9 year old daughter marry a 50 year old man. And then when we read "Yes, Islam does support these marriages, in fact the its an example of the Prophet" its very very hard to understand. Its also very hard for me to come up with a situation where this would be in the girls best interest.
We do understand, me personally, am not saying that it's something easy to accept, many of us have gone through the same questioning, we didn't just wake up on Sunday as a Muslim and say 'Wife get the 9 year old, we need to marry her off' of course not.
format_quote Originally Posted by chris4336
I'm sure there are many reasons why the US and Europe, and many other countries in the world have ages of the consent above 9. There are reasons why Muslims even will agree that marriage at the age of 9 probably is not appropriate in today's society. There are reasons why you probably would have some doubts before you gave our 9 year old daughter away in marriage to a 50 year old. So I think its the responsibility of Muslims to provide explanation of why this is allowed and how the girls will be protected, and NOT the responsibility of NonMuslims to just accept it as something thats permissible, do you see what I mean? Because its cleary not something that NonMuslims and Muslims alike will find acceptable outside of specific circumstances.
You know my view, that we as humans are shaped by our society and influences, what we might feel is wrong, might be seen as ok in other places, because of the upbringing and ingrained views. The example of the acceptance of homosexuality over the years is a good one. When people hear a 50 year old married a 9 year old, what we imagine is simple, its a picture alot of us naturally, because of our society and stuff like that, concuct in our mind. A small fragile girl, not ready for a reletionship, not sure of anything, who would rather be at school and playing with make up and watching CBBC or something, thats our view. But rather, the 9 year old, should be different from this, the mentality is different, they way they would be brought up would be different, marriage would be something stressed significantly, there wouldn't be an education system like we have now, something which indirectly tells us the maturity of our children, all those factors which cause us to picture a 9 year old would be totally different in a different time and place.
Eesa, I hope you do see that we, or at least I do understand your questions and views.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Right you guys certainly are doing that and I really appreciate that.
Do you think that Muslims who believe its wrong for a 9 year old to be married to a 50 year old in modern society are, in a way, going against their Prophet and their religion? Didn't Islam say that it would be applicable for all time?
Right you guys certainly are doing that and I really appreciate that.
Do you think that Muslims who believe its wrong for a 9 year old to be married to a 50 year old in modern society are, in a way, going against their Prophet and their religion? Didn't Islam say that it would be applicable for all time?
There is nothing going against the Prophet(pbuh) and it is applicable for all time. Because something is permitted does not equate with it has to be done.
There is much placed on our duty to protect women. If something will bring harm to a woman that is stated as being haram and that is not permitted under any circumstances. To marry a young girl. The conditions of marriage do require it does not harm the girl. The Wali is responsible to see to that.
All that means is if circumstances arise were it it beneficial for a young girl to marry, it is permitted.
Marriage places some very strict requirements on a Wali and a husband. If those restrictions are followed, it is virtualy impossible for a woman to be harmed by marriage.
But, humans are humans and in every faith you will find those who think they have found loopholes that allow them to use the rules for their own purpose.
Right you guys certainly are doing that and I really appreciate that.
Do you think that Muslims who believe its wrong for a 9 year old to be married to a 50 year old in modern society are, in a way, going against their Prophet and their religion?
No not at all, you see, I remember IbnAbdul Hakim said it, I asked him, would you marry your daughter to a man at so and so age and he said something like 'if it was the prophet i would'
Roughly, that there is the mindstate of alot of Muslims, you see in our times girls at 9 are brought up totally different to the way they were so long ago, although in some countries we can still see the major difference in upbringing of girls compared to the west. It is that difference that causes the girl to mentally mature at different ages.
So these parents and Muslims are not against marrying their daughters off, full stop. They are against marrying their daughters off because of the prevalant conditions.
Now days, most 9 year old are not brought up in a mind state of marriage at a young age, many are influenced by society, the school system is an example which, am sure you agree, plays a part in classifying maturity in alot of cases.
That is one factor of Muslim Parent's outlook.
Another is the fact that most men now days would not marry a young woman, because they are not familier with such costums. Rather, what we see is that people who in general now days are practicising the costum of having a young bride, are in alot of cases not fully practicing.
So those to me are two factors which constitute the Muslim Parent outlook.
If those factors were removed and some others then alot of Muslim Parents should not have problems with it. To sum up, if we had:
A girl mentally prepared and brought up to understand that marriage is a normal part of life and not something to be done later on, but rather a blessings which will offer support for her and produce many beautiful things.
And
Righteous examples, like the Prophet, or Sahaba, and those were the type of men considered for marriage, i.e. that we did not naturally associate, exploitation, abuse, force, and negative aspects, with a man and a young wife
I believe if those two key factors were here, we'd see alot of beautiful marriages. But at a time when Muslims struggle to stand up and strive on their own, then how can we expect them to carry a family on their back too.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Thank you both for your resposes this has really made the situation much easier to swallow. I am very glad that Islam does not believe it is always appropriate for a 9 year old girl to marry a 50 year old man (haha I first typed it the other way around, which is a very interesting idea) and that the girls well being must be considered above all things.
I am still a bit confused as to how Muslims are to distinguish which parts of the life of the Prophet they are to follow (because I thought the answer was everything, regardless of time period), but I will trust that Muslims will not follow the Prophet at the expense of young girls? I guess I need to study more on the concept of Sunnah. I understand somethings are mandatory while others are permissible, but I thought that you got more rewards for doing more things like the prophet did? Or do you only get rewards for things that are recommended by him?
Thank you both for your resposes this has really made the situation much easier to swallow. I am very glad that Islam does not believe it is always appropriate for a 9 year old girl to marry a 50 year old man (haha I first typed it the other way around, which is a very interesting idea) and that the girls well being must be considered above all things.
I am still a bit confused as to how Muslims are to distinguish which parts of the life of the Prophet they are to follow (because I thought the answer was everything, regardless of time period), but I will trust that Muslims will not follow the Prophet at the expense of young girls? I guess I need to study more on the concept of Sunnah. I understand somethings are mandatory while others are permissible, but I thought that you got more rewards for doing more things like the prophet did? Or do you only get rewards for things that are recommended by him?
I wanted to break this down into bite size chunks but I couldn't.
You need to see something Chris, you said:
I am still a bit confused as to how Muslims are to distinguish which parts of the life of the Prophet they are to follow (because I thought the answer was everything, regardless of time period)
We follow all of the Prophet, peace be upon him, but you see, following the Prophet would mean that we should follow him properly, so ok he married a young woman, we have to take things into account, would marrying a young woman at the same age who is not mentally mature be following the Prophet? Of course now, because if A'isha was not ready he would not have married her, so in following the Prophet, it is not the age that is what we are meanto follow but the maturity of the person. You see what I'm getting at?
but I will trust that Muslims will not follow the Prophet at the expense of young girls?
If we were to follow the Prophet, peace be upon him, then it would not be possible to do so at the expense of the sister, why? Because the happiness of the sister is in itself following him! So if we marry a sister at 9, but she is not mentally ready, i.e. she is unlike A'isha in the mental maturity, then can it be considered that we are following the Prophet's example? I doubt it, because a component of the Prophet's marriage was the welfare of the wife and the happyness of the wife, so it is impossible for a Muslim to say 'Im following the Prophet' if they are actually doing it at the wife's expense.
I hope you understand the view I'm trying to show.
As for your question about what acts of the Prophet, peace be upon him, we get rewarded for, this is something which has been divided into many different things, like, cultural things, religious commands, and other, ask in the Discover Islam area to get an answer Im looking for an article on that now! I read one a while back.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
chris4336 : If it is prohibited by man made law shouldn't it have been prohibited by religious law that claims to cover all aspects of one's life?
---man made law & medical concepts change from time to time. So, u can't support any medical concept blindly ' 'cause opposite view may be on the way.
Islam does cover all imp matters. Early marriage is not a must , it's a choice . If parent think their daughter is mature enough , if the proposal comes from a respected person whom they knew since long as a good person , if their daughter does not object , they why should other people object ?
chris4336 : what bothers me most about Islamic law is that it gives men so much opportunity to abuse it.
---marriage can take place when 2 parties agree. It's a must that bride also gives her consent . After puberty , a girl is an adult & it's a must to take her permission. If she objects , marriage can't take place.
if she is poor and her parents really encourage this marriage she'll agree
.
----see above. Forced marriage is not allowed in Islam.
I really don't blame the Muslim men who are doing it, they are just trying to do the same as their prophet did.
-----The Last Prophet (p) was a kind hearted excellent husband . If all Muslim men follow his kindness & justice , Muslim women won't face any kind of problem in this earth.
Once the Last Prophet (p) was very angry with all his wives , then guess what he did ? Normally many husbands beat wife mercilessly ( not only Muslims , in the west it's common ,too ) or scold them in a dirty language .
The last Prophet (p) did not do any of these--- he left home & stayed at the mosque for several days. If Muslim men follow his only this example , i guess , there will be no wife abuse or divorce .
there are more women married by the Prophet who were over 16 and 18 why not then do that.......... if she is poor and the parents only agree because of that, then imagine that the marriage option was not there, what would they do?
-----excellent points bro , Jazak Allah. The Last Prophet (p) spent all his youth with an elderly lady who was a widow with 3 ( minimum ) children.
Chris , can u imagine , most women were treated less than animals at that time . It's the Islam who gave women the status of human being.
By marrying a widow , the last Prophet (p) set an example that widows are not sub-human. Among Hindus , widows can't take part in any marriage ceremony . Unfortunately some Muslims also believe that widows must not touch the new bride ......it's against the teaching of Islam.
Its the same as the polygamy thing,
-----In the west , women share husbands with unlimited illegal partners. Islam allows legal polygamy ( maximum 4 wives ) with strict condition that he must be able to do justice.
Marriage is not for fun only......it's a great responsibility....a huge responsibility specially for men as they are the caretakers of their wives. They have to earn & they must spend on wife..........we ( Muslim wives ) don't have to earn , we are Queen at our homes.....we just give orders ...... i need this , i need that.. etc.
chris , we believe in life hereafter . If any aged man after marrying a young virgin abuses her , he will be accountable on the Last Day in front of God Almighty & it's not a funny matter.
I say that from a Non-Muslim point of view that when I am evaluating Islam, I don't compare it with Christianity and Judiasm. I don't have to pick one of these three religions or any religion at all. So its up to Muslims to convince me that Islam is the way God wants us to live. If you are discussing Islam with a Christian or a Jew that is a different story, but when its with a Non-Muslim in general I think you have to build a stronger base than "Well, its better than in that religion."
The same thing with comparing Islam to the West, because no one is making the claim that Western society is perfect. I think there are some pretty horrible things about Western culture, but just because Islam has a different stance on those issues doesn't necessarily mean I agree with Islam's stance.
For example, in my opinon I think its wrong for a western man to have sex with 9 partners. I also think its wrong for Islam to allow a man to have 4 wives. What I think is right (one man for one woman) was not given as an option.
a Muslim woman can divorce her husband ....so , unfortunately if her aged husband does not treat her well , she can go for divorce & re-marry.
Mother Aisha (p) & other wives were given that chance , nobody accepted it. I will try to find the verse no: . it's like that , o prohet , tell ur wives , if they want wealth of this world , then come , let me give u wealth & but if u prefer the life hereafter .......etc.
It was Aisha (p) who first responded that , i prefer the life hereafter. U see , if she was unhappy , surely she could apply her divorce power...she did not do that.
So, don't worry about a happy couple...pl. pray for Muslim women so that our husbands can follow the kindness the Last Prophet (p) showed to his wives.
I also think its wrong for Islam to allow a man to have 4 wives. What I think is right (one man for one woman) was not given as an option.
i will write in details Insha Allah later. a quick reply....Dr. Jamal Bawadi expliained polygamy nicely in his article. If a young man's wife has as accident or sick & she can't perform her duty as a wife ( i guess , i don't have to explain what is it ) , then a non-Muslim man has these options.
1.divorce her
2. live like an unmarried man
3. go for adultery.
Islam gives him & her a chance to live with honour. Husband does not need to divorce his sick/injured wife...but he can re-marry & can enjoy a healthy life. He does not need to neglect his wife or deprive himself .
polygamy is an option for those men who need to do that ....it's not a must.
Yes, I don't deny that Aisha was a very happy woman, my concern was what is being done to protect very young girls from getting into a situation with an older man where they might not be as happily married, and might actually be harmed, but this was very fully explained to me because of the protection a Wali is expected to offer, and that such a marriage should never take place if it is not in the girl's best interest.
And yes, I will certainly pray that Muslim women can find such kindness. Please pray for rme that I will be guided to the truth.
Thanks for the response, there was just a huge thread I started on polygamy on the Marriage section of the board, so I have learned a lot.
I guess my statement is not true, I think its okay to allow four wives, because like you said there might be circumstances that warrant it. I think its wrong to do it without the consent of the first wife, because I see this as a direct contradiction to the Quranic verses which say "Treat your women with kindness." But this is all debated in like 100 threads over on the marriage board.
Thanks for the response, there was just a huge thread I started on polygamy on the Marriage section of the board, so I have learned a lot.
I guess my statement is not true, I think its okay to allow four wives, because like you said there might be circumstances that warrant it. I think its wrong to do it without the consent of the first wife, because I see this as a direct contradiction to the Quranic verses which say "Treat your women with kindness." But this is all debated in like 100 threads over on the marriage board.
Do you agree to some extent though Chris that Islam has provided some guidance, might not be compulsry but guidance to show that man should be kind and that man should make it easy on the wife?
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
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Im looking for an article on that now! I read one a while back.
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