Slave Girls

Salam Brother Ansar and thanks for ur post.

Because you don't understand how Islamic law works. Islamic law isn't solely based on the divinely ordained punishments (hudood). There are also discretionary punishments as well. So human reasoning and legislation is permissable within the general framework of divine laws.

Brother U ignore what I mean to say, look, there is no hadith which proves that anyone was punished for enslaving free person, the only hadith u could produce was indicating that ALLAH will be against those who will enslave free ppls, secondly I again stress that keeping slave is a sunnah, so which islamic judge can punish anyone for this crime is out of my reasoning capabilities. I dont contest that discretionary punishment cant be given, but I will stress on my point that no one can be punished for some act which comes in list of sunnah. Maybe u can call it my ignorance, still I wont deviate from my stand. i.e. In absence of a proper ruling no one can be punished for keeping a slave in a true islamic state U are free to disagree.

Why don't you tell me which are the Hindu scriptures and which aren't? Are the vedas hindu scriptures

Well brother first of all hindu is not a religion. The exact name of religion is Sanatan Dharma ie the Ancient Religion. But for ur convienience I will call it hindu. So only authentic hindu scripture is Bhagvad Gita..............which is considered words of Lord Krishna. Vedas are not authentic hindu scriptures, as I told u earlier it may be considered as some ancient literature.

If you prohibit wine or interest do you have to worry about what will happen to the wine, now that no one is drinking it? Do you have to worry what will happen to the money now that it is not being used for interest? Of course not. But slavery involves people; therefore, we have to worry about who will take care of these people and where they will go with no education, no work skills.

And this is from earlier part of this thread, offcourse from U

Perhaps, the reason behind this gradual eradication can be understood better if one considers the position which interest occupies in the economy of Pakistan today. No one can refute Pakistan’s national economic structure is interest oriented. How the parasite of interest has crippled the national economy is apparent to every keen eye. However, there is no denying the fact that without it our present economic system cannot sustain itself. Every reasonable person will acknowledge that today if a government wishes to rid the economy from this menace then, in spite of its utter prohibition in Islam, it will have to adopt a gradual methodology. During this interim period interest oriented deals will have to be tolerated and temporary laws will have to be enacted to handle them, just as the Qur’an had given certain provisional directives about slaves during the interim period of their gradual eradication. An alternative economic framework will have to be steadily incorporated in place of the existing one. A sudden abolition, without another parallel base, will only hasten the total collapse of the economic system, which, of course, will be disastrous for the country.

Brother U already know that if wine is prohibited than no one care what will happen to wine, but concern should be on those who sell and produce wine, their living could be deeply affected. U have urself explained the concerns which prohibition of interest could raise.Again I will remind u that if there is a will, ALLAH provides the way.

And as for Pakistan's problem in not being able to eradicate interest, I must say that the only country in the world formed in the name of Islam should already know that Islam has prohibited interest, before allowing interest on its soil. I think that they were not taught proper lessons of islam too. otherwise they would never had allowed interest on their soil.

And u are frequently ignoring my question that why Islam didnt prohibited slavery while it flourished under it? From the time of Prophet Adam to Prophet Muhammad (saw). Why it allowd this menace become so deep rooted? Had ALLAH considered slavery as an evil he would had taken measures in his earlier commands he revealed to the earlier prophets of islam. dont u agree? plz dont ignore this question this time too.

'humanity' is an english word that just means people. With an unbiased mind I think we can all agree that 'Islam' (meaniong peace achieved through submission to God) is a much more appropriate name for the universal code of life for all humanity

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Brother I m afraid that u are not unbiased. U must know that it was only due to humanity and not islam that kuffar rushed to help poor Tsunami victims in Indonasia and helpless quake victims in Kashmir. Those who swear by the name of islam either remained mute spectator or just came ahead with token help. Anyways I dont find this topic worthy of argument as to what shold be the name of one's religion. A rose by any other name will smell as sweet and a thorn by any other name will prick as hard. isnt it?

You are attempting to use the spotlight fallacy - a flawed form of argument. What you see in the media is not reflective of the everyone. Secondly, if you walk into a math class and you see students failing, will you conclude that math is flawed?! No, you will conclude that there is a problem in educating the students! Likewise, when we see that many people have not learned how to submit properly to God, it is because of ignorance, not because submission to God is a bad thing. When you say "I want to submit to God in peace" what you are really saying is "I like Islam", you just didn't know that

Brother I dont like the idea of comparing Islam with Maths or a Car what today's most knowledgable muslim scholer do to defend Islam. Still I will say that no, I wont say maths is flawed if a particular class failes and rest of classes do well in the subject. But definetely when I see the whole students of country failing in maths,than I will certainly feel that maths is not meant for these students. And it should not be imposed on them.

To become more clear, let me compare religion with school, now we have three different schools with us, school of Islam, school of christianity, and school of hinduism. Giving example of India, here we have around 700 million students of hinduism, around 150 million students of islam, just around 15 million students of christianity. But U wont find any town in India where christians institutions are not serving humanity, through hospitals, orphanages, schools, etc, and that too without any religious bias. offcource hindus come second in this list of service without religious bias, and Islam comes at poor third..............the student of this prestigious school are yet to sort out their own differences, helping and serving is distant possibility. So which religion is good for humanity? With islam, I see similar situation worldwide. And plz dont tell me that they are not proper student of islam, we all know very well that among all religions only students of Islam are most obidient and attentive students. rest of students dont give much value to the lessons of their religion.

I request U to think in the name of ALLAH and tell me whether there is any other community so fractured and divided like muslims today? hundreds of sects, each sect declaring others non muslim, leaders of sects justifying killing of others by quoting islam. Plz be honest in the name of ALLAH and tell me who is killing muslims in more numbers? are they kuffars or are they muslims themselves? And regarding ur quote I like Islam.............yes u are right, I do like Islam, just as I like any other religion in the world, I only dismiss the idea that Islam is the only true religion of GOD, I believe that there is no such thing as religion of GOD except humanity...........all religions are man made keeping in view the situation of that time when they came into existance, just to guide the society to right path. All prophets were noble creations of GOD. We must respect them all.

I'm sorry but on this forum, whenever you make a claim, you have to back it up. This is a scientific forum for factual discussion, not for personal prejudice or conjecture.

Brother I dont have at all any personal prejudice against any creation of GOD, it is the biggest sin for me to judge a person from his faith and not action. When I say that muslims are behaving as munafiqs than I have enough proof with me to prove my point. For instance if a news breaks out that americans have mis handled holy quran than muslims over the world will be on the road demonstrating against americans, shouting anti american slogans, burning effigies, but when it comes to follow the words of holy quran..........they simply dismiss it. almost all muslim countries allowing interest on its soil is proof of my statement. no country in the world implementing shariyah laws is proof of my statement. what else u need from me to pr ove that muslims are behaving like munafiqs? Dont they know that interest is declared as most haram in holy quran? dont they know that they can taste hellfire for eating interest? so whats wrong with their education?

If there is a problem with the Muslims in the world, it is because of ignorance, lack of education. Just as many people have not been educated about mathematics, likewise they have not been educated about their religion, Islam. Yet we do not place the blame on Islam or on mathematics for the failure of students or adherents.

No brother, U are wrong in my views, its only muslims who get the best education of their religion............U can find scores of madaris(religious schools) anywhere in the world where muslims live. No missionary school teach christianity and no hindu school teach Gita.........while in every muslim country, lessons of religion are compulsory from the very begening. If I say in ur words, teaching maths is responsible for worsening the education standerd of student coz they dont need it as their subject. It is being imposed on them unwillingly, by infilicting fear in their heart that if they dont learn maths than they will definetely remain uneducated (or burn in hell). Why dont try to teach them some other subject to shape their future if they are unable to learn maths?

Thanks for ur attention.

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane

Brother U ignore what I mean to say, look, there is no hadith which proves that anyone was punished for enslaving free person, the only hadith u could produce was indicating that ALLAH will be against those who will enslave free ppls

Okay, you clearly are not paying attention. Let's do this again. Here are the facts:
1. The authentic hadith proves that Allah will be against those who enslave free people, indicating the gravity of this sin
2. This obviously means that it is prohibited. So the Islamic ruling has been established that enslaving free people is prohibited.
3. The Islamic state has to enforce Islamic rulings
4. The Islamic state has the right to punish those who are not following the Islamic rulings (if you disagree, read the ahadith on the Riddah wars in the time of Abu Bakr rd)
5. Therefore, the Islamic state has the right to punish those people who enslave free people

Initially I went from pt. 1 to pt. 5 and assumed you would be able to follow, but clearly that wasn't the case, so now I have laid it out very simply so there will be no confusion.

secondly I again stress that keeping slave is a sunnah

Manfiestly, you have little understanding of what Sunnah is. Bring your evidence that it is sunnah. Sunnah does not refer to everything the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did; riding a camel is not sunnah, for example.

Secondly, the issue here is enslaving free people not keeping someone as a slave. In an Islamic state in the modern age, the only method of instituting slavery would be to enslave free people - something clearly prohibited.

So only authentic hindu scripture is Bhagvad Gita..............which is considered words of Lord Krishna. Vedas are not authentic hindu scriptures, as I told u earlier it may be considered as some ancient literature.

If you wish to disown your scriptures, I won't argue, but millions of Hindus revere and implement those passages I cited earlier.

Brother U already know that if wine is prohibited than no one care what will happen to wine, but concern should be on those who sell and produce wine, their living could be deeply affected. U have urself explained the concerns which prohibition of interest could raise.

I notice that you still did not answer my point. Money and wine do not need to be cared for, but a slave is a human who needs to be cared for. Yes, the slave master, the wine producer and those involved in interest would also be affected, but not as much as the slave.

Again I will remind u that if there is a will, ALLAH provides the way.

This is the fallacy I pointed out earlier. Yes, of course if Allah wanted there would never have been any slavery, or any evil at all on earth. Why did Allah create evil? So that we will have a test in trying to remove it.

And as for Pakistan's problem in not being able to eradicate interest, I must say that the only country in the world formed in the name of Islam should already know that Islam has prohibited interest, before allowing interest on its soil.

Pakistan is not an Islamic country, it is a Muslim country. There is no Islamic country in the world.

And u are frequently ignoring my question that why Islam didnt prohibited slavery while it flourished under it? From the time of Prophet Adam to Prophet Muhammad (saw). Why it allowd this menace become so deep rooted?

It didn't allow it. It was always prohibited, and the proof is the story of Pharoah who enslaved the children of Israel to work for him even though Prophet Moses called him to liberate them. It is the tyrants who have killed or rejected prophets and continued to enslave people like this. (Qur'an 26:22)

U must know that it was only due to humanity and not islam that kuffar rushed to help poor Tsunami victims in Indonasia and helpless quake victims in Kashmir.

I see you are getting confused because you are using an arabic word. I challenged you to only write 'submission-to-God' instead of Islam in your next post, and you will see how nonsensical your points become. This is my challenge to you; write 'submission to God' instead of Islam in your next post.

The problem you really have is with some Muslims, not Islam.

Anyways I dont find this topic worthy of argument as to what shold be the name of one's religion.

God has named our way of life as 'peace achieved through submission to Him' (Ar. Islam) and you have admitted that this is the essence of your way of life as well, thus the proof is clear that this is the most appropriate name.

Brother I dont like the idea of comparing Islam with Maths or a Car what today's most knowledgable muslim scholer do to defend Islam. Still I will say that no, I wont say maths is flawed if a particular class failes and rest of classes do well in the subject. But definetely when I see the whole students of country failing in maths,than I will certainly feel that maths is not meant for these students.

Go to some of the third world countries then and you will see the whole country's students failing in math. Go to mali or niger:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_sch_lif_exp_tot

To become more clear, let me compare religion with school

False analogy.

Islam is not a school. Islam is an unchanging code of laws, while school is a system of teaching laws. The proof is that there are schools where they teach Islam just like mathematics or science, yet Islam itself is not a school.

And plz dont tell me that they are not proper student of islam, we all know very well that among all religions only students of Islam are most obidient and attentive students.

This is nonsense. You obviously have not visited Muslim communities. The entire reason why Muslims are failing is because they have left their religion. Is there any country where the Masajid are as full for Fajr prayer as they are for Jumu'ah? No.

I request U to think in the name of ALLAH and tell me whether there is any other community so fractured and divided like muslims today?

of course. Muslims are not nearly as divided as Christians. Christianity is split right down the middle into catholics, eastern orthodox and protestants. You may try to point out Shias and Sunnis as well, but Sunnis are the clear majority, unlike in Christianity, where there are more sects, and the majority is a lesser percentage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ber_of_members

yes u are right, I do like Islam, just as I like any other religion in the world, I only dismiss the idea that Islam is the only true religion of GOD

You don't think submitting to God is the only path acceptable to God?! Logically, you're saying that disobedience to God is also acceptable to Him.

but when it comes to follow the words of holy quran..........they simply dismiss it.

THANK YOU. You just proved my point. Muslims are not following Islam. Therefore, the problem is with Muslims and not with Islam. If we could educate the people properly and bring them back to their religion, we would eliminate all the problems.

U can find scores of madaris(religious schools) anywhere in the world where muslims live.

Since you are not a Muslim, we will disregard your opinion on the quality of education a Muslim recieves. When I speak about proper Islamic education I am not speaking about simply memorizing a few surahs.

Why dont try to teach them some other subject to shape their future if they are unable to learn maths?

Why don't you go to those campaigns which are working to educate people in third world countries, teaching them mathematics amongst other subjects, and tell these people, "Don't teach them math".

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane

No brother U are wrong, confusion is still there. For instance if enslaving free ppls is prohibited in islam and the culprit is eligible for punishment than how come that the noble companions enslaved free ppls? ie prisnors of war who were free ppls prior to invasion of believers.

Again, as I already explained to you, we're not talking about prisoners of war. We're talking about enslaving free people outside the context of war. The Islamic state can punish someone who enslaves a free person outside of war.

As for war, this was explained earlier in this thread. No soldier was EVER allowed to enslave a captive that they chanced upon in war. Any captives obtained in war were turned over to the Islamic gov't which decided they're fate. This included the following options:
-ransoming captives or trading trading them for muslim prisoners of war captured by the enemy
-often freed in the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh if they could teach ten Muslims to read/write
-since the Islamic state did not have institutions or resources to shelter and take care of so many prisoners of war, they were entrusted to various families as servants. Slavery was the norm for prisoners of war but the Prophet Muhammad pbuh mandated that they be treated properly and not abused.

In the modern context I already explained that an Islamic state would be able to decide what is best for the prisoners of war and could easily afford the institutions necessary to shelter and care for such people.

I dont have that much islamic knowledge

Exactly. You should learn from those who do.

U are utterly wrong, I have already told U why.

I have refuted your explanation. War can only be carried out by an Islamic state so please tell me how it is possible for someone to acquire a slave in an Islamic state?

Brother a muslim should not speak like this without any proof.

I have provided the proof. I have given you many sources which agree that these are sacred hindu scriptures.

Brother I already answered ur point.

You have provided no answer whatsoever besides saying "plz don't tell me this or plz don't tell me that". You think this is evidence? You think this is a strong argument?

And further the holy prophet could had ensured that the slaves who want freedom must be freed, and slaves who want to carry on with their masters can remain slaves, untill they want freedom.

Any reasonable person would realize that that is exactly the same problem. All the slaves would be freed and the economy would collapse causing all of them to suffer.

Brother I m a kafir, so I dont believe in duality of ALLAH and satan. ALLAH didnt created evil, its us humans who have created evil.

If you believe that God did not create evil that means you DO believe in duality. Please research your terms properly before making such a mistake. The Zoroastrians are a perfect example for duality - they didn't believe that God could create evil so they said that there are two gods - Ahura Mazda and Ahriman, the former good and the latter evil.

And you have made another mistake. You said God didn't create evil but humans created evil - who created humans? God! Therefore you are saying God has indirectly created evil.

My point remains the same regardless. The question of why God allowed slavery to spread is exactly the same as the atheist's 'problem of evil' which asks, "If God is all powerful why did He create evil?"

Now plz answer me properly, why ALLAH didnt prhoibited slavery before it became deep rooted, or such a custom that even the holy prophet and noble companions had to practice it

I already told you it was prohibited. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not ignore the prohibition, but he put steps in place to remove slavery once again.

Brother I too told u that name hardly matters, so no need to challange me to use this name or that

So you have failed my challenge. You couldn't do it because you realized it would render your posts nonsensical.

When he says that Isam is spreading than according to U he is saying that submission of ALLAH is spreading..... is he true?

Absolutely.

Brother U are very quick to declare my analogy as false one, but U urself compare islam with maths.

Islam can be compared with mathematics. This is an adequate analogy. Islam cannot be compared with school. This is a false analogy.

Is that clear? I'm surprised I need to spell things out for you in such a basic manner.

and what about Dr. Zakir Naik who compare islam with a car?

His analogy serves the same purpose although the mathematics analogy is even more accurate.

And further let me share my views with U that muslims are failing coz they give too much importance to peace achieved through submission to God.

There, I replaced the words for you. Now look how ridiculous your comments is.

Brothre Obidience of GOD is offcource acceptable to GOD, but definetely what Islam, or any other religion tells is not all what GOD wants, this is my belief. GOD hasnt revealed a code of conduct for humans. He has given enough mind to humans to know what is right and what is wrong. U must want me to bring proof, I will say that failure of all religions in its original form is unchallangeble proof of my comments, and further success of democracy and man made ideas too give strength to what I claim.

Religion has not failed. God has not failed. Human beings have failed. They have failed to follow the religion of God and because they do not follow it how can they hope to achieve success?

Again wrong brother, its only muslims who follow their religion as much as one can.

Then you just contradicted yourself.

Muslims today no longer follow their rleigion and that is why they are suffering. Take it from me - I know the Muslim community, you don't.

We have seen how good society talibaans had established on implementing islam 100%, we can see the modle of Saudi Arabia, where islam is implemented most

Neither Taliban nor Saudi Arabia were/are pure Islamic governments. The Islamic government is a Khilafa. Neither of the two mentioned come close.

I m sure that today's muslim is not ready to accept amputation for theft of stoning for adultry. and no human can be, these laws are unpractical and cant be from ALLAH.

These questions have all been answered in the following thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html

Brother may I know what kind of education was given to muslims during the times of the holy prophet and right after him? Wat is quality islamic education?

Please read:
http://www.islamonline.net/english/I...rticle19.shtml

Was this remark really relevent? All I wanted to say that if some students dont want to learn maths than why impose maths on them.

Everyone has the right and the need to at least learn the basics. They don't need to become mathematicians just like not every Muslim needs to become a great scholar. But just like no one rejects math as false simply because they have difficult learning it, likewise, that is also not a proper answer for Islam.

Regards

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane

And I have clearly explained to U that coz the holy prophet had no objection enslaving free ppls

Incorrect. I already gave you the hadith, which cleary shows the Prophet's saws condemnation of those who enslave free people.

Please allow me to summarize what we have discussed.

-Enslaving free people comes under two categories:

a)enslaving those other than prisoners of war. This is categorically prohibited in Islam as seen in the hadith (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, 430) therefore, someone who does this can be punished by an Islamic state.
b) enslaving prisoners of war. A few points to note:

War can only be carried out by an Islamic state, therefore no person has the right to enslave a captive.
The captives become the responsibility of the Islamic state once they are captured. If the Islamic state has the institutions and resources available to shelter and care for the prisoners of war, then they will do so. Or the prisoners can be ransomed or exchanged for Muslim prisoners.
In the time of the Prophet saws they did not have the institutions or the capacity to shelter prisoners of war, consequently they were entrusted to Muslim families.

Why so many prisnors of war were to be captured in a state which was based on peace achieved through submission of GOD ie Islam.

It is easy for people to say whatever they want, so let's read the historical facts about what happened in the time of the Prophet saws:

According to the traditions which prevailed at that time both in Arabia and outside, prisoners of war became slaves. This applied both to men and women. Two hundred families of Al-Mustalaq faced slavery as a result of their ill-considered plan to attack the Muslims. It should be emphasized here that such a prospect was not as terrible as one may think today. Slaves in the Muslim state enjoyed all their human rights as fellow human beings to their masters. This was true only in the land of Islam. Islam treats every individual as a human being who is susceptible to be a good servant of God. Hence no one is despised or looked down upon simply because he lacks in forune or bad circumstances.

Freeing a Whole Tribe
The Prophet, however, did not like this prospect for his vanquished enemies. His primary thoughts did not follow the tendencies of kings and emperors. First and foremost, he was a Messenger of God whose task was to save mankind from subjugation to false gods. He did not view the material wealth of the Muslim community as his top priority. He realized that an act of kindness might win over the hearts of yesterday's enemy.
yet the Prophet could not enact special legislation for the tribe of al-Mustalaq. As long as slavery was an international practice, the Muslims could not abolish it unilaterally. If any Muslims were ever taken prisoners in a battle, they would have been enslaved by their enemies. hence enemy prisoners had to be treated likewise. Yet the situation called for immediate action to help al-Mustalaq people before it was too late.
The Prophet played a master stroke which brought about the desired results without any adverse repercussions. Among the women taken prisoner was Barrah, daughter of Al-Hârith, chief of al-Mustalaq. The Prophet took her for himself, granted her freedom from slavery and proposed to her. When she accepted, he married and renamed her Juwayriyyah. When the Muslims realized what the Prophet had done, they felt that they could no longer keep the people of al-Mustalaq as their slaves. The whole tribe were considered relatives of the Prophet now that he had married one of their women. This is in keeping with the tribal traditions of Arabia. So all the Muslims who had slaves from al-Mustalaq voluntarily set them free. The Muslims loved the Prophet more than they loved themselves, therefore it was natural that they did not like to have his relatives as their slaves. Thus Juwayriyyah was celebrated by her tribe as a woman of unparalleled blessings. She was the cause of their change of fortunes from slavery to freedom. Sortly afterwards, many of them embraced Islam. (fn. Ibn Hishâm, op. cit., pp. 307-308. Also, Ibn Sayyid al-Nas, op. cit., p. 138/) (Adil Salahi, pp. 405-406)

See also my earlier post in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/127799-post10.html
This answers alll your questions. Slavery was not introduced by Islam, it was gradually prohibited.

Brother I have frquently told u that iits only possible for someone to aquire a slave in an Islamic state, in kufr state one cant dare do that.

You avoided the question! Again: HOW is someone going to acquire a slave in an Islamic state? Where would they get a slave?

Brother I too had asked U that if giving some link of a website is enough proof in ur views than are u going to accept whatever is written there in a site? I can too give u many links which speaks otherwise about Islam.

Who is Apastamba? You tell me.

Brother any reasonable person will tell U that if the holy prophet allowd slavery to happen and himself practised it than it was wrong on his part.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh took steps towards the gradual prohibition of slavery.

Brother I m sorry to say that ur religion which is peace achieved through submisson to GOD give this kind of lessons. I m sure this is why muslims over the world are yet to establish their identity as peace loving ppls.

You have just committed the logical fallacy known as an ad hominem attack.

The atheists ask the question: If God is good and and all-powerful then why is there evil in the world? Is God capable of and willing to removing the evil in the world?

From the looks of it, you would have a very difficult time answering that question. I have given a detailed explanation on the 'problem of evil' in this thread but for the purpose of the current thread I would just briefly point out that the existence of 'evil' in our lives is a trial from God. If there was no hunger, where would the test be to feed people? If there was no poverty, where would the test be to donate generously? If there was no injustice, where would the test be to establish justice? If there was no violence, where would the test be to establish peace?

Brother plz wake up giving this type of answers.

Stop giving these answers? Why? Because I've answered all your questions and refuted all your claims?

Offcource the holy prophet was sent to eradicate inhuman customs and not to be a part of them.

And that is why he put steps in place to abolish slavery, such as the obligation to free slaves as expiation in many cases.

Enslaving is NOT the sunnah. Freeing slaves is the sunnah.

Brother just to honour ur challange I have used the phrase u wanted me to use instead of islam.

Thanks.

So brother when Dr Zakir Naik says that peace achieved through submission of GOD is spreading than he is saying the truth? show me where is peace achieved through submission of GOD?

Even as we speak, millions of people are realizing the truth about God and accepting the path of submitting to Him by following His commands, thus attaining peace, both internal and external. Even on our forum we have dozens of converts.

Islam can be compared with Maths, Islam can be compared with Car.............than how come Islam cant be compared with a school? whats wrong with this analogy?

I explained. Islam is something that is learned and studied as a subject. Islam is not a school, math is not a school, science is not a school. These are all things that are taught in school.

So do u agree to my point that the religion of peace achieve through submission to GOD has produced more munafiqs than muslims? so how come U agree to the statement that peace achieved through GOD is spreading?

It is true that many have left the path of peace achieved through submission to God and they are no longer following God's commands. But it is also true that God is replacing them with people better than them who are willing to submit to God and love His path.

Okay brother I got It. So I was wrong when I thought that at least this religion of peace achieved through submission of GODis not quiet disappeared. But with ur above statement I will have to rethink.

The political teachings of the religion are not being implemented in the world, but that doesn't mean that the other teachings are not.

Regards

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane

And further I almost agree whatever u tell me about good treatment prescribed by him.

Thank you justahumane, it is wonderful to know that we have been successful in clarifying confusion through this dialogue.

NO one can deny that current world situation calls for jihad for a true islamic state.

err...what?

I can imagine that when Jews, Christians, and Mushriks will become PoW than how islamic government is going to treat them. Offcource they can be soft on them and enslave them with the instruction of good food or cloting.

In the event of a new Islamic gov't and a new war breaks out, God forbid, there are a few things to keep in mind. First of all, anyone who is captured comes under the jurisdiction of the Islamic gov't and not the soldiers. The Islamic government has to look at what is best for the collective state. Since resources and institutions would be able available to imprison prisoners, there is no reason why the gov't would attempt to re-institute slavery, especially when it has been abolished on a global level. Such actions would not serve any purpose.

But I cant imagine that how the jew ppls are going to be treated, upon whom Dr. Zakir Naik quotes that sucide bombing is halal coz all israili jews are army personals. They surely deserve slavery, thanks to their cruel acts.

First, prisoners of war cannot be treated badly just because we don't like them. That is haraam. Please see the rights of Prisoners of war:
http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...tml#post173422

Secondly, if you want to attribute something to Dr. Naik, please provide a quote and we can discuss it.

Brother I agree with the later part of ur statement. But evil is somethig else. Evil is misusing of the power in crushing the creation of GOD, And often this is done in the name of service to GOD. Evil is raping some helpless lady. Evil is killing some innocent. I cant really give u the name of all but there are definetely thousands. So I again say, GOD hasnt created evil, or satan, its created by us humans. And as far as the question of atheists is concerned I can give the answer according to my viewpoint. But at the end of day I believe that we cant learn ALL thats in GOD's mind. So we should do our duty and leave rest on ALLAH, According to hinduism.....GOD has said in Bhagvat Gita that just do ur duty, U will get proper return for ur deeds by me. So plz think again that who has created rape. GOD or human? Who has created killing? and who have created the real evil on earth. I know U wont agree, but I just wanted to make my views known to u. coz I know urs.

The atheist would ask, "Why does God permit such evil things to occur?"

Just like you asked me, "Why did God permit slavery to develop?"

Its good if u have refuted all my claims, plz accept my congratulations too. There are many more ahead waiting too.

Thanks. It good of you to accept that as well; I'm sure we can be very productive with such open-minded dialogue.

Its bed time in India.

Sweet dreams.

Salam brother Ansar and thanks for ur post.

Even as we speak, millions of people are realizing the truth about God and accepting the path of submitting to Him by following His commands, thus attaining peace, both internal and external. Even on our forum we have dozens of converts.

Well its good that millions of ppls are realizing the truth of Islam and following the commands of ALLAH. But I m really yet to see some group of ppls who are doing that. I too know some hindu converts, but they only converted coz they wanted to do adultry outside of marriage and Indian laws didnt permit them to do so. So they had to embrace Islam to marry again to ditch their first wife. If ur claims of millions converting and submitting to the path of ALLAH, in the moment we speak, is true than I m sure that very soon we are going to see good effects of this, Inshallah.

In fact brother, I was adviced to read holy quran and to know islam by a very close friend of mine who wanted me to convert to Islam. And I did this for her, ie tried to know about Islam. but couldnt believe. Reasons were many. Like the claim of ALLAH that he has made muslims the best Ummah in the world. I suspect this claim. I sincerely wish that ur claim reggarding new muslims are true so that very soon we can see the good effects on the society and world.

I explained. Islam is something that is learned and studied as a subject. Islam is not a school, math is not a school, science is not a school. These are all things that are taught in school

Brother a religion is a school which gives us lessons to shape up our future and morale. Religion is not only something to learn. Religion is something which is supposed to make us humans good human beings. And the moment it starts proving to be counter productive than it is bound to come under a scanner.

It is true that many have left the path of peace achieved through submission to God and they are no longer following God's commands. But it is also true that God is replacing them with people better than them who are willing to submit to God and love His path.

If it is true than isnt it logical and binding on a muslim scholer that when he speaks starting from Bismillah than he should not speak lies about the number of ppls who follow the path of peace achieved through submission of GOD. When some prominent muslim scholer claims in the name of ALLAH that today there are 1400 million ppls who are following the path of peace achieved through submission to GOD than obviously he is lying and commiting a sin, dont u agree?

The political teachings of the religion are not being implemented in the world, but that doesn't mean that the other teachings are not.

Brother plz permit me to call it yet another wrong statement from U. Is refraining from interest is political teaching of islam? How many countries U know where interest is not permissible? There are many many more non-political teachings which are not being implemented.

In the event of a new Islamic gov't and a new war breaks out, God forbid, there are a few things to keep in mind. First of all, anyone who is captured comes under the jurisdiction of the Islamic gov't and not the soldiers. The Islamic government has to look at what is best for the collective state. Since resources and institutions would be able available to imprison prisoners, there is no reason why the gov't would attempt to re-institute slavery, especially when it has been abolished on a global level. Such actions would not serve any purpose.

Well brother although U have advocated ur cause very well still U just fall short of being reasonable. I must emphasize on that the best option for the Islamic government in any such situation will be to abide by holy quran and hadiths. I admit that ur personal views are very noble one in this regard, but i suspect whether the men in the saddle will think the way U think. And precedents too are not going them to allow to deal with PoWs the way U propose. Furter I dont think that Islamic state will take its decisions according to global situations and not its own precedents.

Secondly, if you want to attribute something to Dr. Naik, please provide a quote and we can discuss it.

Right brother, I m going to start a new therad very soon where we can discuess the quotes of Dr. Naik and other issues which will arise. But only after taking ur permission.

The atheist would ask, "Why does God permit such evil things to occur?"

Just like you asked me, "Why did God permit slavery to develop?"

Brother I have something to complain. U quote my words in pieces according to ur choice. Almost all of ur posts are example of it. ie quoting my words out of context and in parts. I never asked u such thing like why did GOD permit slavery to develop? So U cant draw parreral with what athiest would ask,using my words. Let me remind u my question again. I asked U that,

And u are frequently ignoring my question that why Islam didnt prohibited slavery while it flourished under it? From the time of Prophet Adam to Prophet Muhammad (saw). Why it allowd this menace become so deep rooted? Had ALLAH considered slavery as an evil he would had taken measures in his earlier commands he revealed to the earlier prophets of islam.

This was my exact question brother, that why Islam didnt take any measure when slavery was in the process of being deep rooted in the society. If u didnt understand my question let me again try. When ALLAH revealed the commands to the earlier prophets of Islam then why he never made this inhuman practice as unlawful? I m only talking about any commands from ALLAH and not any action from him against those who enslaved ppls. Like the atheists. I hope now I can make u understand.

Thanks.

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane

If ur claims of millions converting and submitting to the path of ALLAH, in the moment we speak, is true than I m sure that very soon we are going to see good effects of this, Inshallah.

Inshaa'Allah, but the biggest obstacle to that is the negative propaganda and slander that is being spread about Islam, reminiscent of the Nazi propaganda campaign against the Jews prior to the holocaust.

Like the claim of ALLAH that he has made muslims the best Ummah in the world.

Please cite the verse and then we can discuss.

Brother a religion is a school which gives us lessons to shape up our future and morale.

Religion is not a person or group of people that teach. Religion, or specifically Islam, is what is in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The Qur'an and Sunnah don't suddenly come in the form of teachers and teach themselves to us. You need to create education institutions to bring the knowledge of islam to the people.

Suppose we have two Islamic schools. One of them is providing students with excellent education, giving them the tools to analyze and implement the Islamic laws, and becoming an active contributor to society, with a balanced personality. The other school simply makes students memorize arabic phrases that they don't understand. If we make a judgement, we will be judging the quality of the schools, NOT Islam. In order to judge Islam, you have to go to the original sources and analyze what the religion teaches.

If it is true than isnt it logical and binding on a muslim scholer that when he speaks starting from Bismillah than he should not speak lies about the number of ppls who follow the path of peace achieved through submission of GOD. When some prominent muslim scholer claims in the name of ALLAH that today there are 1400 million ppls who are following the path of peace achieved through submission to GOD than obviously he is lying and commiting a sin, dont u agree?

To say that there are 1.4/1.6 billion Muslims in the world is not a lie, but merely giving the people the benefit of the doubt. In this context we are discussing how many people outwardly profess to be Muslims, but every scholar agrees that we cannot objectively state how many people are actually submitting in their hearts to Allah.

Brother plz permit me to call it yet another wrong statement from U. Is refraining from interest is political teaching of islam? How many countries U know where interest is not permissible? There are many many more non-political teachings which are not being implemented.

Most Muslims that I know do not take interest, so yes this teaching is being implemented. Just because the governments are not implementing it does not mean it isn't. Many people are implementing it.

Well brother although U have advocated ur cause very well still U just fall short of being reasonable. I must emphasize on that the best option for the Islamic government in any such situation will be to abide by holy quran and hadiths. I admit that ur personal views are very noble one in this regard, but i suspect whether the men in the saddle will think the way U think.

The Islamic state is buuilt on shura (consultation), not dictatorship. And the Islamic guidelines are also very clear for people.

And precedents too are not going them to allow to deal with PoWs the way U propose. Furter I dont think that Islamic state will take its decisions according to global situations and not its own precedents.

Let's talk about Islamic precedents.

Thumaamah ibn Athaal – the leader of Bani Haneefah – was brought (to Madeenah) as a prisoner and tied to one of the pillars of the mosque. The Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to him and said, “What do you think, O Thumaamah?” He said, “What I think, O Muhammad, is good. If you kill me, you will kill one with blood on his hands – i.e., I will deserve to be killed because I have killed Muslims – and if you release me you will release one who will be grateful. If you want money, then ask, and I will give you whatever you want.” The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) left him for three days, and each day he would come and ask him similar questions, and Thumaamah would give similar answers. After the third day, he commanded that he should be released. Thumaamah went to a stand of date-palms near the mosque where he bathed (did ghusl), then he came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “I bear witness that there is no god except Allaah and I bear witness that Muhammad is the slave of Allaah and His Messenger.” Then he said: “O Messenger of Allaah, by Allaah there was no one on earth whose face was more hateful to me than yours, but now your face is the most beloved of all faces to me. By Allaah, there was no religion that was more hateful to me than your religion, but now your religion has become the most beloved of all religions to me. By Allaah, there was no land more hateful to me than your land, but now your land has become the most beloved to me. Your cavalry captured me when I was on my way to perform ‘Umrah, so what do you think I should do?”

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) congratulated him, and told him to go for ‘Umrah. When he came to Makkah, someone asked him, “Have you changed your religion?” He said, “No, but I have submitted with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and by Allaah you will not get a grain of wheat from al-Yamaamah unless the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) gives permission.”

Think about this story, may Allaah bless you, and how the kind treatment of Thumaamah led to his embracing Islam, which could not have happened were it not primarily by the grace of Allaah, and also the kind treatment which Thumaamah received.

In the Qur’aan, Allaah says of the righteous (interpretation of the meaning):

“And they give food, in spite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the Miskeen (the poor), the orphan, and the captive,

(Saying): ‘We feed you seeking Allaah’s Countenance only. We wish for no reward, nor thanks from you’”

[al-Insaan 76:8-9]

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Ibn ‘Abbaas said: in those days their prisoners were mushrikeen; on the day of Badr the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) commanded them to be kind to their prisoners, so they used to put them before themselves when it came to food… Mujaahid said, this refers to the one who is detained, i.e., they would give food to these prisoners even though they themselves desired it and loved it.”

Right brother, I m going to start a new therad very soon where we can discuess the quotes of Dr. Naik and other issues which will arise. But only after taking ur permission.

Feel free, inshaa'Allah.

Brother I have something to complain. U quote my words in pieces according to ur choice. Almost all of ur posts are example of it. ie quoting my words out of context and in parts. I never asked u such thing like why did GOD permit slavery to develop? So U cant draw parreral with what athiest would ask,using my words. Let me remind u my question again. I asked U that,

And u are frequently ignoring my question that why Islam didnt prohibited slavery while it flourished under it? From the time of Prophet Adam to Prophet Muhammad (saw). Why it allowd this menace become so deep rooted? Had ALLAH considered slavery as an evil he would had taken measures in his earlier commands he revealed to the earlier prophets of islam.

This was my exact question brother, that why Islam didnt take any measure when slavery was in the process of being deep rooted in the society. If u didnt understand my question let me again try. When ALLAH revealed the commands to the earlier prophets of Islam then why he never made this inhuman practice as unlawful? I m only talking about any commands from ALLAH and not any action from him against those who enslaved ppls. Like the atheists. I hope now I can make u understand.

As for the commands, then enslaving free people was always unlawful just as violence was unlawful. When human beings began to indulge in these things against the commands of Allah, some practices became deeply rooted and that is why Islam had to gradually remove it.

Regards

Salam brother Ansar and thanks for reply.

Inshaa'Allah, but the biggest obstacle to that is the negative propaganda and slander that is being spread about Islam, reminiscent of the Nazi propaganda campaign against the Jews prior to the holocaust.

I dont agree brother that any kind of negative propoganda is being spread about Islam. The responsibility for all the bad name, that Islam is getting today, goes to Muslims. They have failed their duty to give their religion a good name. Offcource by their actions. And its not good for a believer to term those things as obstacles. U must realilze that the biggest obstacle in way of a true islamic state is lack of believers......not any propoganda or slander. I hope U correct urself. If I come to this forum and speak out my mind than its not any kind of malaise towards Islam, its out of my belief that Islam is doing no good to society.....both for muslims and for non muslims.

Please cite the verse and then we can discuss.

Brother okay I will cite the verse later, but I m sure that U know what verse I m talking about. Why dont u cite it for me and correct me if I said anything wrong? In fact I read that verse in holy quran and later when I was listening to Dr. Zakir Naik he too quoted that particular verse which says that Muslims are made the best Ummah in the world.

Suppose we have two Islamic schools. One of them is providing students with excellent education, giving them the tools to analyze and implement the Islamic laws, and becoming an active contributor to society, with a balanced personality. The other school simply makes students memorize arabic phrases that they don't understand. If we make a judgement, we will be judging the quality of the schools, NOT Islam. In order to judge Islam, you have to go to the original sources and analyze what the religion teaches.

Hmmm brother, good to know that on few points we have same views. But do U really think that any sincere effort is being done to establish first kind of Islamic shcool anywhere? I have serious doubts. The madaris I see around me are providing the second kind of Islamic education, to students, often laced with hatred for other religions. Do U know that?

To say that there are 1.4/1.6 billion Muslims in the world is not a lie, but merely giving the people the benefit of the doubt. In this context we are discussing how many people outwardly profess to be Muslims, but every scholar agrees that we cannot objectively state how many people are actually submitting in their hearts to Allah.

Brother, I knew that U wont agree that such prominent scholers lie in the name of ALLAH, but I leave this on ur heart. After all ALLAH knows all, no matter whether we agree or disagree. Still I must say that when they start their discource with the name of ALLAH, than they must not say like so much ppls are following the peace achieved through submission of GOD. Its sinful on their part. But again ALLAH knows the best whether I m wrong or right.

Most Muslims that I know do not take interest, so yes this teaching is being implemented. Just because the governments are not implementing it does not mean it isn't. Many people are implementing it.

Brother usually the countries where interest is being implemented are democracies.........and ppls choose government in democracies. It clearly means that majority of ppls are not comfortable with the idea of implementation of Islamic principles. They rather like to choose haram and halal with their own convienience.

Let's talk about

Well brother I again will say that I have no doubt about the noble personality of the Holy Prophet. Still the precedent U quoted for me must not be the only one about him. He might have freed some prisonrs of war, and he might have enslaved some too. Who knows which precedent is going to be followed? both possibilities may be there. dont u agree?

As for the commands, then enslaving free people was always unlawful just as violence was unlawful. When human beings began to indulge in these things against the commands of Allah, some practices became deeply rooted and that is why Islam had to gradually remove it.

I just dismiss ur statement as wrong one brother. Had slavery been declared unlawfull by ALLAH before that, than the holy prophet must not had kept slaves. Could he do anything against the commands of ALLAH? I m sure, NO. A perfect proof that slavery was not declared unlawfull by ALLAH, nor before the holy prophet nor after him.

Thanks.

format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane

I dont agree brother that any kind of negative propoganda is being spread about Islam.

Islam is being attacked from all forms of media and this is creating a negative perception of Islam in people's minds preventing them from educating themselves to find the truth.

Brother okay I will cite the verse later, but I m sure that U know what verse I m talking about.

I need you to cite the verses specifically sine there may be a few different ones that you are alluding to, and I need to know the exact phrase being discussed. So until then I'll wait for the verses.

Hmmm brother, good to know that on few points we have same views. But do U really think that any sincere effort is being done to establish first kind of Islamic shcool anywhere?

Yes, I have witnessed several new programs and educational institutions being set up in various Muslim communities across the world.

Brother, I knew that U wont agree that such prominent scholers lie in the name of ALLAH, but I leave this on ur heart.

I just gave you the explanation but you ignored it.

Brother usually the countries where interest is being implemented are democracies

Which countries are you thinking of?

Well brother I again will say that I have no doubt about the noble personality of the Holy Prophet.

That's great to hear.

Still the precedent U quoted for me must not be the only one about him.

If you think so, then why don't you do the research and quote for me some other precedent. I'll make it even easier for you:
http://www.islamicboard.com/educatio...resources.html
In the above thread you will find a list of resources on the Prophet Muhammad pbuh which you can read and get back to me. I'm sure that once you will read his biography you will agree even more about his noble character, just as others did when they read the Prophet's biography.

I just dismiss ur statement as wrong one brother. Had slavery been declared unlawfull by ALLAH before that, than the holy prophet must not had kept slaves.

As I explained earlier, the Prophet pbuh made it very clear that slavery was undesirable, but given the situation that they lived in, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh had to gradually implement steps for the removal of slavery. The first was the Qur'anic declaration of human equality (49:13).

Regards

Hi Discussor,

format_quote Originally Posted by Discussor

Do you not think that examples of behaviour we saw in London over the weekend may contribute to negative perceptions of Islam?

Sure it will, but I find that when we have 1 nutcase calling for terrorist attacks, and 1000 Imaams condemning such a person, the media will focus on the 1 nutcase. For example, how many people heard about Yusuf Islam who recieved the Man of Peace award 2004?