Why don't Muslims believe in the Trinity?

peace and greetings

The Bible too proves Jesus (pbuh) is not God


Jesus (peace be upon him) just before he supposedly died said, "Forgive them, Father! They know not what they do." Who do you think Jesus is addressing here? If Jesus is God who was he calling the Father (God)? Was Jesus talking to himself? Or do you mean to say that Jesus is his own son and his own father? :confused: Or Jesus was pretending not to be God when he prayed to the Father? God would not pray to himself would he? For one moment, don't let your faith cloud your ability to think rationally. Think logically and the answer is clear as crystal.

Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness where he fasted, prayed and was tempted by the Devil before beginning his ministry (Matthew 4:2).Who to? :confused:
If Jesus is God then who did he pray to? If Jesus is God, do you believe God to be so weak that the Devil thought he could try to tempt him?

What are the last words of Jesus?

Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

I took the Biblical references below from: CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY

Note the contradictions in the Bible below. May I ask which one of the following do you believe Jesus (PBUH) to have said? And why?

think about it here-------------

Matthew 27:46) - "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

(Mark 15:34) - "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" [/B]

[B](Luke 23:46) - "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last."

(John 19:30) - "When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit."



Which one is right? You cannot tell me, because the Bible is full of flaws and contradictions. What validity does a religion that cannot even answer the questions of it's followers have?

You must realise that in no way do muslims discredit the authenticity of the Bible in the times of Jesus (pbuh). But as you've seen for yourself, the Bible has changed over time, is full of human-error and simply doubtful as to what it's trying to preach.

See below. See how many times the Bible itself acknowledges Jesus's dependency on God.


"THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW"

The Temptation Of Jesus (4:1-11)



OBSERVATIONS FROM THE TEMPTATION OF JESUS

A. WE HAVE THE SAME ADVERSARY...
1. Jesus was tempted by the devil, and so are we - 1 Pe 5:8-9
2. The devil now directs his attention towards the disciples of
Christ - Re 12:17
-- We should not treat him lightly, for the conflict is real!
- Ep 6:12

B. WE HAVE SIMILAR TEMPTATIONS...
1. The lust of the flesh - e.g., immorality, especially when
young
2. The lust of the eyes - e.g., materialism, especially when
middle-aged
3. The pride of life - e.g., pride and arrogance, especially when
elderly
-- These we must overcome, if we wish to have the love of the
Father - 1 Jn 2:15-16

C. WE HAVE THE SAME TOOLS TO OVERCOME...
1. Jesus appealed to the Word of God, and so can we - cf. Ep 6:17
2. Jesus had faith in the plan of God (victory through
suffering), we need a similar shield of faith - Ep 6:16; cf.
He 10:35-39
3. Jesus undoubtedly prayed, for He taught us to use prayer in
overcoming temptation - Mt 26:41 -- The Word of God, faith, and prayer...against these the devil
has no chance!

D. WE HAVE SIMILAR BLESSINGS WHEN WE OVERCOME...
1. Jesus was administered to by angels, angels will carry us home
- cf. Lk 16:22
2. Jesus received wonderful blessings when He ultimately overcame
and ascended to heaven; He has promised similar blessings for
us - cf. Re 2:10,26-27; 3:21

Ep 6:16; cf.
He 10:35-39: Jesus has faith in the plan of God. This clearly demonstrates as God being a different entity to Jesus.

Furthermore, If Jesus is God then who did he receive blessings from when he ascended to Heaven? Was there another God? Doesn't the Bible teach to that there is only one God?

You may check all the quotes are taken from the Bible. Will you say, that certain things I've pointed out from the Bible are not true?
If you do I will ask you why you are following a religion that even you have no faith in?

Pay particular attention to everything that I've high-lighted.


peace be with you

I was raised a christian, but I soon left that religion behind me. And one of the main reasons was the trinity, it just does not make sense.

You say a person can be a father a son and husband at the same time, well thats a very nice comparison, but it is not sufiecient to explain the trinity. In fact it doesn't even relate to it at all. Being a father a son a brother and all other relationships you can come up with at the same time is not contradicting, because those words refer to relationships to difrent people. Being an omnipotence god; and being its son in human form; both at the same time IS contradicting.

Then some people say its like water, ice and gas. Well again, that's not good. water gas and ice are just human terms to refer to difrent conditions of a certain substance (H2O). Trinity refers to three difrent parts. As if a single deity is split in three. Each part with it's own charesteristics.

And why do christians believe in trinity, where does it come from? Only because Jezus was refered to as son of God in some scriptures? Well Look at your bible, there's an awfull lot of people who are refered to inthere as being son of God. In fact it is a continuance of a jewish terminology, to refer to the followers of God as "children".

Hello Prisoner of Joy,

the trinity I read the site it said you don't believe in the trinity? why is that? curious

To make a long story short, Muslims do not accept the Trinity because it is contrary to the Old Testament, New Testament, Qur'an, and logic itself. If you want to debate the trinity, let's discuss only the trinity; not salvation, atonement, etc. Bring me even a single verse from the complete Bible which contains the doctrine of Trinity. Show me how the trinity is logically coherent.

Regards

Hello, I quickly copy paste something you quoted above:
Jesus said: KJV---"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).

So who was this Spirit of truth?
If Jesus was prophesising that the Spirit of truth was to come, who was he referring to?
It cannot be himself - because he wouldn't have had the need to 'prophesise' the above; that is, something that would happen in the future.
Peace.

KJV Isaiah 48:16:
"I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

First of all this does not indicate that Jesus was divine or part of a trinity. Secondly the fact that God and his spirit are mentioned separately, does not show us that those are two different things. If there would be a verse saying: God, and all his grace…
Would then trinity become a quartet. The son (1) the father (2) the Holy Spirit (3) and his grace (4), just because in a source both are referred to separately? And I can think of a lot more divine features and characteristics that we could ad to this list. But does that mean that we have to split all these up?

NIV Isaiah 48:16
16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.

Here we have the same argument as before, and it’s even clearer then before. With his spirit refers to the method. Like I thought of it with my brain, I touched it with my hand; I saw it with my eyes. So I am a quartet by myself? Steve; his brain; his eye; and his hand.

KJV Then there is the baptismal formula:
"baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).
NIV Matthew 28:19
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Well first of all, wasn’t this written after the misinterpretation of trinity? People started baptizing in the name of these three because they believed in trinity, not the other way around, right? And even then, just because you do something in the name of three entities does not mean those three form a trinity.

JESUS -- That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said: KJV---"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).

Well he was trying to bring an end to some misinterpretations the Jews had, and tried to start a new beginning as a prophet reaffirming what was previously told. Being the beginning and the ending of something does not mean one is God, it depends on the beginning and the ending of what. Also, Jesus in that verse claimed so why? He said so because the lord told him so. The lord which is and which was and which is to come, the almighty.

HOLY SPIRIT -- Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:
KJV---"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).

Well that’s a matter of interpretation. One could say that that suggest that the spirit of truth is an entity by itself. But it could also be that in this sentence “the spirit of truth” is used to refer to God. So it’s just another name, not a separate entity.

With reference to God's creation the Father is the Thought behind it the Son is the Word calling it forth and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.

The thought equals the entity. I think therefore I am. The word is not Jesus himself just because he spread it. He is the medium through whom the word of the thought is sent. And the spirit is how the plans of God work out through his actions and through his believers. So Again, why worship three, when there is only one?

format_quote Originally Posted by lyesh

If you say that, Adam also didn't have a father just like Jesus! And Jesus had a mother, But Adam did not! So how come Jesus is God and Adam is not?

Quran was given to Muhammad. And no body can ever change it! But there are new testiments and old testiments of the bible. It keeps on changing!

If you Don't believe me, prove your word: Produce even one chapter of the Quran! Or bring a change to even one letter of the Quran! YOU CAN NEVER DO THAT!!!!!

For Allah would surely Guard the Quran!

And Allah has challenged you in the Quran:
23 And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.

24 But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.



so.... PROVE IT!!! change it!!! YOU NEVER WILL!!!!! :sister:

because Jesus is God, Adam was created BY God, he is not God

what do you mean it keeps changing?

[QUOTE=PRISONERofJOY12;134068]KJV
Isaiah 48:16:

"I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."


Hi again,


Ok, do you know what is going on here? Exactly the same thing as if I placed a half full glass infront of you and ask you what you see. You may see a half empty glass or a half full one. You are seeing what you want to see and ignoring everything else. For one moment imagine you have no faith. You are not a follower of any religion. Your mind is like a blank canvass. Now with the sharp clarity of clear thinking, read about the contradictions in the Bible. If you had already not believed in it, would you start you believe in it when you could see the errors for yourself?? Don't believe in something because you have been conditioned by your upbringing to do so. Use the power of wisdom to learn and make your own choices in life, not follow something because you have been made to do so.

I have given you quotes from the Bible that are contradictory. You made no comment whatsoever on them. Why not? Do you select bits of the Bible that you want to believe in and ignore the rest? I will paste them again for reference.


(Matthew 27:46) - "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

(Mark 15:34) - "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

(Luke 23:46) - "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last."


(John 19:30) - "When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit."


Do you ignore the contradictions above? It's obvious only one of them is right (if that) and the rest are not. But which one? So clearly three of these are wrong. You are looking at proof that the Bible is contradicting itself. Now having confirmed that these contradictions do exist, proof that the Bible is brimming with false statements, can you without a shred of doubt testify that the quote you gave is the true word of Jesus???????????????????????

A Book whose original word has been manipulated to negotiate the actions of it's so called followers, cannot be accepted as the word of God, as God would not contradict Himself!!! Given the above quotes all from the Bible, even you the follower of the faith cannot tell which one is true or false. This proves that much of what you are believing to be the truth, might be nothing but cleverly fabricated lies. How can any man or woman follow a Book whose statements cannot be confirmed as true or false???????????

I can prove to you right now that Jesus might not have said any of the biblical quotes above. How can I prove this? This is how... If those (or one of those) were the last words of Jesus, how did he write them in the Bible, when he was suppose to have died on the cross? Note: It says "And jesus said..........." If Jesus himself wrote it, it would've been "And I said........." So undoubtedly, someone else wrote them. So the Bible isn't even the Divine word of God but the incoherent penmanship of some Tom **** or Harry. I must also point out to you that Jesus used no word such as 'God'. Jesus spoke Aramaic, along with Hebrew and Greek. None of these languages contain the word 'God'. Now Note, even in 2 of the above verses from the Bible, Jesus is supposed to have addressed God with the name 'Eloi'.
Similar to the muslim word Ilahi. The word God is an english word, a language that did not even exist in the Biblical times. Such is the translation of the Bible, that it cannot even give the correct name of the Creator. If I translated a script with your name in it, your name would remain the same, if changed it would not be your name at all, hence another ambiguous flaw.



In my earlier post I gave you other quotes from the Bible e.g

1. Jesus appealed to the Word of God, and so can we - cf. Ep 6:17

Does the above biblical quote ring any bells?

2. Jesus had faith in the plan of God (victory through
suffering), we need a similar shield of faith - Ep 6:16; cf.
He 10:35-39
Does 'Jesus having faith in God', not awaken in you the wisdom of being able to recognise the mentioning of two entirely different entities?

3. Jesus undoubtedly prayed, for He taught us to use prayer in
overcoming temptation - Mt 26:41 -- The Word of God, faith, and prayer...against these the devil
has no chance!

Unless a person cannot grasp the simple english language, the above quote suggests that Jesus prayed. I'm sure you agree that Jesus wasn't praying to himself but to God. If you still insist Jesus is God, then you're saying that Jesus was praying to himself. Doesn't that sound like you are making Jesus look like a man with a split personality? No, you're not saying that either? you don't think Jesus had a split personality?
So you agree he wasn't praying to himself? Then he was praying to God? You agree? So then Jesus is not God.


I know how hard it is to let go in believing something that has been drummed into us when we were too young to decide for ourselves. I'm not trying to convert you. I only want you realise that the Bible is not longer in accordance with the original teachings of Jesus (pbuh). Neither am I trying to erase the love you have in your heart for Jesus. I love Jesus too, because as a muslim I believe that Jesus is a beloved prophet of Allah. I love my religion because it acknowledges all the prophets that came to earth and not just our beloved prophet Muhammed (SAW).

Finally, I hope you can relate to this as this is my own experience. I was born and brought up as a muslim. Yet there were some aspects of my religion I could not understand as somethings did not make sense to me. I did not follow blindly because another muslim told me to do so. I sought answers to the questions I had in my head. I realised that the questions in my head were there due to my own lack of knowledge, not because of flaws in my religion.
Thanks to Allah, I found a scholar who cleared things which I did not understand. I felt somewhat ashamed of the few doubts I'd had yet enlightened by the knowledge I'd gained. I didn't believe because I was told to. I believe because I really believed.


peace be with you

you are right...though I am sure there are reasons in this.. like the words were speaken in a dialect of Aramiac, one of the languages commonly spoken in the Holy Land in Jesus day. They reveal how deeply Jesus felt his abandonment by God as he bore "the sin of the world" ( john 1:29; but see introduction to Ps 22 ).
it is finished. Apparently the loud cry of Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37. Jesusdied as a victor and had "completed" ( v. 28; the Greek verb is the same as that for "finished") what he came to do ( cf 17:4 ). gave up his spirit. An unusual way of describing death, perhaps suggesting an act of will
( cf. 10:17-18 )

Ep 6:17 notes: sword of the Spirit ... pray in the Spirit. Reminders that the battle is spiritual and must be fought in God's strength, depending on the word and on God through prayer

only have notes for verses 38 - 39: My righteous one will live by faith. see note on Hab 2:4.
10:39 shrink back and are destroyed. the opposite of "believe and are saved." The author is confident that those to whom he is writing are, for the most part, among the saved ( 6:9 and the notes )
my notes --- 6:9 confident of better things.... that accompany salvation. Although the author has suggested the possibility that some of his readers may still be unsaved, he is confident that God has been at work among them. changed lives and works of love (v.10 ) suggest that most of them were indeed regenerated.
Mark 14:38
fall into temptation. Be attacked by temptation. Here the temptation is to be unfaithful in face of the threatening circumstances confronting them. The spirit is willing. The expression is taken from Ps 51:12 ( see note on 51:10-12
Prayer for purity--- for a pure heart, a steadfast spirit of faithfulness and a willing spirit of service. These can be his only if God does not reject him and take his Holy Spirit from him. if granted, the joy of God's salvation will return to gladden his troubled soul.
).
When one's spirit is under God's control, it strives against human weakness.


God can be any where at one time... I would like to learn more about the qur'an please...

Greetings PrisonerofJoy
It seems you forget the first commandment. "Hear oh Israel, the Lord thy God is One." Most Christians nowadays do not say 'one', but 'Three'. And they base their assumptions on the ambiguous quotes you gave on the previous pages.
Did Jesus (peace be upon him), say "I am God, worship me."?. No. He never said that. In fact, when his disciples came to him, asking "Master, teach us how to pray" what did he say? He said say,
"Our Father, who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come (not 'My' kingdom come,he said Thy kingdom come)
[B]Thy[/B] will be done on earth (Not 'My' will be done, but Thy will be done)
As it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trspeass aginst us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom (Thine is the power, not 'mine' is the power)
The power and the glory
Forever and ever
Amen."
(Excuse this if there are any mistakes. I went to an Anglican school where this was taught, and I'm simply writing from memory.)

By saying that Jesus is also God, you forget one thing. God is free from human want - eating, drinking etc etc. To ascribe human needs to Almighty God, is certainly a serious act of blasphemy. Are you also telling us, that God goes to the toilet too? (Jesus ate and drank - the food had to go somewhere...) No, Almighty God is above all that you are associating with Him.

This is what you explained above: who can expect to understand God? He is beyond us.
Indeed, God has given us a mighty instrument, the brain. But it is limited, i agree with you there. But what God has revealed to us, it is not to confuse us. It is simple. Worship one God, without ascribing any partners to him. Unfortunately, centuries of 'trusted' people, changing and modifying the Bible from its original state have caused this confusion. The original version of the Bible, unfortunately, does not exist anymore. All these chages made have cuased so much confusion, that Christians have divided into many sects and use hundreds of different versions of Bibles.
It is also scary to see, that in many Christian churches, they erect statues of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and even statues of Jesus himself. Another commandment broken - "Thou shalt not make graven images."

We as Muslims believe in what was sent to the Prophet Jesus, as was sent to the Prophet Moses, that is, the Bible and Torah. However, the original versions only. We cannot agree to the changed and 'meddled-in' versions people read nowadays. We believe the Quran is the last testament, the final testament. We believe the Quran confirms what was originally revelead to Jesus and Moses before.

Peace to you