Christ in the Three Abrahamic Faiths

format_quote Originally Posted by mule

If you do not believe me then bring out the verse from your bible. Daniel in your bible reads very different.

Go ahead and bring the verse.

SpaceFalcon said that Christians translate from greek and Jews translate from original hebrew. (correct me if I'm wrong spacefalcon).

format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Haq

SpaceFalcon said that Christians translate from greek and Jews translate from original hebrew. (correct me if I'm wrong spacefalcon).

Quite, they translate from the Septuagint.

However in this case, it is simply a misunderstanding of annointed one. Again, Mule, you are confused. Every king is an annointed one.

As written by the great commentator Rashi:

26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.


"And after" those weeks.
the anointed one will be cut off Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.
"and he will be no more" Heb. וְאֵין לוֹ, and he will not have. The meaning is that he will not be.
"the anointed one" Heb. מָשִׁיחַ. This is purely an expression of a prince and a dignitary.
"and the city and the Sanctuary" lit. and the city and the Holy.
"and the people of the coming monarch will destroy [The monarch who will come] upon them." That is Titus and his armies.
"and his end will come about by inundation" And his end will be ****ation and destruction, for He will inundate the power of his kingdom through the Messiah, and until the end of the wars of Gog the city will exist.
"cut off into desolation" a destruction of desolation.

format_quote Originally Posted by mule

No at the front of the my bibles it says hebrew. How many different kinds of hebrew are there? When was the Septuagint translated?

It is a bad translation, done bad on purpose I might add. Jews were basically forced to translate it, so they put errors into it. Then there are additional theological errors christians put in, even in the "hebrew" translations. What is your version?

Why would that prophecy be by king Agrippa. King Agrippa was an unholy man.

But he was still KING And a KING is an ANOINTED ONE.

I am confused. Do you honor the Dead Sea Scrolls?

The dead sea scrolls were not in greek, they were in hebrew.

Let's get back on subject here.

What is the proof from Judaism, that Christ was a blasphemer?

Any stuff from here: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2...pic.php?t=1458

format_quote Originally Posted by mule

I have a hard time believing that the Jews would be that evil to put errors into the text. I think and believe that they would have more respect towards God.

Interesting that you put it that way. The reason for altering the translation was so that the whole torah would not be misused by the Pagans (at the time, greeks).

The only authoritative translations that existed for many years were the targums, and they are a bit inclined to say more than is written, usually adding in clarifiers.

The original septuagint was only a translation of the Torah, not of the prophets and writings and that reason is that the Sages would not allow the Prophets and Writings to be translated at that time.

The later translation of Prophets and Writings is practically apocrypha.

i know what the dead sea scrolls are. I am asking you if you believe that the scrolls are reliable?

They are reasonably reliable as historic documents, although they are probbly written to the opinion of the essenes that lived there.

format_quote Originally Posted by Anser Al-Haq

What is the proof from Judaism, that Christ was a blasphemer?

Also this: http://messiahtruth.com/sinless.html

nevermind :zip:

format_quote Originally Posted by mule

I don't buy it. But if I did it would make me question the honesty of any Jewish translation. How can I trust any Jewish translation if they are afraid I will misuse it?

The difference between then and now being that then only the Jews really knew hebrew and would teach hebrew to Jews. It would have been extremely difficult for a non-Jew to learn the actual translation. They just assumed they could force the Jews to translate it for them and that it would be right.
Now there are 2 reasons.
First, anyone can go and learn hebrew (as some christian scholars have to revise their bibles to be more true to the real hebrew text).
Second, permitted translations now exist because of the sheer number of Jews who do not understand hebrew (much like the existance of the aramaic targums for all the Jews because Jews then didn't know hebrew, knowing only aramaic instead).

The article you gave was very interesting, JoeJew.

i would like to discuss it with our Jewish and Christian members.

Part I & II:

********* Background

Why would the concept of a sinless Jesus be of interest to a Jewish person?* In principle, it should not matter to a Jew, since Jesus is irrelevant to Judaism – he is in the realm of Christianity.* The notion of Jesus being without sin is tied to the claim that Jesus died as a sacrificial offering to atone for the sins of humanity.* According to the laws of sacrifice in the Torah, a sacrificial offering had to be without blemish or defect.* Christian apologists and missionaries make the claim that the sinless Jesus satisfied this requirement, and that his "shed blood" covered the sins of mankind just as the blood of animal sacrifices atoned for the sinners in Biblical times.* This claim is a prominent component in the portfolio of Christian missions to the Jews.

This essay addresses the question: Was Jesus Sinless?* Since the analysis compares accounts from the New Testament against specific commands in the Torah, it should be noted that the Scripture in force during the lifetime of Jesus, including the time of his death, was the Hebrew Bible.

II.*********** Jesus and Being Sinless

For Christianity, the purpose of the Four Gospels is to testify that Jesus is the Christ (the messiah) and, as such, his sacred mission was to be the sacrificial offering that would make atonement for the sins of mankind.* Consequently, each Gospel climaxes with a narrative that recounts the historical events surrounding this atoning sacrifice.* According to Christianity, the central core of the Gospels creates the pivotal theme of the salvation brought by Jesus, mediated by the suffering and death of the sinless messiah.* This concept is perhaps best summarized by the following verse from the New Testament:

John 3:16(KJV) - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The giving here refers to the so-called sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross.

Christian theology holds that a sinless Jesus was part of the heavenly Father's plan from the outset, to redeem mankind.* After all, the act of disobedience by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, the Fall of Man, placed the stain of sin on humanity, one that cannot be removed through a person's own actions.* Jesus, the perfect sacrificial offering of the future, was born through the impregnation by the Holy Spirit of a virgin, Mary, who remained a virgin throughout the term of her pregnancy.* Mary gave birth to a child that was not blemished by the stain of Original Sin, since he was conceived of G-d and not through the customary act of copulation by two sinful humans.* Jesus allegedly remained without sin throughout his entire life, since he is said to have perfectly kept all the commandments and, therefore, fulfilled the entirety of the Torah's precepts:

Matthew 5:17-19(KJV) – (17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.* (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.* (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

With this passage as a backdrop, several accounts in the Gospel of Matthew are examined to test whether Jesus actually lived up to his proclamation.


Going on the premise that the historical Jesus existed, it should not come as a surprise that many statements attributed to him throughout the Four Gospels are consistent with Jewish teachings.* After all, it is likely that Jesus, coming from a family of Pharisees and being exposed to this tradition, held to it and practiced Pharisaic (i.e., Rabbinic) Judaism.* In fact, according to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus acknowledged the authority of Sages and Rabbinic Judaism of his day:

Matthew 23:1-3(KJV) – (1) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,* (2) Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:* (3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [See also Mk 10:17-19, Lk 16:16-17, Jn 14:21.]



Although Jesus viewed them as hypocrites, he nevertheless acknowledged that the Biblical authority rests in the hands of the Rabbis who, in his day, were the Pharisees.* The Four Gospels appear to indicate that Jesus instruct his followers to stop obeying the (written and oral) commandments.* While he may have had some issues with various aspects of the Law (Torah), it is understood that Jesus did not advocate doing away with it.* On the other hand, a close look at the Four Gospels reveals conduct and teachings ascribed to Jesus, which are at odds with Jewish Law.

I'll give my comments on it soon, insha'Allah.

I would like to introduce a different line of thought as to why Jesus was more then a prophet. The greater the task, the greater the preparation is involved, we see this all the time. If someone decides to go for a swim at the beach, about all they need a swim suit and some towels. If this same person wanted to explore the ocean two miles deep, then they would need an extraordinary expensive submersible and training in its use. There is a world of difference between the equipment and training involved for the person who goes camping in their backyard and the person who is planning to climb Mount Everest. Now to my point -

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

There has been no other prophet who was born by the power of the Holy Spirit but Jesus. This would strongly indicate that Jesus had a higher purpose for being then any other prophet. The Gospels tells of Jesus higher purpose while the Quran does not. The Quran has Jesus saying the same sort of teachings which it ascribes to all the other prophets. God does not miraculously intervene in human affairs lightly, Jesus would not of had a would not had a miraculous birth if there was no reason to. If all Jesus taught was what Mohammad did, then Jesus have been born just as Mohammad was.

greetings Sinner, Let's examine some of your points:

There has been no other prophet who was born by the power of the Holy Spirit but Jesus.

Actually, every human being recieves the Holy Spirit according to both the Qur'an and Bible:

Psalms 104:30 When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth

Now there is a distinction here between the Holy Spirit, who is Angel Gabriel, and the spirit God gives people, which is their soul.

Numbers 24:2 "When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"


Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into
the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."


Judges 6:34 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."


Judges 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."


Judges 14:6 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told
neither his father nor his mother what he had done."


Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house."


Judges 15:14 "As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands."


1 Samuel 10:6 "The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."


1 Samuel 10:10 "When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying."


1 Samuel 11:6 "When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he burned with anger."


1 Samuel 16:13 "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah."


Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary), and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."


Luke 2:25 "Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him."

So if Jesus is GOD because the Holy Spirit came upon him, then the others mentioned above should also be GOD Almighty too.

This would strongly indicate that Jesus had a higher purpose for being then any other prophet. The Gospels tells of Jesus higher purpose while the Quran does not.

And which is more logical? Is it logical that a simple man who never declared himself God but preached the oneness opf God, should suddenly be included in this grand and self-contradicting notion of trinity?

The Quran has Jesus saying the same sort of teachings which it ascribes to all the other prophets. God does not miraculously intervene in human affairs lightly, Jesus would not of had a would not had a miraculous birth if there was no reason to. If all Jesus taught was what Mohammad did, then Jesus have been born just as Mohammad was.

Is the virgin birth proof?

The Qur'an answered this 1400 years ago:
3:59 Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was.

It is like if I asked you that because Prophet Moses spoke to God in person, does this mean he is supernatural?

Or because Prophet Isaac was born to Abraham and Sarah when they were both very old, does this miracle make him supernatural?

Or the birth and blessings upon John the Baptist? Does that miracle make him supernatural?

Or the greatest kingdom was bestowed upon Prophet Solomon, and he communicated with all creatures, does this make him supernatural?

Or the fact that Prophet Muhammad ascended to God and led all the Prophets in this life or the next? Yet he is still no more than a Messenger.

Thanks for your ppost, Sinner.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sinner

The point I think you missed is that Jesus had no human father as Moses, Isaac or John the Baptist had.

That is true, but I pointed out their birth because it was also miraculous.

But I did give you an example of a birth without a father (infact without a mother as well), and that was the birth of Adam pbuh and the birth of Eve.

And the Qur'an clearly says that the likeness of Jesus pbuh in the sight of God is that of Adam.

Besides, these distinctions do not account for superiority as I mentioned other distinctions in my previous post which you failed to answer.

A greater distinction beween Jesus and any other prophet could not be thought up if one tried. If there is this wide gulf between Jesus and everyone else, it must of been that God had a greater purpose for Jesus as well.

no, not necessarily. I am not convinced that this distinction elevates his status. Other prophets were also favoured as I pointed out before.

In fact, Prophet Jesus himself said:
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11).

But John the Baptist was also humble. He did not claim that greatness for himself. He spoke of a greater one who was to come after him. He is quoted as saying:
After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie (Mark 1:7)

So the Prophets never claimed this kind of superiority. This is the work of human beings who attribute to Prophets what they did not teach.

Don't you find it a little strange that this huge doctrine of Christ's divinty was never explicityl mentioned by any of the Prophets? Don't you find it strange that you have to base this entire doctrine of the inferences made from a few verses in the later passages of the Bible?