Atonement

format_quote Originally Posted by POBook

What is your understanding of Jesus Christ as the atonement and sacrifice for the sins committed by every human being--sins a Holy, Righteous, Just, and Merciful GOD is going to hold to account?

Salam and Peace:

With all due respect, PO, do you really believe a Holy, Righteous, Just and Merciful God would torture and slaughter a sinless man so you could be forgiven? Why does God have to be portrayed as something less that what He is. He has the power to do anything He wants, which means he doesn't need someone else to die so you can be forgiven. He has the ability to forgive you on His own.

The message of Jesus, pbuh, was clear in Ezekiel 18:20 - "A chld shall not suffer for the iniquity of the parent, nor a parent suffer for the iniquity of a child; the righteousness of the righteous shall be his own, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be his own."

Jeremiah 31:30 - "...everyone shall die for his own iniquity."

Deuteronomy 24:16 - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, not sons for their fathers; each shall be executed for his own crime."

Jesus, pbuh, never taught anything remotely similar to original sin let alone Atonement. The concept of Atonement was a creation of Paul after Jesus, pbuh, was taken up.

You have to look at these things with an open mind and logic. Ask yourself WHY the creator of ALL things would have to resort to killing one of His creations in order to forgive sins??? Look at all He has created, every tiny detail, and yet they only way to forgive sins is to kill an innocent man?

Wasalam and Peace
Hana

salaam (peace) PObook
there some good talks/lecture here about jesus (peace be upon him)
http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.c...alks/jesus.htm
let me know what you think of them

peace

Hello POBook,
Thanks for starting the new topic for us . There are a number of issues we could discuss with respect to atonement.

You mentioned that you believe God came to earth and died in order to forgive His Creation. I have many problems with this idea. First, if God died, then what happened to the universe when He died? Who ran the universe? And if He was dead (i.e. ceased to exist) then how can He become alive again? Don't you find it self-contradictory believing that the immortal died? As Gary Miller (former Christian Missionary who converted to Islam) says, "You can say that Jesus is God, but then don't tell me he died. Or you can say that Jesus died, but then don't tell me he was God. You can't have both."

And if God intended to come to earth and die, then why didn't he submit immediately to the executioners? Why do we find passages where Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). How do we explain this passage in light of your claim?

And what exactly does this sacrifice accomplish? Which sins has Jesus paid for? All of them? The major ones? The minor ones?

One last thing: Suppose you hurt one of your friends. They say, "Don't worry POBook, I'm going to forgive you - But I need to punish you first." Does that make sense? No, because either they forgive or they don't forgive. If you forgive someone, then it means that you don't punish them. And if you punish someone, then it means you don't forgive them.

I look forward to your response.
Regards

format_quote Originally Posted by POBook

Salam


First, no--I know He did not torture and slaughter a sinless man so that I could be forgiven. Torture and slaughter was implemented by the religious leaders of Jesus day. Second, GOD Himself out of His great love for us, came to this earth in the form of a man--Jesus Christ--and sacrificed His life on my behalf; on behalf of the whole world.

Peace POBook:

Ummm, actually, according to Christianity God did do this. Most Christians will tell you this was a covenant....which doesn't make sense.....making a covenent with oneself. God, knows everything, nothing happens but by His will. If Jesus, pbuh, was beaten and slaughtered by the leaders of the day....then God intended for it to happen. But, to what end? Jesus, according to biblical text, was not a willing participant. He wasn't hi-fiving the Jews on the way to the crucifixion. He specifically asked to let the cup of death pass from Him, by the will of God. He prayed to God and asked "why hast thou forsaken me?" Did He forget His purpose, His covenant? If so, then surely He was not God. Sending an innocent to his death, doesn't sound very merciful to me. Where is the great love? What kind of love is it to kill a sinless man? What is the purpose in Jesus/God/Man sacrificing anything? And, as I mentioned, if Jesus were God, He forgot why He was here.

Yes, I agree with you. GOD has the power to do anything He wants. No, He does not need someone else to die for me so that I can be forgiven. Out of love for me, HE is the one who died for me, paying the penalty of my sin, and giving Himself the right to forgive me. He was Merciful and Just at the same time

Sorry, POBook, I fail to see the connection in God having to commit suicide, (which is exactly what it is when you take your own life), to forgive sin. He had to give Himself the right to forgive??? God, doesn't need His own permission to do something....sorry, that just makes no sense.

Please understand, if the Creator of all things resorted to killing one of His creations in order to forgive sins, He would be the most evil of all. He did not kill any of His creation. He gave up His rights in Heaven, came to this earth, dwelt among people, and allowed people to kill Him through them crucifying Him on the cross. He rose from the dead, gaining power and authority to forgive His creation who sinned against Him. He showed His justice and mercy together. I do not have to work hard to get to heaven--I cannot, as hard as a try, match GOD's standard. I simply accept His love for me, expressed through His death on the cross and His resurrection from the grave.

Ok, POBook, don't you see that that's exactly what doctrine says God did. The bible says, "God is not the author of confusion". Please look at what you just wrote. Your salvation is based on this?? Jesus, according to the bible, did not return to His disciples as a ghost either. He was very clear in trying to convince them He was NOT a ghost. There is a description in the bible defining spirit/ghost.....Jesus, at that time, did not fit that description in the least.

God gave up His rights in Heaven?? To whom did He give them up?? And this gave him power? Was he without power before??

POBook, I implore you to really look your bible with an open mind and research this doctrine. Use logic, not blind faith.

I apologize if I said anything harsh, it is not my intent. Sometimes words on the pc can appear to be more harsh than they are meant.

May Allah, swt, continue to guide us all to truth. Ameen

Another apology....can't figure out how to use quotes properly, will learn that for my next post, inshallah.

Peace,
Hana

Peace POBook:

Sorry about my delay in replying. Working and home stuff, takes all my time. lol

Well, POBook, regardless of who performed the atrocities, Paul would have you believe God meant for it to happen, allowed it to happen and wouldn't stop it when Jesus, pbuh, was suppose to have prayed. According to Christians, God planned and executed the slaughter. Remember, nothing happens except by His will.

How can you say Jesus, pbuh, didn't want to go through with it and then say He is God? Was He afraid? I don't think so. Yes, according to the Bible Jesus, pbuh, did pray, buy why? If you feel Jesus, pbuh, the Father and Holy Spirit are all encompassing....why pray? As I said, it sounds to me like God forgot the covanent He made with Himself.

Hosea 6:5-6: "...and My judgement goes forth as the light. For I desire steadfast love not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings."

Matthew 9:13 - "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'"

and you can read Mark 12:32-33, which says much the same.

Jesus, pbuh, never taught anything about Atonement, not once.

POBook, you are saying in one breath he prayed to let the cup of death pass...(and He was a man desperate to have it pass.) He prayed in the Garden AND on the cross. Then you quoted matthew 26:30, saying He could call on His father and His father would destroy them. He DID pray, nothing happened, He was tortured and slaughtered....a completely innocent man!! Quoting from Matthew 26:37-39 - "And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood falling down to the ground" My God, does that not sound like a man begging for His life? Imagine, God, begging and crying for His life? Astagfurillah.


I don't think any Christian believes in 3 seperate Gods, just one that divides Hiimself up for some unexplained reason that makes no logical sense whatsoever. Why would the creator of ALL things need His creations so badly, He would be willing to sacrifice an innocent? This is where logic takes over me. HE doesn't need us....WE need Him. What would be the purpose in relieving us of punishment, not having to answer for anything? What's the point?? I love Allah, swt, with every ounce of my being, but that alone will not be enough. Loving Him is also following what He commands...if you can't do that, why would you be a candidate for Paradise? As His creations, it is up to us to strive for Jannah, be accountable and take responsibility knowing you will answer for it one day. Don't leave it on the back of an innocent man. Especially when He said that's not possible.

You keep saying God Himself came took on the punishment of our sins, and the question still begs to be asked....WHY???? How would this benefit Him? He is the creator NOT the created. And Yes, God loves, God is merciful, God is just, etc., so why would He love and show mercy to those that don't show it to Him....OUR CREATOR!! He owes us NOTHING.....we owe Him EVERYTHING. Saying "oh Jesus, pbuh, already took my punishment for me, I don't have to worry" is a cop-out, in my humble opinion. Show the love you have for God, obey His commandments.

POBook, I know only too well how difficult it is to give up what we've grown up believing, trust me on that one. But, once you look objectively at what Paul is teaching compared to what Jesus, pbuh, taught, I have no doubt you will see the problem with Atonement and realize it was a creation of Paul, not Jesus, pbuh. In Islam we are told to research, ask questions, go seek the advice of those that are professionals in the field of biology, geography, etc. The Qur'an tells us to do that. The Bible tells you that God is not the author of confusion....but look at the confusion with which you are basing your salvation. Follow the commandments....that's all, nothing more.

I know this is long, sorry, lol. But, I do appreciate the respect you show while discussing, it's a sign of a strong charactor.

Take care and Peace,
Hana

Hello POBook,

format_quote Originally Posted by POBook

I'm not sure what you understand about the Trinity.

You will notice I never mentioned the trinity anywhere in the quote. I would have prefered to keep this debate centered on atonement itself as opposed to the trinity which deserves an entire thread on its own. With regard to the Trinity, I am more than familiar with the concept and the varying Christian explanations of it, having engaged in numerous debates over the subject with Christians.

Nevertheless, now that you have brought up an example for the Trinity, I think it is best if I comment on it now as oppose to later.

Consider this example. The sun is a trinity. It is the sun, which does not cease to exist. The sun is also heat for the earth. The sun is also light for the earth. Neither the sun, heat or light exist apart from one another. While light and heat serve different purposes, they are an intimate part of the sun. Light does not come from some other son and heat from still another sun. All three of these are together; they are one.

The problem with this explanation is that light and heat can be considered attributes or actions of the sun, but they themselves are not the sun. Light and Heat are both forms of energy given off by the sun as they are given off by other bodies. On the other hand, Christians assert that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct entities and that the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet, all together, they claim that there is still only One God.

The analogy with the sun doesn't work because we don't say that heat, light and sun are three distinct entities, but that heat and light are active properties of the sun.

For right now, consider this verse of Scripture from the gospel of John 1:1-2, 14, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD. He was with God in the beginning...The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us."

The problem I have with using this as evidence is that what are we to make of similar passages in the Bible where others are referred to as God?

In Exodus 7:1, we are told that the Lord God of Israel sent the Holy Prophet Moses (upon whom be peace) as “elohim,” meaning “God” (royal plural) unto Pharoah and Aaron as his Prophet. In Psalm 82:6, God tells His chosen Israelites: “I said: Ye are elohim, all sons of the Most High.” In I Corinthians 4:4 Satan is called “theos,” or God of this world.(Ataie, p. 8)

In the same way that the sun is not always seen, but continues to exist, GOD always exists, even though His light, to the world, Jesus Christ went through a time when he was not seen--he died on the cross. But as the light returns and the sun is once again seen, so Jesus rose from the dead. Even when light may not be seen, the sun coninues to provide what the earth needs to exist.

But you told me that God died for your sins. You didn't tell me that God hid or concealed or camouflaged Himself behind some clouds. When the sun passes out of our vision, that does not mean that the sun is dead, it just means that we can't see it. And when the sun is concealed it does not mean that it stops shining, it's just that we can't see it. But on the other hand, Christians say that God died (i.e. ceased to exist, became extinct) for their sins.

I understand that you have no respect for Paul, but for now, please allow me to quote from his letter to the Philippian church, chapter 2:5-11, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus, who being in very nature GOD, did not consider equality with GOD something to hold on to, but made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness, and being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross! Therefore, GOD exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of GOD the Father. We do not consider Jesus to be some god. To us, Jesus Christ was GOD in the flesh with a very definite purpose of redeeming man back to Himself.

I don't mind that you quote Paul, but it still doesn't answer my question. You believe God is immortal yet you say He died.

I'm not sure I can answer this question. I do know that Jesus was on the earth amidst people. We know of leaders today, for eg., who may commit crimes but it may take several years before the country can hold them to account or bring them before some kind of judicial system. In the eyes of these early leaders, Jesus was commiting the crime of blasphemy. In the eyes of the people under the leaders, Jesus was committing no crime. If these leaders immediately took Jesus into custody, they would take on a battle with their community they would not be able to fight. With time, the leadership of Jesus day was slowly able to bring Jesus into custody, have him condemned and sentenced to death and then very quickly carry out that death sentence of crucifixion.

But if the purpose of Jesus's coming was to die as God for the sins of man, then why didn't he materialise in front of the people and say something like, "Hello all. I am God. I have come to die for your sins so that I can forgive you. Please kill me." Why did he waste so much time beating around the bush?

The best way to understand this is in light of what I have explained to be the Trinity. While Jesus was fully GOD, He was also fully human.

Does that make any more sense than saying that earth is fully round and fully flat at the same time? If He was God, then He wasn't human, because by definition God is not human. And if he was fully human then he wasn't God, for the same reason. God is omnipotent, eternal, omniscient and a human is none of these things. How then are we supposed to understand Jesus? How is it conceivable that the same entitle can be fully God and fully human at the same time?

He went through the pain and suffering of crucifixion on our behalf. He took the sin of the world upon Himself. GOD had to forsake Him. GOD could not sit there in the presence of evil. This was the most heart wrenching moment in History. In His pure and untainted innocence, the Creator of this world took upon Himself the penalty of the world's transgression. He had to be forsaken. Would you be willing to be forsaken by your family for the benefit of your worst enemy? This is what GOD did for us.

So God asked Himself why He had forsaken Himself? Reminds me of how God sent God to the Mother of God to allow her to give birth to God.

In GOD's eyes, there are no big sins or small sins; no good sins and no bad sins. GOD sees the sinful human nature that exists in all of us. Excuse this crude example, but just like you get blackheads and pimples of different shapes, sizes, and colors, they are come from an infected pore in the skin. We are all infected pores that manifest themselves in different ways. What does sacrifice accomplish? Sacrifice accomplishes the penalty. The penalty of our human nature as sinful people is hell. We all know that. If a sacrifice could be offered to ATONE for our payment, then one could be made. GOD sacrificed Himself (the death of Jesus Christ) on the cross to ATONE for our punishment. We can humble accept the gift of His atoning sacrifice or we can reject it. The choice is up to us.

I understand that, but you said that God did this in order to gain the authority to forgive our sins. So now, which sins are forgiven? If it is every kind of sin, as you seem to suggest, then does that mean we can do whatever we want in the world?

If not, then why not? If I take you to a resteraunt and tell you that you can eat whatever you want because I've paid for your food, then would it make sense for me to tell you, "Don't eat this" or "Don't eat that". If God paid for the sins, then He has paid for the sins and there's no reason why we can't sin.

Regards

Bro Ansar and peace POBook:

I was driving home from work when I realized I had wanted to respond to POBook's analogy of the sun and didn't do it.

You said almost exactly what I was going to say. lool

And quite right, the Sun, light and heat cannot operate independently. If you take one away the rest is useless. The sun, only as a whole unit, performs these functions. So, really, POBook described very well what Muslims have always said, God is ONE, indivisible, uncomparable and stands alone. If you take away a part of God, (i.e. Jesus, pbuh), then He becomes less than God. Just as if you take away one part of the sun, it is no longer the sun. And, also remembering, there is only ONE God, but far more than one sun.

So, POBook, bro Ansar is perfectly correct that your analogy won't work and trust me when I tell you, you will never find one that will. Nothing is comparable to God. But, if you put away blind faith, and look at things with a complete open mind and logic, I am confident you will see that the idea of Atonement and trinity is totally fabricated by Paul and never taught by Jesus, pbuh, or God.

May Allah continue to guide us all to truth. Ameen

Wasalam and Peace,
Hana

[QUOTE=PrIM3;153925]Good job PObook.
Good luck

Peace PrIM3:

If there is something you would like to add, please feel free

Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by PrIM3

the wages of sin is death... so when Christ died on the cross.. it was like the law of sin got corrupted..

so a sinner can't take another sinners sin away but someone who is sinless blaimless can..
kind of like this parable:
a person digs a whole to get rid of his trash the whole is filled up with his trash.. so he is not able to help another person.
but someone who dug a whole that is big enough for everyones trash can..

Peace PrIM3:

errrmmmm....the wages (payment) of sin is death and when christ died on the cross, the law was corrupted? corruption is a sin. So God had to sin to forgive sin? And, by logic....Jesus, pbuh, didn't die sinless....He died with the sins of the world on Him....who forgave Him those sins? Don't you see the circular logic here?

No need to dig big holes to bury sin when you just claim them and sincerely seek forgiveness. What is the purpose in allowing another man to carry sin? Jesus, pbuh, said you couldn't do that anyway.

PrIM3: Please explain WHY God would need to kill an innocent man....using logic, not analogy. We can create analogies for everything in life and eventually someon will just blindly accept it....but that doesn't make it truth. When answering, please keep in mind that God said He was not the author of confusion, so this should not be a difficult task.

Thank you for responding and peace,
Hana

Peace PrIM3:

Ummmm, no offense to you and not to be disrespectful, but your analogies don't make sense to me.

Jesus bears the penalty of sin in place of His people. He also redeems us from lawlessness and makes us long for good works in service to God and others...

Yes, I know that's what you believe, but I'm asking for what purpose? What's the purpose in sending an innocent, sinless man, to endure torture and eventual slaughter? God is more than capable of forgiving sin or disposing of those that are evil. He took a sinless man, gave him the sins of the world and killed him so you wouldn't have to be responsible for your actions???

Peace
Hana

format_quote Originally Posted by PrIM3

The Son of Man...[came]to give his life as a ransom for many.(Matthew 20:28)..

God warned us back in the garden that the price of our mistrust and disobedience would be death... Not just a physical death, but a spiritual death--- to be seperated from God and life and all the beauty, intimacy, and adventure forever. Through an act of our won free will, we became the hostages of the Kingdom of Darkness and death. The only way out is ransom.

from what it that says the purpose is to free our Spiritual bodies from death.


another parable--
satan is holding us in his hands... then God lovingly comes and says here take me... and let my people go.. then satan not knowing what God is doing agrees.. since satan wants to kill God ( that is all satan is looking at I get to kill him )... so then satan kills God.. but then 3 days later he raises up and shows the people that satan is not even strong enough for Him.

Well, Jesus, pbuh, didn't die and become a spirit. After he was "resurrected" He faced his disciples as a man....not a ghost. No spiritual death there....so now what? So YOU were disobedient, YOU sinned, YOU neglected God's commands....so to fix that He opted to kill an innocent man? :eek:

Now Satan is tempted God????? What are you talking about??? The bible says God does not tempt, nor is He tempted. Don't forget, satan is also a creation of God!

Really, you're using too many parables and analogies....I'm a very logical person....that stuff doesn't work for me. Speak logic....THAT I can understand. lol Don't get wrapped up in all this other stuff....just speak, plain and clear.....as it should be. Not everything needs an analogy.

Peace
Hana