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    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures. (OP)


    Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family) in the Bible.

    by Dr. Zakir Naik



    Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) in the Old Testament:

    The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

    "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".


    1. Muhammad (Peace and blessings be upon him) Prophesised in the book of Deuteronomy:

    Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (peace be upon him) because Jesus (peace be upon him) was like Moses (peace be upon him). Moses (peace be upon him) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (peace be upon him) was a Jew. Moses (peace be upon him) was a Prophet and Jesus (peace be upon him) was also a Prophet.

    If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
    Moses (peace be upon him) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (peace be upon them all) will
    fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.


    However, it is Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who is like Moses (peace be upon him):


    i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

    [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


    ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

    iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive.
    (4:157-158)


    Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is from among the brethren of Moses (peace be upon him). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (peace be upon him) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (peace be upon him) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (peace be upon him).


    Words in the mouth:

    Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

    "I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    [Deuteronomy 18:18]



    iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

    v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
    people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

    iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).


    2. It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19

    "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."



    3. Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

    It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

    "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."


    When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".


    4. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) mentioned by name in the old testament:

    Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

    "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."


    "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."


    In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is yet present.



    To Be continued...
    Last edited by - Qatada -; 07-04-2006 at 01:30 PM.
    | Likes Aamir Bozdar liked this post

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by - Qatada - View Post
    I don't need to answer according to the logic you've provided, the answers simple - the Qur'an and Prophetic guidance is the Criterion to what is correct since these are the only authentic religious texts by God remaining on earth.


    Obviously this is coming from an Islamic point of view, so i don't expect you to believe that. However, this is the Islamic stance.



    Regards.
    That's all I needed to know that you don't need to answer. Thanks. What do you think of Dr. Zakir Naik's comments?

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Are there any other places in the bible that calls the ishmailites "bretheren' of the israelites?

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    You haven't answered to the logic I have provided. According to Dr. Zakir Naik the old testament has full of wrong or misguided information. So if there is wrong information, why would we use it to support our (Muslims') beliefs? You would rather stick to one conclusion, either Bible is the true God's word and yes what it says is true or Bible is bogus and we should read only the teachings from Quran. Have I made myself clear? I hope so. Thanks.
    Hi

    Are you familiar with the scholarly opinions on the formation of the current books in the Bible attributed to Moses?

    That will shed some light on how Muslims can say there is some truth and some falsehood.

    You stated:

    So if there is wrong information, why would we use it to support our (Muslims') beliefs? You would rather stick to one conclusion, either Bible is the true God's word and yes what it says is true or Bible is bogus and we should read only the teachings from Quran.

    Why only those two options, what about this third option,

    The Bible might contain truth passed down in traditions but might also contain falsehood? If that is the case then a Muslim can still find the truth in the Bible and discard the falsehood.

    Bible is not from God, Bible has false information, Bible contradicts itself, Bible misinforms, Bible gives misinformation about Jesus' death and ressuraction, Bible is two faced, Bible mentions Muhammed, therefore Muhammed is a prophet.

    The Bible we have now might not be from God but some of the information contained on it might have come from a source which was from God. Let me give you the example,

    I write a book on religions, I quote the Qur'an.

    Now my book is not from God, but some of the content of my book is from God, if you take that to mean that my quotation is from God.

    So if the traditions which were used in compiling the Bible are true and from God then why cant Muslims use them as evidence? It might be true that the rest of my book is not from God but the quotation or the source I used in some areas is God's word.

    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  6. #104
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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    Hi

    Are you familiar with the scholarly opinions on the formation of the current books in the Bible attributed to Moses?

    That will shed some light on how Muslims can say there is some truth and some falsehood.

    You stated:

    So if there is wrong information, why would we use it to support our (Muslims') beliefs? You would rather stick to one conclusion, either Bible is the true God's word and yes what it says is true or Bible is bogus and we should read only the teachings from Quran.

    Why only those two options, what about this third option,

    The Bible might contain truth passed down in traditions but might also contain falsehood? If that is the case then a Muslim can still find the truth in the Bible and discard the falsehood.

    Bible is not from God, Bible has false information, Bible contradicts itself, Bible misinforms, Bible gives misinformation about Jesus' death and ressuraction, Bible is two faced, Bible mentions Muhammed, therefore Muhammed is a prophet.

    The Bible we have now might not be from God but some of the information contained on it might have come from a source which was from God. Let me give you the example,

    I write a book on religions, I quote the Qur'an.

    Now my book is not from God, but some of the content of my book is from God, if you take that to mean that my quotation is from God.

    So if the traditions which were used in compiling the Bible are true and from God then why cant Muslims use them as evidence? It might be true that the rest of my book is not from God but the quotation or the source I used in some areas is God's word.

    Your last few lines are kind of humorous.
    "Now my book is not from God, but some of the content of my book is from God, if you take that to mean that my quotation is from God."

    Now let me get this straight. You are saying, the passages that might refer to Muhammed, those are from God and the passages that talks of other things, are not from God. What makes you think that you know which are from God and which are not? Tell the truth, I think you have a time machine.
    All we know is God is infinite and we are finite creatures. Have you heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Please do a research on it. It proves that Bible is authentic God's word and it was not manupilated. Again, please do a check on the Dead Sea scrolls. Thanks.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Please visit this link and find out if prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is prophesized in the Gospel of John or not.


    YOU BE THE JUDGE!

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm
    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    “The servants of the Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’” 25:63

    “The world and all things in it are valuable; but the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman" Hadith

    www.-----------------------

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    pbhowmik's Avatar
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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by khairullah View Post
    Please visit this link and find out if prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is prophesized in the Gospel of John or not.


    YOU BE THE JUDGE!

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm
    Thank you for your link you posted. One thing that makes Dr. Zakir Naik looks like he is the winner of the debates he is in: he gives so many information, out of which most of the information are un related and simply baseless. Just because many people don't have manipulative minds like him or scholars like him, they don't go researching to see if he is right or wrong. Based on the information in the link you have provided, the information on that website is no different. First of all, one thing, Christians don't believe in Muhammad being a prophet or he is ever mentioned in the Bible. The verses the Muslim scholars always quote are not referring to Muhammed (a wishful thinking). Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit. Christians believes in the trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). That doesn't necessarily mean that God gave birth to Jesus. To understand the whole meaning of the trinity, one needs to read the entire Gospels. You cannot just go on Google and search how to attack Christians, but rather read each Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and you will understand the meaning. Of course you would be interested to read Acts afterwards along with the letters of the Apostles to answer your other questions. One thing about the Bible, it speaks the truth. What that means is, if the people of the lord during the Bible time made any mistakes (disobeyed the lord) it was mentioned in the Holy Book, not hidden or manipulated. The Bible teaches us right verses wrong. It teaches us how to live our lives and what are the consequences we have to face for living a sinful life. It does not teach us to attack other religions' faith or contradicts others' holy books. The Bible is from God, which was with God beginning of time, and it was revealed to us and was fulfilled through Jesus Christ. To understand the Bible, one should read it own self.

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    Umar001's Avatar
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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    Your last few lines are kind of humorous.
    "Now my book is not from God, but some of the content of my book is from God, if you take that to mean that my quotation is from God."
    Glad you find it funny, at least this life isn't all misery for us humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    Now let me get this straight. You are saying, the passages that might refer to Muhammed, those are from God and the passages that talks of other things, are not from God. What makes you think that you know which are from God and which are not? Tell the truth, I think you have a time machine.
    I'm saying there might be passages which have truth and some which have falsehood. Logically speaking then there might be passages which do speak about Muhammad amongst the truthful ones. Theologically then one would see a benefit for God to do that.

    Do you find it that hard to believe? Interesting. I don't know why you would. The concept is pretty simple and the probability is possible. But you seem to be in a habit of taking extremes, one or the other type of mentality when it suits you, type of like the 'Jesus Lord Liar or Lunatic' thing, very restrictive. I am not saying, nor have claimed that the only truth is the passages which might refer to Muhammad, nor have I claimed that all the passages refering to Muhammad have been preserved.


    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    All we know is God is infinite and we are finite creatures. Have you heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Please do a research on it. It proves that Bible is authentic God's word and it was not manupilated. Again, please do a check on the Dead Sea scrolls. Thanks.
    Hmm, The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible is God's word? Why don't you provide a reading reference for me of books and some websites and I will do more reading. I wonder how they prove it. And I do not think the Dea Sea Scrolls even have any NT writings, so thats the crucial part of the Bible which Christians believe missing, so howdo they prove that the NT is GOd's word and hasn't been changed.

    Maybe you should do some reading too. Also be reasonably objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    The verses the Muslim scholars always quote are not referring to Muhammed (a wishful thinking).
    They do not? And you say this based on what knowledge? You must have reasons to reject the idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    To understand the whole meaning of the trinity, one needs to read the entire Gospels. You cannot just go on Google and search how to attack Christians, but rather read each Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and you will understand the meaning.
    I've done that, and far from being confronted with a triune God I found one God within the pages. Don't assume everyone is on the attack bro.

    Since you disagree that there are any reference to Muhammad, please, show us the composition theories of how the Torah and the 4 Gospels were composed.

    Sweet Regards,

    Eesa
    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

  11. #108
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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    But you seem to be in a habit of taking extremes, one or the other type of mentality when it suits you, type of like the 'Jesus Lord Liar or Lunatic' thing, very restrictive. I am not saying, nor have claimed that the only truth is the passages which might refer to Muhammad, nor have I claimed that all the passages refering to Muhammad have been preserved.
    I don't understand where I was taking extreme. I am not quoting Quran, but instead the Bible (not even quoting). Therefore, I don't think it's anything extreme. I am not sayng anything that suits me, but of course that makes sense. Not necessarily making in to a translation which I am comfortable with. In the Bible it is mentioned by Christ to beware of false prophets. I have posted that, but you have taken that off. I don't know why. It's not off topic at all. Because Bible specifically warns that there will be people claiming to be prophet safter Jeusus Christ ressurect and we should be aware of them. Bible tells us that there will be Holy spirit sent amongst us after Jesus is raised to heaven and that is what Jesus talks about. Bible also talks about Ishmael being an wild a-s-s of man in the wilderness and will be against eveyone and everyon against him. These are the words from the Bible and it's strange to see when we question the authenticity of Islam or Muhammed, the Muslims doesn't come back with a logical answer. Instead they want to hang that person, kill that person (the newspaper article in Europe) and trie to go in to Bible and Torah to find our faults. Why don't we look in to Quran and understand its purpose and meaning first and answer with logics? Not going and attacking and being EXTREME.

    Hmm, The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible is God's word? Why don't you provide a reading reference for me of books and some websites and I will do more reading. I wonder how they prove it. And I do not think the Dea Sea Scrolls even have any NT writings, so thats the crucial part of the Bible which Christians believe missing, so howdo they prove that the NT is GOd's word and hasn't been changed.
    Along with Christians, Jews also believes in the prophet Isiah and other prophets in the OT. They also believe that these prophets were inspired by God. But before the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, people used to think that whatever the prophets have written, it was edited for the advantages of mankind. When the scrolls have been found, it was matched with the books we have in the Bible and they were word for word (Hebrew and other ancient languages). Therefore, the OT was not changed in later years. Now let's come to the NT. You said the Christians believe in NT for their faith. If that was the case, we would have only New Testament as our Bible. Because OT is as much as important as NT, we must have both parts in the Holy Bible. Of course NT talks about Jesus, but OT does too. OT talks about Jesus coming (From Genesis to Malachi), not necessarily literarily , but gives tons of indications. You have mentioned NT not being in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Of course it was not and it is not necessary to prove the autheticity of NT. Because there have been many documents found which supports the events that had happened during the NT times. The Jews kept records of all events including the crucifixion of Jesus. Of course they recorded it as he was punished and crucified because he was accused of blasphemy and they don't accept him as the Messiah.

    There is a lot I can offer you to prove the autheticity of NT, but we have only so much time in our hands. I will post more in the future if necessary. Remember one thing though, we as Christians believe that the main purpose of the Bible is John 3:16, which talks about love of God towards mankind. You can only win one's heart through love, not force or logic. Because logic is created by human for the purpose of twisting the truth, but love came from God and it is more important. If logic and argument was more important then we should stick to what the scientists say "there is not god".

    Thanks

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    Umar001's Avatar
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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    I don't understand where I was taking extreme. I am not quoting Quran, but instead the Bible (not even quoting). Therefore, I don't think it's anything extreme. I am not sayng anything that suits me, but of course that makes sense. Not necessarily making in to a translation which I am comfortable with. In the Bible it is mentioned by Christ to beware of false prophets. I have posted that, but you have taken that off. I don't know why. It's not off topic at all. Because Bible specifically warns that there will be people claiming to be prophet safter Jeusus Christ ressurect and we should be aware of them. Bible tells us that there will be Holy spirit sent amongst us after Jesus is raised to heaven and that is what Jesus talks about. Bible also talks about Ishmael being an wild a-s-s of man in the wilderness and will be against eveyone and everyon against him. These are the words from the Bible and it's strange to see when we question the authenticity of Islam or Muhammed, the Muslims doesn't come back with a logical answer. Instead they want to hang that person, kill that person (the newspaper article in Europe) and trie to go in to Bible and Torah to find our faults. Why don't we look in to Quran and understand its purpose and meaning first and answer with logics? Not going and attacking and being EXTREME.
    ME? I have deleted what? If you did not mean me, please make that clear lest others think that I have been unjust to you.

    Maybe you have misunderstood, one of the problems with discussions is that more often then not people forget to listen but take one word, skim read and then assume what was said.

    When I spoke of your extremity, I was speaking on the style in which you posed possabilities. For example, you said;

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    You would rather stick to one conclusion, either Bible is the true God's word and yes what it says is true or Bible is bogus and we should read only the teachings from Quran. Have I made myself clear? I hope so. Thanks.

    This is the type of extreme I spoke of, if you read my writing properly you will see that I also gave a famous example of how other do this, with the question,

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi View Post
    type of like the 'Jesus Lord Liar or Lunatic' thing, very restrictive.
    The reason I said it was extreme is because such questions do not take into consideration other possabilities, like me asking a friend, 'is your mother out of prison yet, Yes or No?' Rather I should give other options as answers for example, the option to say that she has never been in prison. In the above example, the fourth option could be, Jesus Lord, Liar or Lunatic? Or Lied Upon, you see how it works? That's the extreme I spoke of.

    As for the rest of your speech about logical answers and so forth, I have spoken to you about the compilation and sources of your books, why have you not told us? Tell us the theories, I mean to know if a hypothesis, like the Muslim view that there could be some truth and falsehood in the Bible is plausible one needs to know the history of the Books right? Well tell us the history. Or do you find that illogical, and humorous?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    Along with Christians, Jews also believes in the prophet Isiah and other prophets in the OT. They also believe that these prophets were inspired by God. But before the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, people used to think that whatever the prophets have written, it was edited for the advantages of mankind. When the scrolls have been found, it was matched with the books we have in the Bible and they were word for word (Hebrew and other ancient languages). Therefore, the OT was not changed in later years.
    Give us the dating of the Dead Sea Scrolls, give us the background of them, just little more information.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    Now let's come to the NT. You said the Christians believe in NT for their faith. If that was the case, we would have only New Testament as our Bible. Because OT is as much as important as NT, we must have both parts in the Holy Bible. Of course NT talks about Jesus, but OT does too. OT talks about Jesus coming (From Genesis to Malachi), not necessarily literarily , but gives tons of indications.
    Well I never said Christians believe in the NT for their faith solely, I just mentioned that it is a crucial part of it. As for the OT speaking of Jesus I guess one can get that interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    You have mentioned NT not being in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Of course it was not and it is not necessary to prove the autheticity of NT.
    Oh, but you see, when you say Bible people might think the Bible, not just the OT, and as you said Christians need both. We need to try be accurate bro.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    Because there have been many documents found which supports the events that had happened during the NT times. The Jews kept records of all events including the crucifixion of Jesus. Of course they recorded it as he was punished and crucified because he was accused of blasphemy and they don't accept him as the Messiah.
    Well there are no contemporary evidences of Jesus from outside Christianity, so what do you mean? The NT by large cannot be verified of its accuracy, mistakes and truth has been found in there. Mark had a poor palestinian geographical knowledge according to some Scholars. So if anything this shows that there is right and wrong in there, my position all along.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    There is a lot I can offer you to prove the autheticity of NT, but we have only so much time in our hands.
    Make a thread and provide all you want and can in a discussion. As long as it in sincere and genuine.

    Quote Originally Posted by pbhowmik View Post
    You can only win one's heart through love, not force or logic. Because logic is created by human for the purpose of twisting the truth, but love came from God and it is more important. If logic and argument was more important then we should stick to what the scientists say "there is not god".
    Well not all scientist say that, and logic/reason doesnot twist truth, but rather twisted reason twists truth. I try love God with all my heart and mind. I put my faith in Him, but I place it in Him through understanding. Meaning I decide through knowledge to follow God and thus have blind faith in Him. They work hand in hand.

    So yes, back to topic, show us why there cannot be some truth and some falsehood in the Bible, tell us the Biblical History of compilation.

    Eesa
    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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  14. #110
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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Based on my memory, which might be a little rough, but is still going to be close....

    What was found regarding the scroll of Isaiah is that prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest extant copy of a scroll of Isaiah dated from 800 AD, and was of the Masoretic text family. Now, the community in Qumran were essenes and did not use the same set of texts that became the Masoretic text. Yet, among the scrolls found there was a text of Isaiah, dated to 200-250 BCE, that was found to be "nearly" identical, not "exactly" identical to the 800 AD scroll. The differences were not large passages, but simple phonetic markings regarding pronounciation that did not even result in producing a different translation when translated into English. So, that's a 1000 year period of time, and two different families of text, with little to no variation noted.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Now, the community in Qumran were essenes
    This is only a theory they were Essenes, most likely they were not.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by khairullah View Post
    Please visit this link and find out if prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is prophesized in the Gospel of John or not.


    YOU BE THE JUDGE!

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/prediction.htm
    \


    I have visited this and answered it many times. There is NO REFERENCE to Muhammad in the Gospel of John. Those that think there is simply do not know how to properly interpret Greek. It is as if they strained a grapefruit to get grape juice.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-24-2007 at 07:03 PM.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talha777 View Post
    This is only a theory they were Essenes, most likely they were not.

    OK. It is only a theory that they were essenes. The comparison of the two sets of text is NOT theory, but simple, observable, documented fact. You may interpret it to mean whatever you wish, but the fact remains that over the passage of 1000 years of history we have two texts and they are close enough they could have been made on copy machine, but for the obvious differences in penmanship.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    Couple of Points.

    1.Dead Sea Scrolls don't seem to contain much to do with any texts that the we are speaking of.

    2.More talk on the Dead Sea Scrolls which isn't on Muhammad in the Bible maybe should be done in a different thread.

    3.We have still to discuss whether the compilation method of the Bible allowed for corruption of terms and exegetical statements to be attributed to Jesus.
    Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    The reference to the Dead Sea scrolls is only to the degree of care taken to avoid allowing corruption of the scriptures -- e.g. the 1000 years difference in two extant copies of Isaiah with little to no corruption of the text.


    As to whether the method of compilation could have allowed for corruption of terms and exegetical statements being attributed to Jesus. It most certainly could have. Indeed I would allow that it did. One illustration. Matthew understands Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel. So, he reads the old Hebrew prophecies in this light. A passage that had one meaning when it was written he then reinterprets as also referring to Jesus. Then when he reports on that passage, rather than quoting it from the Hebrew scriptures, since he is writting his gospel in Greek, he quotes from a Greek translation of those scriptures. Both of these things allow for the meaning of a term to take on a new meaning. Of course, I would say that Matthew intends for us to understand this new meaning that he is intentionally giving to the term. Thus, the "young woman" (the meaning of the term "almah" in Hebrew, though many English translations say "virgin" because that is also the usual connotation behind the term, even in Hebrew) of Isaiah 7:14 simply becomes "virgin", with all doubt removed, when Matthew applies the verse to his telling of the story of Jesus birth (Matthew 1:23). Matthew has done two things:
    1) he has taken a story that was written for a different specific context and applied it to the life of Jesus.
    2) he has taken a word that was possible to use in multiple ways and removed all ambiguity from it.
    Does that corrupt the term? I would agree that it does. Does it mean that Matthew has corrupted the story of Jesus birth? I would say, No, for Matthew is not trying to preserve Isaiah, but to tell Jesus' story which is what he has done.

    That is just one illustration, doubtless there are countless others, of how terms might have been corrupted. But, I do think that what was written by Matthew and the other Biblical writers reflects their own unique understanding of what was true with regard to God, God's story, and God's interaction with his people. The key for us then is to make sure that we don't ourselves begin to put our understanding of terms to the text unless we can also be sure that they are the understanding held by the biblical writers. Terms like "the only begotten son of God" are a good example of this. The term doesn't have anything to do with biological procreation, and thinking thusly leads one to an erroneous understanding of the early church's view of Jesus. Refernces that are today made to fit Muhammad, such as in the above provided link, are similar misreadings of the text, and alterings of the Biblical terms and their meanings to substantiate a belief system that the Biblical writers themselves never espoused.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 12-24-2007 at 07:30 PM.

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    Post Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougmusr View Post

    Just as Jews do not believe Christ was a prophet, and Muslims do ot believe that Jesus was the Son of God, Christians do not believe Muhammad was a prophet.
    Being the son of Allah and being The messenger of Allah r 2 different things. Muslims believe in all the messengers of Allah . And muslims also believe tat Jesus(p.b.u.h) was Allah's messenger. Bible was the word of Allah but there hav been many changes in it. and nowhere did Jesus(p.b.u.h) said that he was the son of Allah. It is no more than a misconception. and further more i think christians shud not forget those Rahabs(priests) who at the time of Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) did accept him as Allah's messenger and also said tat "truly The coming of Muhammad(p.b.u.h) and his being the last Prophet was also predicted in the Bible and by Jesus (p.b.u.h) himself"

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by capri View Post


    Being the son of Allah and being The messenger of Allah r 2 different things. Muslims believe in all the messengers of Allah . And muslims also believe tat Jesus(p.b.u.h) was Allah's messenger. Bible was the word of Allah but there hav been many changes in it. and nowhere did Jesus(p.b.u.h) said that he was the son of Allah. It is no more than a misconception. and further more i think christians shud not forget those Rahabs(priests) who at the time of Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) did accept him as Allah's messenger and also said tat "truly The coming of Muhammad(p.b.u.h) and his being the last Prophet was also predicted in the Bible and by Jesus (p.b.u.h) himself"

    With respect, I think that those Rahabs you refer to were in error, serious error, as is your own understanding of the nature of changes that have taken place in the Bible and of Jesus' comments with respect to his own divinity.
    Last edited by Grace Seeker; 01-30-2008 at 08:01 PM.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in other Scriptures.

    I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him
    It would be proper to read more than a single texts to substantiate a specific interpretation of a text. Read the following with it, and you will realise that the text cannot refer to Mohammad:
    Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    With respect, I think that those Rahabs you refer to were in error, serious error, as is your own understanding of the nature of changes that have taken place in the Bible and of Jesus' comments with respect to his own divinity.
    well u can understand this also tat the Bible is not the word of Allah anymore, there r more than 1 additions of Bible and each one is different from the other. so if an error was present it would be present now rather than hundreds of years ago. when there were not much changes.

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    Re: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) Prophecised in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by capri View Post
    well u can understand this also tat the Bible is not the word of Allah anymore, there r more than 1 additions of Bible and each one is different from the other. so if an error was present it would be present now rather than hundreds of years ago. when there were not much changes.
    Not really. All of the 'proper' versions (ignoring such things as easy reading editions, children's editions etc.) are still generally translated from the best, and earliest, Hebrew and Greek texts that have been preserved. In that respect, oddly enough, rather more and better quality 'original' sources were used for the more modern translations than for, say, the King James version.


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