I had asked you the question, “Why do you believe Christ never died on the cross?” This was your response:
“Ohhhh, all the reasons are far too numerous to mention here, but to name a few: 1. Not ONE single eye witness to this “miraculous” event. All his disciples forsook him and fled"- (Mark 14:50).”
I assume if you accept as truth certain verses from the gospels, you also accept as truth all verses of the gospels? Yes or No?
Concerning Jesus death on the cross:
Mat 27:62 The next day, which followed the preparation day, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate
Mat 27:63 and said, "Sir, we remember that while this deceiver was still alive, He said, 'After three days I will rise again.'
Mat 27:64 Therefore give orders that the tomb be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, His disciples may come, steal Him, and tell the people, 'He has been raised from the dead.' Then the last deception will be worse than the first."
Mat 27:65 "You have a guard of soldiers," Pilate told them. "Go and make it as secure as you know how."
Mat 27:66 Then they went and made the tomb secure by sealing the stone and setting the guard.
Concerning Jesus death on the cross:
Mar 15:39 When the centurion, who was standing opposite Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "This man really was God's Son!"
Mar 15:40 There were also women looking on from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
Mar 15:41 When He was in Galilee, they would follow Him and help Him. Many other women had come up with Him to Jerusalem.
Mar 15:42 When it was already evening, because it was preparation day (that is, the day before the Sabbath),
Mar 15:43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Sanhedrin who was himself looking forward to the kingdom of God, came and boldly went in to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body.
Mar 15:44 Pilate was surprised that He was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him whether He had already died.
Mar 15:45 When he found out from the centurion, he gave the corpse to Joseph.
Mar 15:46 After he bought some fine linen, he took Him down and wrapped Him in the linen. Then he placed Him in a tomb cut out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the entrance to the tomb.
Concerning the death of Jesus:
Joh 19:32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and of the other one who had been crucified with Him.
Joh 19:33 When they came to Jesus, they did not break His legs since they saw that He was already dead.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out.
Which of these verses do you believe and which ones do you not believe?
“2. Jesus, pbuh, never taught it or talked about it.”
Mat 17:8 When they looked up they saw no one except Him--Jesus alone.
Mat 17:9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."
Did Jesus never talk about it?
Mar 8:31 Then Jesus began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, be killed, and rise after three days.
Mar 8:32 He was openly talking about this. So Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him.
Did Jesus never talk about it?
Luk 18:31 Then He took the Twelve aside and told them, "Listen! We are going up to Jerusalem. Everything that is written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.
Luk 18:32 For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and He will be mocked, insulted, spit on;
Luk 18:33 and after they flog Him, they will kill Him, and He will rise on the third day."
Did Jesus never talk about it?
Joh 12:32 As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to signify what kind of death He was about to die.
Did Jesus never talk about it?
“He faced His disciples “after” as a man.”
“After” what?
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself handle me and see; for A SPIRIT has no flesh and bones, as you see me have. . . And he showed them his hands and his feet." Luke 24:39-40.”
There is a context to this verse and it’s found in vs. 37: “But they were startled and terrified and thought they were seeing a ghost.” Jesus had risen from the dead, something no one believed would happen. So when they saw Him, resurrection from the dead was the last thing in their minds. He had to be some ghost. Jesus was pointing out that he was back the way He had left them.
“And here are other verses that show He most certainly did try to defend Himself:
Before Pontius Pilate: "My kingdom is not of this world" — (John 18:36).”
How do you see this as self-defense?
Before the Sanhedrin: "... I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, where the Jews always gather; and in secret have I said nothing…If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil, but if well, why smitest thou me?" John 18:20, 23.
I don’t think you can say this is self-defense. The man who had just struck Jesus in the face for the way he had answered the high priest, demanded an explanation: “Is this the way you answer the high-priest?’ he demanded.” Out of respect for this man who hit him, Jesus answered the question.
“You haven’t offended me at all, but I doubt God is too happy being compared to one of His creations. Yes, Jesus, pbuh, was a man. One of the greatest Prophets, chosen by God to bring His message.”
What’s your understanding of this verse: “If you really knew me (Jesus), you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and you have seen Him” (John 14:7)?
What is your understanding of this verse: “Jesus answered, ‘Don’t you know me Philip, even after I have been among you for such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father living in me, who is doing His work” (John 14:9-10)?
What is your understanding of this verse: “’The Father and I are one.’ Again the Jews picked up rocks to stone Him. Jesus replied, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. Which of these works are you stoning Me for?’ ‘We aren't stoning You for a good work,’ the Jews answered, ‘but for blasphemy, because You--being a man--make Yourself God.’”
Based on your beliefs and understanding, if you were with these Jews during this time, do you not think you would have joined them in picking up rocks to stone Jesus Christ? These men who wanted to stone Jesus to death believed Him to be exactly who you believe Him to be—a great prophet who did many good works. But Jesus made Himself to be GOD. Would you not seek to stone Him to death as well?
Again, thanks for your continuing dialogue. Please know that I am not trying to convert you to Christianity. I want to respect your choice to be a Muslim and I want to know and understand your logic and way of thinking.
I assume if you accept as truth certain verses from the gospels, you also accept as truth all verses of the gospels? Yes or No?
Never assume anything. Lol Who said I accepted those as truth? I’m showing you the inaccuracies in your beliefs from your own bible. Why would I show you from the Qur’an when you don’t believe the Qur’an is from God? There is NO proof this event ever took place and as a matter of fact, if you researched, you will find more evidence suggesting it never happened at all.
Concerning Jesus death on the cross:
As I said the disciples of Jesus were not eye-witnesses or ear-witnesses to the actual events of the previous three days, as attested to by Mark who says that at the most critical point in the life of Jesus: "they all forsook him and fled." (Mark 14:50).
All the knowledge of the disciples regarding their Master was from hearsay. They had heard that their master was hanged on the cross; they had heard that he had given up the ghost; they had heard that he was dead and buried for three days. After hearing all that they would have every reason to believe He was dead, so it explains why they were scared to death when they saw Him in the upper room. They thought they were looking at a ghost!
Concerning the death of Jesus: John 19:32-34
When John says that the soldiers "saw" He was dead, he means that they assumed. Did they use a stethoscope to verify death? Did anyone touch his body or feel his pulse before making the decision that "he was dead already"?
So, as per the ways of crucifixion in those days….the legs of the other 2 men were broken, but amazingly, the legs of Jesus were not. They ASSUMED He was dead, but weren’t absolutely convinced, because what did they do next? They stabbed Him with a sword. According to the Encyclopedia Biblica, under article "cross," column 960, that "Jesus was alive when the spear was thrust". But why the "Water and the Blood"? Dr. W.B. Primrose, a Senior Anaesthetist of the Glasgow Royal Infirmary, gave his expert opinion: In the "Thinkers Digest", London, Winter 1949 issue, he said that "THE WATER WAS A RESULT OF THE NERVOUS UPSET OF THE BLOOD VESSELS LOCALLY DUE TO THE OVER-STIMULATING EFFECT OF THE SCOURGING BY STAVES". This may be an extreme case, but so was his sweating, like "great drops of blood, falling down to the ground", when Jesus was in agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. Medical authorities also confirm the latter phenomenon. (quoted from Ahmed Deedat)
Which ones of these verses do I believe?? LOL Not a one.
Mark 9:9 (you used Mat. 17:8, but I was researching Mark so used his verse. Both are the same though, I’m sure you won’t deny that. lol ) As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."
Luk 18:31 Luk 18:32 Luk 18:33 Joh 12:32 Joh 12:33
Surely you will agree that you are told in your bible that Jesus “spoke not to them (meaning the public) without a parable; but he explained everything secretly to his own disciples” (Mark 4:34)
This is very clear. It says He explains everything clearly to His disciples so they will understand. Here are the verses that followed:
“And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean” (Mark 9:10, NKJV). “So they kept it to themselves, but they often asked each other what he meant by “rising from the dead” (Mark 9:10, NLT).
“And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken” (Luke 18:34, NKJV). “But they didn’t understand a thing he said. Its significance was hidden from them, and they failed to grasp what he was talking about” (Luke 18:34, NLT).
“But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him” (Mark 9-32, NKJV).
Why do you suppose the disciples didn’t understand what Jesus was talking about….when, according to your beliefs, THIS is your salvation!! I’m sure they were thinking exactly like I’ve been trying to tell you as well as others here. What kind of Messiah is this, this God (as you would say), that could be killed. So, they were totally perplexed. Yet, again, Christians of today are claiming they know better than these men who supposedly knew Jesus and were taught by Jesus??
Mar 8:31 Then Jesus began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, be killed, and rise after three days.
Mar 8:32 He was openly talking about this. So Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him.
Did Jesus never talk about it?
With regards to verse 8:31…These are not the words of Jesus…this is a story teller’s version of events. Would you want me to believe stories from someone 80 – 100 years after your death, or would you prefer I were able to read your own words recorded by trusted sources? I’m sure you can understand my point here.
18:32 Just curious as to why you didn’t include verse 18:33 which finishes off this verse?? In this verse Jesus calls Peter Satan and tells him he is speaking of things that were created of man and not of God.
“After” what?
After the “resurrection”.
There is a context to this verse and it’s found in vs. 37: “But they were startled and terrified and thought they were seeing a ghost.” Jesus had risen from the dead, something no one believed would happen. So when they saw Him, resurrection from the dead was the last thing in their minds. He had to be some ghost. Jesus was pointing out that he was back the way He had left them.
Exactly my point, POBook. He was not resurrected, He was very much alive. You can’t have it both ways.
“A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:39)
'neither shall they die any more' (Luke 20:36) meaning that the resurrected persons will be Immortalised. Which means they will be like the angels. No food, no drink, etc. You cannot die twice because that would mean there is a contradiction in the bible: 'ordained unto all men is to die ONCE, then the resurrection' (Heb 9:27).
So, if Jesus was raised immortal, there is not need for him to eat or drink or have anything to sustain life. So, through His own words in your bible, He was very much a physical body….not spiritual which means, He didn’t die.
How do you see this as self-defense?
According to the verse I quoted from your own bible Here is one verse of the bible: "to the slaughter like a lamb, like a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth" - (Isaiah 53:7)., Jesus, never opened His mouth to say anything. He just tottled off to wherever He was led.
John 18:20-23 contradicts that. He most certainly did open His mouth in His defence. He tells them plain and simple, I have always spoken openly and taught in the synagogue and the temples where the jews gather. I didn’t say anything in secret. If you have a witness to say different bring him, but if you don’t, why are you doing this to me?”
You can call it whatever you want, but to me, when a man is on trial and he says that, he’s trying to defend himself.
What’s your understanding of this verse: “If you really knew me (Jesus), you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and you have seen Him” (John 14:7)? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? “’The Father and I are one.’
John:14:7….First He is referring to the message God sent him to give. Secondly, by John saying that “you have seen Him” contradicts the bible. John 1:18 – No man hath seen God at any time. Also 1 Timothy 6:16 and Exodus 33:20 which says “And he (God) said, Thou canst see my face; for there shall no man see me, and live.”
If you are to believe that Jesus was, literally in the Father and vice versa, then you must also believe the disciples were all Gods too. John 17:20-22 – "That they all may be ONE as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us…I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in ONE."
It meant nothing more than a common purpose…not essence.
Jews answered, ‘but for blasphemy, because You--being a man--make Yourself God.’”
Based on your beliefs and understanding, if you were with these Jews during this time, do you not think you would have joined them in picking up rocks to stone Jesus Christ? These men who wanted to stone Jesus to death believed Him to be exactly who you believe Him to be—a great prophet who did many good works. But Jesus made Himself to be GOD. Would you not seek to stone Him to death as well?
Jesus, never made himself out to be God. Quite the opposite. Christians see his words as the way to salvation, the Jews at the time saw it as blasphemous. The Jews wanted to cause trouble and were looking for it. John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? He is quoting from Psalm, 82:6: I have said, Ye are gods: and all of you are the children of the most High.” So, He’s saying, If God called them gods, and the prophets of God were called gods, and if good men, holy men were also called gods in your own books why are you telling me I am any different when I refer to myself as a son of God.
He made no claim for Himself at all, just as the prophets before him didn’t.
Again, thanks for your continuing dialogue. Please know that I am not trying to convert you to Christianity. I want to respect your choice to be a Muslim and I want to know and understand your logic and way of thinking.
You are more than welcome. I don’t worry about someone trying to convert me, not to worry. I studied far too long to know I could never go back to Christianity. I never speak with someone with the motive to revert them. Education breeds tolerance and if you can have a better understanding of Islam, then Alhamdulillah for that. It’s important we all learn to, at the very least, tolerate each other and accept our differences. What amazes me so much between Christianity and Islam are not the differences, but the similarities. As a good brother once told me, “that’s because we are fed from the same spring.” (Meaning the same God.)
Peace
Hana
Last edited by *Hana*; 01-16-2006 at 03:57 AM.
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
The existence and the death of Jesus by crucifixion are accepted by nearly all historians.
Why did the Quran borrow the Docetian idea that it was an illusion of Jesus that was on the cross ?
Maybe the Christian elevation of Jesus to deity influenced the writers of the Quran in such a way that they could not accept the death of Jesus on the cross, or, more likely, it was to deny the resurrection.
The existence and the death of Jesus by crucifixion are accepted by nearly all historians.
Why did the Quran borrow the Docetian idea that it was an illusion of Jesus that was on the cross ?
Maybe the Christian elevation of Jesus to deity influenced the writers of the Quran in such a way that they could not accept the death of Jesus on the cross, or, more likely, it was to deny the resurrection.
The existence and the death of Jesus by crucifixion are not accepted by nearly all historians. My statement holds just as much validity as yours I suppose. Now what?
If refutation were the topic, I could go on about the unknown writers of the bible borrowing the 3-in-one concept, with tons of proof, from other beliefs at the time, however, this is not the topic of this conversation.
Before you go to the refutation area of the forum to discuss your allegations, you might want to go with your proofs of who these alleged "writers" of the Qur'an" are.
Hana
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
Why did the Quran borrow the Docetian idea that it was an illusion of Jesus that was on the cross ?
PROVE that the Qur'an borrowed a Docetian idea. You can't! Besides, you have just committed an example of circular reasoning! If what the Qur'an says is true then it is only LOGICAL that there were others who had this same belief from the time of Jesus. Thus you have just refuted yourself by admitting that the Qur'anic account was accepted by groups that came before and that there was a dispute about the fate of Christ.
Maybe the Christian elevation of Jesus to deity influenced the writers of the Quran in such a way that they could not accept the death of Jesus on the cross, or, more likely, it was to deny the resurrection.
The Qur'an had no reason to assert that Christ never died. It could simply have stated that he was a prophet who was killed, like many others. The fact that it doesn't actually disproves your claim.
Regards
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Just recently, there was a big controversy here in Sweden where I live, when a historian named Roger Viklund wrote in Aftonbladet (one of the biggest newspapers in Sweden) that there isn't enough evidence to show that Jesus existed at all. To the contrary, he claims that the evidence indicates that he didn't exist at all.
This stirred a big controversy and recently, Swedish state television (SVT) broadcasted a live debate between Roger Viklund and some opponents.
You persistently attack islam mansio and you persistently defend Christianity, although you claim that you are not a Christian. I am not suggesting anything here, but it is unfortunate that you resort to lies in your defense of Christianity and attacks on Islam.
If God has the power to create the universe and life, it follows that he would also have the power to resurrect life after death, and that is what we believe as Christians. Can we prove it, and the answer has to be no, we can only believe and have faith.
What amazes me so much between Christianity and Islam are not the differences, but the similarities
We can live with the similarities but it is the differences that cause us grief, and I am more interested in trying to understand how we can live with our differences in peace.
As a good brother once told me, “that’s because we are fed from the same spring.” (Meaning the same God.)
I believe in one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, so when I walk down the High street I see a part of Gods creation and I cannot really tell if the people I see are atheist, Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Jew. What I do know is they are all created by the same God, and we each have a duty of love and care towards all of Gods creation.
[Yusufali 19:33] "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
Isa (as) hasn't died yet. There will be a time, and Christians will agree, that Isa (as) will return. When he returns, he will die, and be ressurected with the rest of us on the day of Judgement.
If God has the power to create the universe and life, it follows that he would also have the power to resurrect life after death, and that is what we believe as Christians.
Eric, Muslims also believe life here on earth is not only temporary, but very brief. Like you, it is also the eternal life in Paradise that we hope to achieve.
We can live with the similarities but it is the differences that cause us grief, and I am more interested in trying to understand how we can live with our differences in peace.
Why should our differences cause you grief? It is the lack of tolerance and education that creates problems. There are both good and bad Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc., but if you look at one, and judge them all you learn to become intolerant. If you take the time to learn the differences you obtain tolerance and you can only do that through education.
I believe in one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, ...they are all created by the same God, and we each have a duty of love and care towards all of Gods creation.
You see, exactly my point....similarities. I hope you understand that Muslims are taught this very thing. Oneness of God, the creator of ALL things. Caring for our fellow man is not limited to Christians. Muslims MUST do that. Do we all show that caring all the time? No, we don't. Do all Christians, nope. Do I believe the vast majority do....absolutely!
I don't know how much you know about Islam, but I think you would be surprised to learn how closely Islam, Christianity and Judaism is related. Contrary to what many believe, we all worship the same God.
Take care and Peace,
Hana
Last edited by *Hana*; 01-16-2006 at 11:33 PM.
"Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good" (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, nor touched...but are felt in the heart.
-Helen Keller
I believe in one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, ...they are all created by the same God, and we each have a duty of love and care towards all of Gods creation.
You see, exactly my point....similarities. I hope you understand that Muslims are taught this very thing. Oneness of God, the creator of ALL things. Caring for our fellow man is not limited to Christians. Muslims MUST do that. Do we all show that caring all the time? No, we don't. Do all Christians, nope. Do I believe the vast majority do....absolutely! I don't know how much you know about Islam, but I think you would be surprised to learn how closely Islam, Christianity and Judaism is related. Contrary to what many believe, we all worship the same God.
Reminds me once when the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said to a companion who was travelling to another country: -
"Remember, the people you deal with are either your brothers in religion or your equal in humanity"
According to the Quran - Jesus (as) was never crucified
Secondly there are no proofs present that Jesus even existed according to Anthropologists. They carbon dated the famous "shroud of jesus" present in the Vatican and proved it was a fake. Neither any artificats are present which have been proven to belong to any person called Jesus.
Furthermore the words of "jesus" are so few in the bible that it seems as he is the one speaking the least in the bible and all the others, mark mathew, etc etc are speaking on behalf of him.
Even furthermore historians record the bible as the work of the Church and not Jesus or any divine creation.
And lastly the Bible IS the work of human hands, if you want proof just read this thread: Christianity is Manmade PROOF
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I studied far too long to know I could never go back to Christianity. I never speak with someone with the motive to revert them. Education breeds tolerance and if you can have a better understanding of Islam, then Alhamdulillah for that. It’s important we all learn to, at the very least, tolerate each other and accept our differences. What amazes me so much between Christianity and Islam are not the differences, but the similarities. As a good brother once told me, “that’s because we are fed from the same spring.” (Meaning the same God.)
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