What Is Christianity?

Yeah I read yuo loud and clear. I think this is a problem that all religions which feed on "mysticism" have. We can see the same with Sufi Muslims. The more you leave room for personal interpretation, the more that people will expand the religion and insert their personal views.

copy paste:
Some mystic traditions use jokes, stories and poetry to express certain ideas, allowing the bypassing of the normal discriminative thought patterns. The rationality that confines and objectifies the thinking process is the opposite to the intuitive, gestalt mentality that the mystic is attempting to engage, enter and retain.

By developing a series of impacts that reinforce certain key ideas, the rational mind is occupied with a surface meaning whilst other concepts are introduced.

Hey Hope you are well,

What I meant, was reffering to, was the fact that Jesus is reported to have said by John that the Holy Spirit will lead into all truths or that it will guide you. Now, this same Holy Spirit is used as an authority by alot of Christians, so I have Christians claming to me that Jesus is God saying that the Holy Spirit is helping them, then you have Christians saying Jesus is not God saying the Holy Spirit is helping them. You see what I mean? And this can be done with alot of topics.

format_quote Originally Posted by ddz

Your right in saying that, and there are different beleifs held by Christian Denominations today, its all a little daunting at times I know hehe but I agree with Abdul Fattah in the sense that when people interperate Jesus' Teachings and what the Bible says, different Denominations then become present, a Protestant will tell you So and So.. and a Catholic will tell you So and So.. and it can be done with a lot of topics with a lot of different opinions, having said that, these denominations may have different beleifs upon what Jesus had to say etc.. but im sure all in all their ulterior motive is to teach their followers to lead a good life in that they worship God Almighty and Love one and other and be at peace.

Yes, the problem would be in then stating, who is God? What is a good life? And many other possible questions. God would seem to have left the religion so open to interpretation, to alteration. That's what worries me.

The fundamental Christian doctrine is quite simple really.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

The differences lie in ritual and the importance of works vs. faith. The Catholic/Protestant schism did not come about over a difference in doctrine, but the corruption of the Catholic Church i.e. the selling of indulgences and other issues.

The fundamental Christian doctrine is easily recognized, and those who do not follow the fundamental doctrine are easily recognized.

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

The fundamental Christian doctrine is quite simple really. ..

Hi Keltoi
Under your defenition of christianity it might be simple. But other Christian denominations disagree with some of the things you listed as fundamental, which was the whole point that brother Al Habeshi was trying to make in the first place.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah

Hi Keltoi
Under your defenition of christianity it might be simple. But other Christian denominations disagree with some of the things you listed as fundamental, which was the whole point that brother Al Habeshi was trying to make in the first place.

Other christian denominations like...? Just please dont tell me about mormons or Jeahova Witnesses who are not christians.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85

Other christian denominations like...? Just please dont tell me about mormons or Jeahova Witnesses who are not christians.

Unitarians also and many of the denominations that became extinct shortly after the council of nicea. As for jehova's witnesses and mormons, the main reason they aren't considered christians by the other denominations is because they don't believe in the trinity in the first place. So that's a bit of circular thinking there:

1. All Christian denominations accept the trinity.
2. all denominations that don't accept the trinity aren't christian.

Maybe you need to define Christianity then. Doesn't the word suggest those who allegedly follow the teachings of Jesus Christ? don't Mormons as well as Jehovah's witnesses believe to be following the teachings of Jesus? Of course you might reply that their view on those teachings is wrong, but I (as well as they) might argue the same thing about your view. Eitherway even within catholic and reformed Christians you'll find many people who don't believe in the trinity, original sin, and the savior concept. I know because I talked to many of them =)

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

The fundamental Christian doctrine is quite simple really.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

The differences lie in ritual and the importance of works vs. faith. The Catholic/Protestant schism did not come about over a difference in doctrine, but the corruption of the Catholic Church i.e. the selling of indulgences and other issues.

The fundamental Christian doctrine is easily recognized, and those who do not follow the fundamental doctrine are easily recognized.

Well, would you say that someone who does not believe in Jesus being God of God is not a Christian?

The problem is that according to them you are not a Christian, and you both have equal power, either of you can claim to have recieved revelation from the Holy Spirit, and thus have the same authority.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85

Other christian denominations like...? Just please dont tell me about mormons or Jeahova Witnesses who are not christians.

This is exactly the problem, you dont think they are not Christian, but they are, well, according to the Holy Spirit which speaks to them. Now, you may not believe that, but then again if the Holy Spirit is telling them to do what they do then how can you say they aint Christians?

Also, what defines Christian according to the Bible?

Even within the realms of Christianity in our time, forget the early days, there is great diversity.

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

This is exactly the problem, you dont think they are not Christian, but they are, well, according to the Holy Spirit which speaks to them. Now, you may not believe that, but then again if the Holy Spirit is telling them to do what they do then how can you say they aint Christians?

Also, what defines Christian according to the Bible?

Even within the realms of Christianity in our time, forget the early days, there is great diversity.

Neither Mormons nor Jeahova's Witnesses call themselves christians. They actually cut off themselves from christianity.

In catholicism you have not only Bible but also so called tradition of the Church. Its like Quaran and Sunna in sunnism. You have catehism, which says who is and who is not a christian.

I think that this issue easier than you show it. Catholics, orthodoxes and protestants make up about 95% of christians of evern more. And you focus on marginal sects which dont even call themselves christians.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85

Neither Mormons nor Jeahova's Witnesses call themselves christians. They actually cut off themselves from christianity.

By Christian I appealed to the meaning of the word, as commonly understood, follower of Christ, not the name as a title. The JWs or Mormons may not call themselves by that title, but they do appeal, at least JWs, to the meaning, i.e. belief that they are following Jesus the Christ.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85

In catholicism you have not only Bible but also so called tradition of the Church. Its like Quaran and Sunna in sunnism. You have catehism, which says who is and who is not a christian.

Well, the tradition is more like the Athar/Khabar (sayings of other than the prophet, companions and so), the Sunnah is apparently contained in the Bible. Now, the problem is that everyone claims to be following the Bible but interprets it differently, in Islam the interpretation is restricted, where as in Christianity it is very open, this is one of the contributing factors to the diversity of those who claim to follow Jesus.

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85

I think that this issue easier than you show it. Catholics, orthodoxes and protestants make up about 95% of christians of evern more. And you focus on marginal sects which dont even call themselves christians.

It is not about the quantity, as the Bible reports Jesus to have said, many take the wide road. What I am saying is that we cannot distinguish the correct followers of Jesus. The amount of people that follow a particular style is not, generally, indicative of the truthfullness.

Kelts summary is pretty much it for all christians.
Some might beleive in the Rapture, some Transubstatiation, some Creationism...but what Kelt said is the fundamentals.

(One point though...why do we need words like "Sitteth"?)

format_quote Originally Posted by barney

Kelts summary is pretty much it for all christians.

If a person came upto you and told you he believed in three seperate Gods, and told you he was a follower of Christ a Christian, would you be able to say to him. YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN?

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

If a person came upto you and told you he believed in three seperate Gods, and told you he was a follower of Christ a Christian, would you be able to say to him. YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN?

Yes, because we(catholics,orthodoxes and protestants) believe in one God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah

Hi Keltoi
Under your defenition of christianity it might be simple. But other Christian denominations disagree with some of the things you listed as fundamental, which was the whole point that brother Al Habeshi was trying to make in the first place.

I agree that it is probably quite difficult to refute Christianity, in the sense Al Habeshi is indicating in his OP.

And the reason may be that the Bible (and therefore the interpretation of Christians of it) is much less prescriptive and much more open to interpretation than the Qu'ran is.
I see in this forum, how much confusion that causes in Muslims, and how it is perceived to be a weakness.
Compared to the Qu'ran that may be ... the Qu'ran is much clearer (not totally unambigious in some areas, I don't think, but generally much more defined than the Bible is) in what the do's and dont's are.

We have said it a hundred times in this forum - but that is not how the Bible is meant to be read.

Strangely I find the openness of the Bible a real strength - in the sense that it causes me to read, ponder, compare, discuss, read again, pray over, read again, pray some more ... (you get the idea )
I do not just follow the book, I also need to look within myself, I need to listen to my own conscience, I need to listen to God's spirit within me. It is much more than just following an instruction manual!

As a consequence of Christians doing all the above, we come to have so many denominations.
Again, I don't see that to be a weakness. In the past as well as now, there have been people saying 'I don't agree with you on such-and-such ... I think it is so-and-so' ...

But as Keltoi so nicely points out, our differences are not as important as the basic premise of the Christian faith, which most denominations agree with (and those who don't are very much on the fringe of the Christian religion, if indeed still part of it ...)

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

The fundamental Christian doctrine is quite simple really.

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

The fundamental Christian doctrine is easily recognized, and those who do not follow the fundamental doctrine are easily recognized.

With regards to wishing to refute Christianity - why should that be so important in the first place?
How about 'To you your religion, to me mine'?

Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah

Hi Keltoi
Under your defenition of christianity it might be simple. But other Christian denominations disagree with some of the things you listed as fundamental, which was the whole point that brother Al Habeshi was trying to make in the first place.

There are no CHRISTIAN denominations who disagree with that doctrine. If they do, they are not Christians at all but some other religion. As has already been mentioned, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians, they are offshoot sects with a different faith system altogether.

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi

There are no CHRISTIAN denominations who disagree with that doctrine. If they do, they are not Christians at all but some other religion. As has already been mentioned, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians, they are offshoot sects with a different faith system altogether.

Yes, different faith system according to you, but they also base their religion on the bible and their belief in the holy spirit who guides people, don't they? They also claim to be following "Christ" In a way couldn't they be considered Christians then? Or does your denomination have exclusive copyrights on that word? ^_^

Anyway, lets forget about terminology and back on topic, why should people accept that the holy spirit is a genuine source for your denomination, but not for others?

If someone would ask me an analogue question, like why this Islamic denomination and not another, I could point out many contradictions and inconsistencies with the many sects which show that although most rely on the qur'an, they still haven't got the same authority to speak in the name of Islam. But that is a method that is not open to christian denominations since there cannot be any "inconsistency" behind the big veil of mysticism. Since All denominations allow free interpretation of scripture, you cannot render another denomination as false for it's interpretation, even if it is the opposite of your interpretation!

format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85

Yes, because we(catholics,orthodoxes and protestants) believe in one God.

What if they asked: 'provide evidence that I (JW) am not a follower of Christ.

format_quote Originally Posted by glo

With regards to wishing to refute Christianity - why should that be so important in the first place?
How about 'To you your religion, to me mine'?

Peace

Ah, I dont want my family going hell that's why.