Jesus and Muhammad

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

As Salam Alaykum,

I thought I'd stick this in the Da'wah section but then I thought maybe here would be better, if the mods would like to change the place feel free to do so and sorry.

I was wondering if it was possible to compile teachings attributed to Jesus and teachings attributed to Muhammad which are parralel, would yall help??

i think that this kind of thread will be nearly impossible to do hear as waaaaay too many of the kuffar will post stuff simply arguing or debating the Truth! you will need a heavy hand at moderating!

but first from Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered to him, That the first commandment of all is, Hear thou, Israel, thy Lord God is one God;

from Islam:

There is no god but Allah, and we worship alone and without partners

as for:

The only authoritative source for the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth is the New Testament of the Christian Bible. This is because it was written by the community founded by Jesus

NO-ONE knows for certain who wrote ANY of the New Testament!

the Qur'an, however, was transmitted to the Prophet Muhammad[pbuh] by the Angel Gibreel[pbuh]; after his[pbuh] death, one of his father-in-laws, Omar ibn Al Kitaab[ra] convinced one of his[pbuh] other father-in-laws, Kalipha Abu Bakr As Siddiq[ra] to order that it be put together in book form. this was completed under the charge the Prophet's[pbuh] personal secretary, Zaid ibn Thaabit[ra]! during the reign of one of the Prophets[pbuh] sons-in-law, Uthman ibn Affan, vowel marks were added to insure proper pronunciation. 2 copies of these are still in existence!

this is amusing:

I am pleased to say that everything known about the teachings of 'Muhammad' is entirely dependent upon Islamic texts.

a rebuttal would be:

I am pleased to say that everything known about the "Christian version" of Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam[pbuh] is entirely dependent upon Christian texts; who's authors appear to be unknown.

The best way to do this is probably by using the Sermon on the Mount and comparing that to what is attributed to Muhammed in the Qu'ran. Sounds like a little work would be involved though.

format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker

The only authoritative source for the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth is the New Testament of the Christian Bible. This is because it was written by the community founded by Jesus and included amongst its members disciples, friends and relatives of Jesus himself. There were other fake gospels, pseudographs and heretical documents written at a later time which lacked apostolic authority and were rejected by the early church as utterly worthless and bogus.

What does NT mean? according to the Jews, there is no NT. and Your man/God Jesus did indeed abrogate the laws of the OT and divided himself by three, prayed to himself, accursed the earth he created when he couldn't find a tree to bear fruit, and broke a really huge commandement or two, by foresaking himself on the cross. Maybe you should have taken a closer look at the so-called bogus bibles, perhaps they would loan your religion more sense?

Islam must speak for itself about the character 'Isa' who appears in Islamic texts. I do not see any good reason for confusing Jesus with 'Isa'. It is an incredible claim to suppose that anyone in Mecca, more than seven centuries after the real Jesus, could know anything about him unknown to his disciples, friends and relatives.

Actually it is christianity that must stand by itself, No people of the 'book'--Mandeans, Jews, Sabeans, Muslims, or any of the messengers, with or without books recognize a man God or believe in him including Jesus himself... so you go on deluding yourself with your Greek mythology is the way to go..

cheers

They don't follow Jesus simply because the concept you have of 'God' is at odds with monotheism, and doesn't fit with anyone's else's idea of monotheism, least of which rational human beings.
There will be no rapture, there is nothing super natural about the second coming of christ. He will come to rule with what God governed (Islamic monotheism) rule for 40 yrs and die like men. Christianity would do slightly better if it let go of all the fairy tales really.. no need to see bleeding statues of flying ghosts of the virgin.. because frankly everything 'natural' is by itself extraordinary and doesn't need silliness to loan it credence.. You end up doing opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.

I don't consider 'scriptures' where the very foundation is at variance with reason. I can be entranced by a mid summer's night's dream just the same, but puck will always remain a fictional folkloric creature --

It is interesting to note though, you think God put a veil through the Jew's heads yet don't mind them having their own illegal state and pouring billions into their pockets.

cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos

Well, it stands to reason that there would be things about God that surpass our understanding, and the Trinity is one of them. Though you can still come to some kind of understanding, as we ourselves are made in the image and likeness of God, and as we are triune in nature and are still one, so too is he.

God is indeed beyond comprehension, what Christianity has done, was take what is incomprehensible and turn him into a very low common denominator. Anthropomorphism reduces God to that which is sold next to bratz dolls at wallmart or Jesus super star at Borders (made in china)..

There is nothing about us that is the image of God.

Qul hū Allāhu ahad Allāhu al-ṣamad lam yalid wa-lam yulad wa-lam yakun lahu kufūwan aḥad [ Qur’an 112]

Translation: Say: God the one, God the eternal, He did not beget and was not begotten. And there is none like unto Him.

I have no desire to worship a man with weaknesses like the rest of humanity!

Well, here we agree. I don't subscribe to Roman bondage.

It really doesn't matter whether you have a million saint along with Jesus as your God.. it is all pretty much the same delusion!

Is God putting a veil largely over the Jewish people's eyes any different to how Allah leads some astray?

Allah SWT leads astray those who have willed themselves to stray

(8:22) Verily, the vilest of all creatures in the sight of God are those deaf, those dumb ones who do not use their reason. (23) For, if God had seen any good in them, He would certainly have made them hear: but [as it is,] even if He had made them hear, they would surely have turned away in their obstinacy.



there free will has sealed their fate!
and I hope you pay close attention to the word (reason) for to reason is man's greatest gift.. yet some throw it away in favor of prevarications

cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker

It is an incredible claim to suppose that anyone in Mecca, more than seven centuries after the real Jesus, could know anything about him unknown to his disciples, friends and relatives.

What? Last time I checked Christians believe in an All-knowing, All-Powerful God.

You telling me God can't inform a man (i.e. the Prophet Muhammad pbuh) about Jesus' life??

format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos

The Bible says that henceforth we know Jesus Christ not after the flesh.

?

So the hundreds of millions of people who have accepted Christ, past, present, and future, who all found freedom from sin by doing so (no matter what kind of past they may have) are living a delusion?

There were early pious (monotheist) Christians as mentioned in suret Al-kahf # 18
otherwise the logical response is, millions of jews past and present are living in delusion? I think that can pretty much apply to any religion. The crux of your argument shouldn't be based on number, rather logic?

'Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

wise words, how come most christian don't live by them??

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.'

John 8: 34-36.

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound.

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans: 6: 1-2

'Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destory the works of the devil.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.'

I John 3: 7-9

'All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

We know that whosever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.'

I John 5: 17-19.

Jesus Christ is the cure for sin nature. Everything else just masks it.

lol.. why do you keep quoting me those long paragraphs and loan them your own exegesis? I mean honestly what are you hoping for? There is no going back to the darkness of the middle ages..

2: 256

THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.* Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil** and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.



does that do anything for you? ' The right way is indeed distinct from error'

The Bible teaches us as Christians to critically examine everything, and to hold on to the good (1 Thessalonians 5: 21). In terms of the message of the Quran, I don't see how, for instance, an almighty, all knowing Creator would begin to reveal himself to mankind in the Old Testament and allow it to become corrupted, as if he doesn't have the power to stop it.

I don't believe Christians examine anything closely -- it is one of the reasons they are in such bad shape, most of them are non adherents and those of them that adhere are nut jobs.

Men corrupt.. God doesn't corrupt..
and Al7mdlilah, the Quran is preserved as the final testament. There is no room for innovations. Everything from politics, economics, social structure, inheritance, Jurisprudence is covered and preserved with Islam.. you want to spend your time being a christian, you are most welcome to it, but I promise you, you cutting and pasting from the book has no impact on me, I attended catholic school, and proud to say I used to get the highest grades in religion class.. I am not wowed by your scriptures. they are wrought with error and the history of Christendom has been pretty ****ing, that I'd think anyone would have be completely out of their wits to subscribe to that... I certainly wouldn't want to approach God with an ounce of doubt...

you'll excuse me I still need to mend my other thread and then I'd like to get to bed...


cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

?
There were early pious (monotheist) Christians as mentioned in suret Al-kahf # 18
otherwise the logical response is, millions of jews past and present are living in delusion? I think that can pretty much apply to any religion. The crux of your argument shouldn't be based on number, rather logic?

wise words, how come most christian don't live by them??

Because most people only say they are or think they are Christian, and don't have an ounce of Jesus.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

lol.. why do you keep quoting me those long paragraphs and loan them your own exegesis? I mean honestly what are you hoping for? There is no going back to the darkness of the middle ages..

I'm just trying to open your eyes to the reality of what a Christian really is.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

2: 256

THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.* Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil** and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.



does that do anything for you? ' The right way is indeed distinct from error'

No one is trying to force you to do anything, and in fact I can't do that. What I am trying to do is show you something.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

I don't believe Christians examine anything closely -- it is one of the reasons they are in such bad shape, most of them are non adherents and those of them that adhere are nut jobs.



Men corrupt.. God doesn't corrupt..
and Al7mdlilah, the Quran is preserved as the final testament. There is no room for innovations. Everything from politics, economics, social structure, inheritance, Jurisprudence is covered and preserved with Islam.. you want to spend your time being a christian, you are most welcome to it, but I promise you, you cutting and pasting from the book has no impact on me, I attended catholic school, and proud to say I used to get the highest grades in religion class.. I am not wowed by your scriptures. they are wrought with error and the history of Christendom has been pretty ****ing, that I'd think anyone would have be completely out of their wits to subscribe to that... I certainly wouldn't want to approach God with an ounce of doubt...

As I've already outlined, just because someone calls themselves a Christian, goes to church on Sunday, or even was baptized, that doesn't make them so. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not everyone that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'

Matthew 7: 21

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid. He will say he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils. It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because you came to him.

Also, Catholicism is not Christian. It is the biggest stumbling block to people accepting Christ though.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine

you'll excuse me I still need to mend my other thread and then I'd like to get to bed...


cheers

Good night.

format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos

Because most people only say they are or think they are Christian, and don't have an ounce of Jesus.

seems like your quarrels are then with Christians not Muslims

I'm just trying to open your eyes to the reality of what a Christian really is.

Christianity is quite obvious there is no enigma. Man/God with a mother and an alter ego.. what more needs to be said? If I have to accept that as the basis of my creed then I am lying to myself.

No one is trying to force you to do anything, and in fact I can't do that. What I am trying to do is show you something.

You can't do in a blog what years attending catholic school hasn't done, al7mdlilah I came out of it, learning all I needed about Christianity to know they are no different than the polytheists condemned for their lack of reason~

As I've already outlined, just because someone calls themselves a Christian, goes to church on Sunday, or even was baptized, that doesn't make them so. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not everyone that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.'

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid. He will say he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils. It all comes back to whether or not you are living a life that is pleasing in the sight of the Lord, a life that he enabled you to live because you came to him.

Your judgment of fellow Christians isn't what is going to win me over.. to be quite frank, it just shows how many of you are astray.

Also, Catholicism is not Christian. It is the biggest stumbling block to people accepting Christ though.

well actually they claim to be older and better than the reformation, and on some level at least they are more organized, albeit their beliefs are more colorful than yours, at the basic unit, they share the most important thing with you (Man/God with mother and alter ego) -- it isn't Catholicism that is the stumbling block of Christianity it is the core of your belief!

Good night.

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

I was wondering if it was possible to compile teachings attributed to Jesus and teachings attributed to Muhammad which are parralel, would yall help??

I guess I'm going to be the wierd Christian in the group and say that I think this could be really interesting as well. I just want to clarify though.

You want the teachings attributed to Jesus (not Isa)? So we are talking about what you find record of regarding Jesus' teachings in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, and Revelation. Or are you talking about from some other sources?

The other question is what makes two passages parrallel? Is it enough that they touch on the same topic it, or do they need to show significant agreement?


Example:

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,
Praise be to God,
The Cherisher and Sustainer of the World;
Most Gracious, most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgement.
Thee do we worship,
And Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom
Thou has bestowed Thy Grace,
Those whose (portion)
Is not wrath,
And who go not astray.

and

Our Father Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts,
As we also forgive our debtors;
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

These passages are far from identical, but they do have very similar tones to them and a number of similar ideas expressed:
"Praise be to God/Thee do we worship" --- "Hallowed be Thy name"
"Thine aid we seek" --- "Give us this day our daily bread"
"Show us the straight way" --- "Thy will be done, on earth as in heaven/Lead us not into temptation"


But there are also aspects where they definitely are at odds with each other as well:
"In the name of God" followed by a list of attributes vs. "Our Father"
"those who (portion) is not wrath" vs. "forgive us our debts/deliver us from evil"


So, do we end up picking about passages to find parrellels in portions and forget that other parts of the same passage are perhaps even in opposition to each other, or do we only use those passages where the whole thought expressed is similar?

Is there any value in also highlighting where they are dissimilar?

format_quote Originally Posted by ASeeker

"What does NT mean? according to the Jews, there is no NT."

Even Jews who do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah are not so idiotic as to question the existence of a document known as the New Testament. It is the primary source for information about the life and teaching of Jesus and was produced by the community of people who knew him.

Incidentally, the overwhelming majority of the first Christians were Jews and almost all of the New Testament was written by Jews. If Luke was not a Jew then he was the exception.

There are no idiotic questions, i believe just idiotic people, I thank you for being a prime example of one.

Glad first Christians were Jews, considering Jesus was indeed sent to the Israelites

But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel." 15:24

http://bible.cc/matthew/15-24.htm


are you the lost sheep of bani Israel? as far as I am concerned Jesus was sent to a handful of those who have gone astray, NOT to all people!
So quite your complaining!
cheers

format_quote Originally Posted by Fedos

You misunderstand. If Jesus was only sent to the Jewish people, then what are we to glean from John 4, Jesus' exchange with the Samaritan woman? Or Matthew 8, when he heals the Roman centurion's servant?

This is what is in Acts:

'Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.' Acts 13: 46.

The Gospel was to be preached first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Paul has no authority when it comes to Jesus ( he is the devil) you were warned against.. as for Barnabas, isn't it amazing that his so-called bible was banned for teaching that which is very opposite of saul's view?

I think any clear discerning mind can indeed see, Jesus was sent to a handful, who refused him anyway.. Prophet Mohammed PBUH was sent to man kind. period!

cheers