Does the Christian Bible ever portray the disciples worshipping Jesus?

**Grace Seeker** · 08-13-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

The term Lord ,as you know better than me ,could be used either as a title of respect or to worship

John 13:4 He rises from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poured water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter said unto him, Lord,(respect) dost thou wash my feet?

Lord(God) Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner.

But it is not our issue ,our issue is that ,what violates the Quranic principles regarding monotheism?

The [Qur'anic] verse says:
9:31 They take their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics to be their Lords* besides Allah. And they take as their Lord, the Messiah son of Mary.

Not

They call their rabbis, priests and monks or ascetics Lords.

Call Jesus ,Lord ,if you wish ,day and night ,never never take him as Lord besides God ....

So, how should we interepret Thomas' response on his first encounter with Jesus following his resurrection:

John 20
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Is Thomas simply using a title of respect or is Thomas offering worship?

What is the reason that Thomas calls Jesus God?

**_ALI_** · 08-18-2008

Salam

So, how should we interepret Thomas' response on his first encounter with Jesus following his resurrection:
Quote:
John 20
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Is Thomas simply using a title of respect or is Thomas offering worship?

What is the reason that Thomas calls Jesus God?

There are two ways to reply to this.
1)In the context, you will come to know that this happened after Jesus was nailed to the cross (according to the Bible, not according to me) The disciples had heard from hearsay that Jesus was dead. Imagine, a person who you thought was dead just come in front of you as if he was alive. Would that not make you exclaim “My God!”. Thus Thomas was not calling Jesus God, he was only exclaiming.
2)Prophets have been called god many times according to the Bible.
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.EX 7:1
So Moses is called god here.
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.PSALMS 82:6
Here God refers to all the prophets.

**Grace Seeker** · 08-19-2008

But if we are truly reading in context, then one must consider John's own comments at the conclusion of this story, that it was told that we might believe that Jesus is the "Son of God". This would seem to indicate not that Thomas was just making an exclamation, but that he was making a declaration of faith.

Also, while today we might indeed hear people using God's name in an exclamation, such an exclamation without actually meaning would be taking God's name in vain, a breaking of one of the commandments. Though we probably all know people who use invectives today, this is of a different pattern. While I have heard people say, "My God" or even "My Lord"; I have never heard anyone say "My Lord and my God." I know of no other examples of this particular form of exclamation that meets the pattern you suggest from this time period, and certainly no where else in the Biblical record. This leads me to believe that these words do indeed carry weight, and are not just words. Further, John tells us that Thomas didn't just say these words to the wind, but actually directed them toward Jesus: "Thomas said to him." And lastly, Jesus himself takes them to be a statement of faith: "you have believed."

None of this fits the model of being a simple exclamatory statement as you have described.

**Imam** · 08-19-2008

Does the Christian Bible ever portray the disciples worshipping Jesus?

No, It doesn't

The one they worshipped ,is the same one whom Jesus prayed to :

Luk 11:1 Now Jesus was praying in a
certain place, and when he finished, one of
his disciples said to him, "Lord, teach us to
pray, as John taught his disciples.”
Jesus’ answered
Mat 6:9 Pray then like this: "Our Father
in heaven, hallowed be your name.
:10 Your kingdom come, your will
be done, on earth as it is in heaven

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
Is Thomas simply using a title of respect or is Thomas offering worship?

In
John 20:28
was Thomas thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,and why?

before any further discussion with you,I need short, direct answer with textual proof....

**Grace Seeker** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

before any further discussion with you,I need short, direct answer with textual proof....

Your wish is my command:
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 28:17 και ιδοντες αυτον προσεκυνησαν οι δε εδιστασαν

**Imam** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Your wish is my command:
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 28:17 και ιδοντες αυτον προσεκυνησαν οι δε εδιστασαν

Seeker ,Seeker

That is my wish,and is yours too,as you who intiated the thread with...

John 20:28
ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

again my question:

was Thomas thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,and why?

Just yes or no

if yes then upon what basis he thought so?

**Keltoi** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

Seeker ,Seeker

That is my wish,and is yours too,as you who intiated the thread with...

John 20:28
ἀπεκρίθη Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου.

again my question:

was Thomas thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,and why?

Just yes or no

if yes then upon what basis he thought so?

Yes, Thomas did believe that. Why? Probably because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before him. Death had no power over Christ.

And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:28-29).

Jesus Himself agreed with Thomas and his belief that Christ was indeed his Lord and God. I'm not sure what else can be said about it.

* To add to that, what are we to make of John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?, which literally means "God among us?" Why would John refer to Him as "God among us" if John didn't literally think God was among us?

**Whatsthepoint** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by _ALI_

Salam

There are two ways to reply to this.
1)In the context, you will come to know that this happened after Jesus was nailed to the cross (according to the Bible, not according to me) The disciples had heard from hearsay that Jesus was dead. Imagine, a person who you thought was dead just come in front of you as if he was alive. Would that not make you exclaim “My God!”. Thus Thomas was not calling Jesus God, he was only exclaiming.
2)Prophets have been called god many times according to the Bible.
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.EX 7:1
So Moses is called god here.
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.PSALMS 82:6
Here God refers to all the prophets.

The Quran says Jesus ascended to heaven just before the crucifixion (or something like that), so unless Allah made Jesus appear to the disciples neither of the explanations is compliant with Islam..

**Imam** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by Keltoi

Yes, Thomas did believe that. Why? Probably because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before him. Death had no power over Christ.

because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before Thomas ,he believed ,but believed what according to the text ?Did he doubt that Jesus is God and due to to the resurrection he believed so? or he doubted something else till he verified and then believed?

The text is clear:

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas doubted the resurrection not the nature of Jesus....

now waiting for seeker's response

Originally Posted by Keltoi

To add to that, what are we to make of John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?, which literally means "God among us?" Why would John refer to Him as "God among us" if John didn't literally think God was among us?

John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?

What a Joke !!!

you can search John till day of judgment and never find the word Immanuel,never ever !!!!

**Keltoi** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before Thomas ,he believed ,but believed what according to the text ?Did he doubt that Jesus is God and due to to the resurrection he believed so? or he doubted something else till he verified and then believed?

The text is clear:

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas doubted the resurrection not the nature of Jesus....

now waiting for seeker's response

John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?

What a Joke !!!

you can search John till day of judgment and never find the word Immanuel,never ever !!!!

Actually you are correct, the author I was thinking of is Matthew.

Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Speaking of John however, these verses are very telling in regards to this discussion.

John 5:18 “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:33 “The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

**Imam** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by Keltoi

Actually you are correct, the author I was thinking of is Matthew. Matthew 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

you know that Matthew1:23 besides the other passages of the old testament which he distorted ,misused in his writings , is the reason No.1 why I believe that the NT writers not only being victims to the hearsay sources but also INTENTIONALLY lied...

Believe it or not ,If you ask me why I don't believe in the NT as a valid source to know God,I would answer you (the so called messianic prophecies)....

the other topics,contradictions,trinity etc......are all of minor importance to me......

anyway it is not our topic.......would be nice if you open new thread with the title (messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus) and promise you to be the first visitor there....

Originally Posted by Keltoi

Speaking of John however, these verses are very telling in regards to this discussion.

John 5:18 “Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.”

John 10:33 “The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

And

Jesus responded: "Isn't it written in your law, 'I said, you are gods?' If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can't be broken), Do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God?' " (John 10:34-36)

**Keltoi** · 08-19-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

you know that Matthew1:23 besides the other passages of the old testament which he distorted ,misused in his writings , is the reason No.1 why I believe that the NT writers not only being victims to the hearsay sources but also INTENTIONALLY lied...

Believe it or not ,If you ask me why I don't believe in the NT as a valid source to know God,I would answer you (the so called messianic prophecies)....

the other topics,contradictions,trinity etc......are all of minor importance to me......

anyway it is not our topic.......would be nice if you open new thread with the title (messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus) and promise you to be the first visitor there....

And

Jesus responded: "Isn't it written in your law, 'I said, you are gods?' If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can't be broken), Do you say of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God?' " (John 10:34-36)

You are actually making my point. Christ quotes a verse out of Psalms 82:6

I said, "You are gods,

And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Nevertheless you will die like men

And fall like any one of the princes."

Why did He quote that verse? He is referring to judges, who have been given authority over men by God's commission. That is to say, they are "gods", but not by their own commission, but by God's commission. ( to whom the Word of God came) Jesus is actually saying that His title of "Son of God" is not of His own proclamation, but comes as a result of the Father's commission. (sanctified and sent into the World)

To repeat in hopefully more clear language:

The Scripture says that God calls the judges in Psalm 82 'gods' on the basis of their divine commission. Thus, since the Scripture cannot be wrong, it is not blasphemy for one with a divine commission to have a divine title. Christ did not have a commission like the judges; He had an exclusive commission from my Father, for He set Christ apart and sent me into the world - to do the works the Pharisees had seen, to say the words He said, to grant eternal life.

**Grace Seeker** · 08-20-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

because the resurrected body of Christ was standing there before Thomas ,he believed ,but believed what according to the text ?Did he doubt that Jesus is God and due to to the resurrection he believed so? or he doubted something else till he verified and then believed?

The text is clear:

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Thomas doubted the resurrection not the nature of Jesus....

Exactly, Thomas did doubt "it", that the disciples had seen the Lord. He doubted the news of the resurrection that had been told him by his fellow disciples. Why? Because he knew Jesus was dead. He would need more than just their word for it that he was now alive. He would need to see with his own eyes. And then he did. And when he did, he realized that this man whom he had come to know as God's anointed was more than just anointed by God, but was in fact God (the only God Thomas knew being Yahweh) among them. That is why Jesus praised him for his belief. But I already said all of this above how John uses Thomas statement to substantiate his own claim for Jesus' divinity.

John referring to Christ as "Immanuel"?

you can search John till day of judgment and never find the word Immanuel,never ever !!!!

You are correct on this. It is Matthew who applies the name "Immanuel" to Jesus. The closest John comes to calling Jesus Immanuel (meaning "God with us") is: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

**Grace Seeker** · 08-20-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

Believe it or not ,If you ask me why I don't believe in the NT as a valid source to know God,I would answer you (the so called messianic prophecies)....

BTW, I can actually appreciate that point of view. On this I think Matthew was more than just a little over enthusiastic. He seems to have been so enamored of proving the concept of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah that he doesn't mind doing things like adapting Jesus' geneology to better fit the theme he has created. Certainly not what a good biographer would do today, but then again Matthew was NOT trying to be a biographer, and the standards for writing in his day where different than what they are in ours today. If that makes you doubt the veracity of the rest of Matthew I can understand that.

Given that, I suppose that would be reason enough for you for doubting the veracity of Matthew's report of the disciples' worshipping of Jesus in Matthew 28:17?

**Imam** · 08-20-2008

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Exactly, Thomas did doubt "it", that the disciples had seen the Lord. He doubted the news of the resurrection that had been told him by his fellow disciples. Why? Because he knew Jesus was dead. He would need more than just their word for it that he was now alive. He would need to see with his own eyes. And then he did. And when he did, he realized that this man whom he had come to know as God's anointed was more than just anointed by God, but was in fact God (the only God Thomas knew being Yahweh) among them. That is why Jesus praised him for his belief. But I already said all of this above how John uses Thomas statement to substantiate his own claim for Jesus' divinity.
.

The second part of your post is flawed....

Where in the passage Jesus ever praised Thomas?!! Actually he praised those who have not seen the resurrected Jesus and yet have believed THE RESURRECTION...

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting (That God resurrected me,not doubting me being God) and believe." 28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed(that I was resurrected); blessed are those who have not seen (me resurrected)and yet have believed."

when Thomas saw with his own eyes the resurrected Jesus he believed,according to the text ,what he doubted before (Jesus still dead).....
Do we have any textual clues that Thomas doubted Jesus being God and by the resurrection he believed so?!

don't you believe that the story line should be consistent?

If Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,when he said "My Lord and my God!" upon what basis he thought so? ?

Just answer me ,and step by step ,we will arrive together to my conclusion ....

**IbnAbdulHakim** · 08-20-2008

arguing with altered scriptures is futile

**Grace Seeker** · 08-21-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

If Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him,when he said "My Lord and my God!" upon what basis he thought so? ?

Just answer me ,and step by step ,we will arrive together to my conclusion ....

The basis for me believing that Thomas believed Jesus was God, Yahweh, is simple. Yahweh is the only God that Thomas knew, and yet Thomas addresses Jesus as "my God". I accept that at face value. Your hypothesis that he meant something different by the phrase is unsubstantiated conjecture.

**Grace Seeker** · 08-21-2008

Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

arguing with altered scriptures is futile

Notice that the question is not did the disciples ever worship Jesus, but does the Bible portray them doing so. If you are uninterested in what the Bible actually says, then it would be wise to post elsewhere.

**Imam** · 08-21-2008

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Yahweh is the only God that Thomas knew, and yet Thomas addresses Jesus as "my God". .

well done ,seeker

you answered the first part of my question,

Yes , Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him.

Now

the second part;

What is the reason Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him?

I don't see in the passage anything suggested Thomas doubted Jesus as being God and suddenly he discovered it !....

Our discussion will not go any further ,before providing me a textual explanation ,why in the context of the passage, Thomas uttered (my lord and My God)....in the sense of discovering that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him....???

**Keltoi** · 08-21-2008

Originally Posted by Imam

well done ,seeker

you answered the first part of my question,

Yes , Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him.

Now

the second part;

What is the reason Thomas was thinking that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him?

I don't see in the passage anything suggested Thomas doubted Jesus as being God and suddenly he discovered it !....

Our discussion will not go any further ,before providing me a textual explanation ,why in the context of the passage, Thomas uttered (my lord and My God)....in the sense of discovering that Jesus was Yahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him....???

If it has been established that Thomas was indeed calling Jesus "my God", then yes, the next question is why did he think that?

That does indeed require context, and the context is what did the disciples know about Christ's relationship with the Father prior to His death and resurrection?

As we saw in the passages from John, the Pharisees believed Christ to be claiming divinity. If the Pharisees thought Christ to be claiming divinity, wouldn't it stand to reason that the disciples of Christ would have understood this as well? If they did understand this, then they probably also understood the relationship that Christ was claiming to have with God. That would explain why Thomas had God "on his mind" so to speak, especially in the context of Christ's resurrection.