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  1. #1
    Questfortruth's Avatar
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    An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

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    MSalman's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    As-Salamu 'Alaykum

    just to point out that the author's approach doesn't completely follow the Sunni 'aqeedah (creed). I'm sure people who have studied this subject know what i'm talking about.

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    Trumble's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    First, do human beings exist or not? No one can rationally prove that we do not exist. Any person that argues that we do not exist, disproves himself or herself by the very fact of the denial. Non existent beings don’t speak. So, it is clear that we exist because we cannot deny it without being stupid or mad.
    Hmmmm...

    It certainly seems true that anyone who denied they existed would be self-refuting; a sort of cogito ergo sum in reverse. That's about as far as it goes, though, there is nothing to stop you denying that anybody else exists, or least accepting that you don't and can't know if they do or not, a position known as solipsism.

    Since we did not make ourselves, it follows that something made us. This is also clear.
    As mud. Why does it 'follow' that 'something' made us?

    Let us refer to the thing that brought us into being as our Cause. Since we all agree that we have a Cause, the question can never be whether our Cause exists or not, rather what is the nature of this Cause. Let me reword the whole things. Some people call this Cause “God”. So, if we replace Cause with God, we can see that questions as to whether or not God exists become nonsensical. The real issue is never whether there is God but what kind of God are we talking about.
    Again, even if you accept the necessity for a 'cause' (of people, at least) there is no reason it need be a 'thing'. The second point is more interesting though. Let me reword things. Some people call this Cause "the Flying Spaghetti Monster". Therefore, the real issue is not whether there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster, but what sort of Flying Spaghetti Monster we are talking about. Or, more even interestingly, some people call this cause "NOT God". Therefore, the real issue is what sort of 'NOT God' we are talking about.

    “Evolution, explains the origin of everything in space. So, God does not exist. Discuss.”

    Where do you begin with this one?
    You can both begin, and end, with one word, STRAWMAN

    After that, I rather lost interest.

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    root's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    First, do human beings exist or not? No one can rationally prove that we do not exist.
    I exist, all around me are mere images of my own created reality. "Probably"

    Any person that argues that we do not exist, disproves himself or herself by the very fact of the denial.
    I don't think it does. I have already demonstarted that I can exist alone and everyone else does not. You simply cannot prove me wrong......

    Non existent beings don’t speak. So, it is clear that we exist because we cannot deny it without being stupid or mad.
    I am neither stupid or mad please don't offend me with my belief that I alone exist and everyone else is just imagenary within my own mind.....

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    brotherinfaith's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    let's say that we don't exist can anyone tell me how we do not exist ?
    if you say that you don't exist how can i know you then and how can you know me if you don't exist and what about all our feelings experiences desires emotions good actions bad ones and all the events which keep going on around us all the time.when you say that something can move without having a force applied to it you are violating the laws of physics and then you are trying to disprove what was proved by expreience and no one can agree with that our life is the same because a life can never exist without someone tio live it and one who can not think and feel and react and act that one is called dead and that existence is what makes the difference between us and the dead

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    root's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by brotherinfaith View Post
    let's say that we don't exist can anyone tell me how we do not exist ?
    Because I exist, you dont.

    if you say that you don't exist how can i know you then and how can you know me if you don't exist and what about all our feelings experiences desires emotions good actions bad ones and all the events which keep going on around us all the time.
    I say that I exist

    when you say that something can move without having a force applied to it you are violating the laws of physics
    The laws of physics do not exist either, they too are "rules" made by my brain to give me a sense of reality. These rules were to give me a sense of existense in a world that is not real, like you.

    and then you are trying to disprove what was proved by expreience and no one can agree with that our life is the same because a life can never exist
    You cannot "prove" my hypothosis is wrong. You cannot prove you are right, your left with no other logical conclusion other than my hypothosis being correct has a probability that I am right, no matter how illogical it might be to you. Therefore, a probability does exist that you are not real.

    without someone tio live it and one who can not think and feel and react and act that one is called dead and that existence is what makes the difference between us and the dead
    If something never really existed, how can it die. My brain simply uses death as a convenient means of disposing of someone in a way that makes sense to me.

    Of course if you can prove me wrong, feel free and bring forth the evidence!!!!
    Last edited by root; 10-20-2008 at 07:47 PM.

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    Hamayun's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    Because I exist, you dont.
    Thats impressive. So if I stab you with a rusty knife you won't feel a thing

    What is your address?

    I think this could be a very interesting experiment

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    root's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamayun View Post
    Thats impressive. So if I stab you with a rusty knife you won't feel a thing

    What is your address?

    I think this could be a very interesting experiment
    I will cease to exist for a while, my mind must not be pleased that I did not prey enough to myself or something and punished me, not to worry though I will immediately regain conciousness at some point and a few years later after that become self aware again. You cannot destroy me really, I simply play out another life in my mind then start all over again.....

    If my mind will's it.

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    Abdul Fattah's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    I wasn't able to read the full article either as I got frustrated with the many logical fallacies. I remember writing a refutation somewhere on this forum about another book of this author (I think it was the good logic of evil) but I can't find it...
    The ideologies in these books lean close to sufism where they mix in pseudo-philosophy with mysticism (which in my opinion are two things that contradict one another). I'd advice people to be careful with these books...
    An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Check out my website for my conversion story.
    Check out my free e-book if you like reading drama-novels.

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    MSalman's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Trumble View Post
    As mud. Why does it 'follow' that 'something' made us?
    Let's simply follow the rhetoric questions of the Qur'aan: "Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief". [52:35-36 - interpretation of the meaning]. Now, there're only two possibilities: (1) We always have been around (2) Someone which always has been around created us

    Quote Originally Posted by root View Post
    I exist, all around me are mere images of my own created reality. "Probably"
    If every single individual prove that they exist then ...

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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    when a human loses all ability to use his logic to find the truth they don't exist to as god said '' say does the one who sees as the blind one surely they are not equal '' and he said '' dead are not equal to alive ones'' yes you are right fellow you don't exist

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    Questfortruth's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    I wasn't able to read the full article either as I got frustrated with the many logical fallacies. I remember writing a refutation somewhere on this forum about another book of this author (I think it was the good logic of evil) but I can't find it...
    The ideologies in these books lean close to sufism where they mix in pseudo-philosophy with mysticism (which in my opinion are two things that contradict one another). I'd advice people to be careful with these books...
    I met the person who maintains the website and published his own books. I am not quite sure if he wrote this book aswell. But he does make claims that average Muslims would disagree. Such as we are inside Allah swt. He claimed he knows the R'uh. Apparently, something no Muslim knew of before. So its like secret knowledge. He is very smart but I personally think too smart for his own good. He agrees with the Mu'tazilites Aqeeda. For some reason he uses Algebraic problems to find answers in Quran. He made bunch of claims that I cannot recall anymore.

    I found this book interesting. Can you please point out the logical fallacies? I am not too educated on these sorts of in-depth matters on Islam.
    Last edited by Questfortruth; 10-20-2008 at 11:40 PM.

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    Trumble's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by islamiclife View Post
    Let's simply follow the rhetoric questions of the Qur'aan: "Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators? Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, they have no firm belief". [52:35-36 - interpretation of the meaning]. Now, there're only two possibilities: (1) We always have been around (2) Someone which always has been around created us
    That passage makes exactly the same logical error, the conclusion simply doesn't follow from the premises. Indeed, this is actually rather worse as it makes a far more specific claim. Why should there be 'someone'? Why, even if there was, need that 'someone' have always been around? Sure, there might be suggested answers to those questions, but they are not argued there.

    You use the essential word in 'rhetoric'. It is rhetoric, and should be assessed on that basis. The so called 'amazing proof', however, at least starts off trying to present its conclusions using formal logic and should be assessed on that basis.

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    Eric H's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Greetings and peace be with you Questfortruth;
    Can you please point out the logical fallacies?
    If there were absolute proof for the existence of God then we would all see this proof in the same way. There is Islamic, Christian and Hindu, ways to prove Gods existence, but this is not proof, this is faith.

    2+2 = 4, Muslims, Christians and Hindus will agree on this proof in the same way.

    Now find a proof for the existence of God that Christians, Muslims and Hindus can agree on and see in the same way. But do not loose your faith and trust in God, these questions always exist to challenge our beliefs.

    In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God,

    Eric

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    MSalman's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Trumble View Post
    That passage makes exactly the same logical error, the conclusion simply doesn't follow from the premises. Indeed, this is actually rather worse as it makes a far more specific claim. Why should there be 'someone'? Why, even if there was, need that 'someone' have always been around? Sure, there might be suggested answers to those questions, but they are not argued there.
    maybe you can tell us how do you explain our coming into existence and coming only recently rationally and logically.

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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by islamiclife View Post
    maybe you can tell us how do you explain our coming into existence and coming only recently rationally and logically.
    You can't expect that of Brother Trumble...

    Big words, confusion, philosophy, and long encrypted sentences are Trumble's fortes.

  21. #17
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by islamiclife View Post
    maybe you can tell us how do you explain our coming into existence and coming only recently rationally and logically.
    Just to jump in here if this wasn't just for Trumble.

    How about through natural non-deity guided processes?

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    Questfortruth's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    I feel bad for disbelievers. They live such a miserable life on earth because they reject Allah. After they die they will find the truth and that will not help them in anyway.

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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth View Post
    I feel bad for disbelievers. They live such a miserable life on earth because they reject Allah. After they die they will find the truth and that will not help them in anyway.
    You are mistaken we live a miserable life on this earth. My life is quite enjoyable, thank you very much.

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    MSalman's Avatar
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    Re: An Amazing Proof for the Existence of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Gator View Post
    How about through natural non-deity guided processes?
    how do you explain our coming to existence only recently?


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