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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
I didn't go outside their writing nor played the guessing game. If you have a difficulty believing that their passion was inspired by the Old Testament esp, Isaiah 53 and even the psalm ( which contains the passage under discussion) then go visit me there
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-jesus-2.html
I'm a person who knows well how to support my thoughts with academic work and documentations......
It depends upon what you mean by "inspired". Of course they were inspired by the OT...that was their religion. If you mean "inspired" in the sense that they made a work of fiction based on their beliefs....that is the basic thought process of a non-Christian...or a non-Muslim, who might say Muhammed was inspired by the religions that pre-dated him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
no wonder for me here,I have met dozens of those who used to swallow anything in the Bible even if it doesn't make sense or contradictory....
you are not the first and will not be the last.
Nice of you to assume so much. I'm very comfortable with my faith and the Scripture from which it comes. Strangely enough I've met many, many dozens who feel the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
in other words ,your guessing that it could means something or its opposite,
well let's address the two of your guessing (was cry for despair) or (was cry for hope):
It's not me guessing. There is no Scriptural explanation of what Christ's statement meant. We are all guessing when we attempt to enter His mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
He wasn't taken by surprise in order to feel despair ,he not only knew that he is going to have such experience but more important he knew that the difficulty would only last for few time and then he will be resurrected again....
Yes, which is where the theory of separation comes from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
It would be shame on him distrusting and accusing his substance of forsaken him if he already read the bible:
Psalm 9:10 Those who know your name will trust in you,
for you, LORD, have never forsaken those who seek you.
Yes, which is where the theory of Christ quoting from the Psalm of David comes from.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
That is a muddle !
Or a mystery...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Jesus says (My God My God why have you forsaken me) and you say (God had not and would not abandon Him)
Just why don't you believe jesus?
which to believe his words or your guessing?
I believe Christ's words to the letter. All of them, not just this sentence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
and I would say any conclusion about what Christ actually meant by this statement other than what he really said , words of a man who can think of a hundred places he would rather be,is conjecture by anyone
simply nothing in the passage would makes us think something other than ,that he means what he says and he says what he means....
Actually that is a rather odd statement, since Christ often spoke in parables. Christ often quoted from the OT to make a point. It could be the case here, or it could be a literal cry of despair. As we have established already, nobody knows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
If he is the man-God then logically his divinity was at play too...
I have better answer than yours to the question:
Christ was tempted, which God could not be. Why would Satan attempt to tempt Christ if it was fruitless?
the answer in a word :because Jesus is not God.
Again, this shows confusion about what Christians believe Christ to be. There was only one thing that separated Jesus from the rest of humanity, and that was his sinless nature. Where did that sinless nature come from? God. Where did Jesus's humanity come from? His human nature. These two natures were in union in the body of Jesus Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
There is a possibility that a human fail ,but it is impossible for a man claimed to be fully God to even imagine the failure..
you ask why?
the normal man can choose either the right path or the left path
while the fully-man fully-God has only one choice ,the right path and only the right path ...
Jesus according to you is God in the flesh and you claim that there was possibility for failure...
so would it be sane to say:
the God that failed ?!!
either Jesus is God (so logically he can't fail nor be tempted), or he isn't,there is no in between.....
See above. But I should have been more descriptive about what I meant. Was the possibility for failure there? No. Was the capacity for failure there? Yes. In other words, he had the choice but not the ability. He did not have the sinful nature to fall into temptation. Why did the Enemy struggle so much to tempt Christ? Because the capacity was there. However, as the Son of God, the living Will of God, Christ would not and could not be tempted.
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dawud_uk
this is taking me back to the confusing part of my life where i became a believer in a Creator but just couldnt accept christianity as true.
you see to me this is all confusing, you are supposed to have God 'inspiring' people to write different contradictory things deliberately...
or he has make mistakes.
so either God is lying or God is making mistakes, neither works for me. my God is not a liar, my God does not make mistakes.
regarding the Quran and sunnah and the need for context, exactly, that is very important but that context is almost totally lacking from the bible, it has been written down many years after the events, most bible scholars accept it was written by people who never met jesus christ (as) and the context is rarely there.
with almost every ayat and every hadith we know when it was revealed / spoken / acted upon, what was the context around it etc.
I guess that's where all of us need to follow our own conviction.
Clearly what was a stumbling block to your faith when reading the Bible has not been one to mine.
Reading the Qu'ran has been a convicting experience for you, but it hasn't for me.
My husband, who is an atheist, has read both books and hasn't been convinced by either.
So we all make out choices in how we walk through life and how we walk with God.
If my husband is right, then none of this will matter.
If you and I are right, then we will give account for our choices to God Himself one day.
And may God show grace and mercy for all the wrong we committed, believing it to be the right thing to do. May He show compassion for our human lack of understanding, and for the mistakes we made as a consequence.
May God keep you and your family always, Dawud.
Peace :)
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
If you mean "inspired" in the sense that they made a work of fiction based on their beliefs....that is the basic thought process of a non-Christian...
Yes that is my thought which I supported by documentations in the previous link......
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
It's not me guessing. There is no Scriptural explanation of what Christ's statement meant. We are all guessing when we attempt to enter His mind. ..
Just be factual...
who's playing the guessing game?
It is Christians
Are we ,as objective readers, supposed to play this game too?
The honest,objective readers are not obliged to enter his mind .......
all what they need his words ,what he uttered ,not what he ever might have thought
why?
Job 15:6
"Your own mouth condemns you, and not I; And your own lips testify against you.
As obviously what he uttered condemns him ,that is why Christians let his words and try to enter his mind.........
having entered his perfect mind and found the plan of salvation and his readiness to suffer without any trace for any ideas that might makes him desperate, they rushed outside his mind ,letting him all ,instead seeking the help of Psalm in order defend the absurd:
Let's see if Psalm might help their case:
In previous discussion Grace-seeker claimed the same:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace-seeker
I said that Jesus was referring to this Psalm. That he saw himself in that same situation as the psalmist,I see Jesus as making a life application of that psalm to his own life..
I posted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imam
In fact Jesus saw himself in the wrong time and place .....
Jesus is free to quote the Psalm or any other books from the Old Testament ,as long as his quotes makes sense to his claims and could be applied to his case...
1- The Jesus who cried "my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?
needed to know
“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)
Psalm 46:1 "God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble."
2- The Jesus who cried "my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me? needed to know,and supposed to be God incarnate, he can't speak of being forsaken by himself at all, let alone at the culmination of his plan for human salvation.Why was Jesus afraid, since events were allegedly moving as he desired?
3- "Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help" (Psalm 22:11). This indicates that if there were someone to help, he (Jesus) would gladly agree to be saved, which would have meant his death occurred against his will. How then can Christians say he willed it?
4- The The afflicted one in Psalm, God has listened to his cry for help,whereas
Jesus is not..
Psalm24 but has listened to his cry for help.
Matthew34At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 35When some of the bystanders heard it, they began saying, "Behold, He is calling for Elijah." Someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink, saying, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to take Him down." (AC)And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last.
More on the the Psalm here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post869495
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
Christ would not and could not be tempted.
Mark 1:13 And he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
There was only one thing that separated Jesus from the rest of humanity, and that was his sinless nature. .
The claim that he never sinned is a myth
A sample from the NT proved himself sinful :
while he advised "...But anyone who says 'You fool' will be in danger of the hell fire" (NIV)
yet,He refers to the Pharisees as "you fools,"In Matthew 23:13-36, "blind fools," extortionists, sons of serpents, a brood of vipers
also
His Transferring demons into about 2,000 pigs: Mark 5:8-14, Matthew 8:28-34 and Luke 8:27-39 describe an incident in which Jesus exorcised a man who had been tormented by about 2,000 demons. Jesus sent the demons into a nearby herd of pigs. Mark 5:13 states: "...And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
In this case, the sin was to destroy intentionally the livelihood of the farmers who owned the pigs.
for the sake of argument, even if Jesus was sinless
we have just known that his flesh was under the control of another being (the father)
His power to do miracles came from the Father.
His knowledge came to him as revealed from the Father.
his morality and how he should act and to avoid sin (if true)revealed to him from the Father too .
WE EXPECT INCARNATED GOD TO BE SINLESS BUT WE EXPECT HIM NOT TO LACK THE OTHER ATTRIBUTES OF HIS DIVINITY AS WELL..
in other words, What he gains by being sinless,he loses for his lack of omniscience.!
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Yes that is my thought which I supported by documentations in the previous link......
You may have "supported" it, but you didn't prove anything. So you are guessing and theorizing in an effort to discredit the Gospel account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Just be factual...
That is what I'm attempting to do
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
who's playing the guessing game?
It is Christians
I think there are alot of guessing games going on in this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Are we ,as objective readers, supposed to play this game too?
When it comes to understanding the "mind" of God there are very few instances where that mystery is spelled out for us. There are many things contained in the Bible and the Qu'ran that are not explained when it comes to the actions of God. Isn't that why Muslims say "Allah know best"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
The honest,objective readers are not obliged to enter his mind .......
I agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
all what they need his words ,what he uttered ,not what he ever might have thought
In many instances, Christ taught with parables. If all you needed was His words, you miss the point of His sermons. To come to terms with faith and spirituality it takes introspection and study. That is why God gave us a brain capable of doing it. I agree that there are no concrete answers to Christ's thought process on the cross, and nobody has suggested that there is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Job 15:6
"Your own mouth condemns you, and not I; And your own lips testify against you.
As obviously what he uttered condemns him ,that is why Christians let his words and try to enter his mind.........
You're whole premise is nonsensical. If the the authors of Matthew and Luke thought Christ's statements on the cross "condemned" Him, and according to you they were writing a work of fiction, why would they put the statement in the Gospel account to begin with? You are attempting to discredit the Gospel authors and Christ at the same time, and it doesn't create a very coherent argument...other than to simply be argumentative.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
having entered his perfect mind and found the plan of salvation and his readiness to suffer without any trace for any ideas that might makes him desperate, they rushed outside his mind ,letting him all ,instead seeking the help of Psalm in order defend the absurd:
Not sure I can make sense of that. But I believe I addressed that above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Let's see if Psalm might help their case:
In previous discussion Grace-seeker claimed the same:
I posted
Mark 1:13 And he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan.
Which is why I stated that Christ had the capacity to be tempted. Christ did not fall into temptation because He was sinless and only followed the Will of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
The claim that he never sinned is a myth
A sample from the NT proved himself sinful :
while he advised "...But anyone who says 'You fool' will be in danger of the hell fire" (NIV)
yet,He refers to the Pharisees as "you fools,"In Matthew 23:13-36, "blind fools," extortionists, sons of serpents, a brood of vipers
In the first verse from Matthew 5:22, Christ is referring to unrighteous anger. In other verses, such as Eph 4:26, Christ makes mention of righteous anger. In James 1:20, Christ makes mention of unrighteous anger. That is even more apparent if one looks at Psalm 14:1, which says "The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God." So Christ's treatment of the hypocritical Pharisees was out of righteous anger, the righteous anger of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
His Transferring demons into about 2,000 pigs: Mark 5:8-14, Matthew 8:28-34 and Luke 8:27-39 describe an incident in which Jesus exorcised a man who had been tormented by about 2,000 demons. Jesus sent the demons into a nearby herd of pigs. Mark 5:13 states: "...And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
In this case, the sin was to destroy intentionally the livelihood of the farmers who owned the pigs.
If you read the totality, it is apparent that the demons killed the pigs.
27
When he came ashore a man from the town who was possessed by demons met him. For a long time he had not worn clothes; he did not live in a house, but lived among the tombs.
28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him; in a loud voice he shouted, "What have you to do with me, Jesus, son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!"
29
For he had ordered the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (It had taken hold of him many times, and he used to be bound with chains and shackles as a restraint, but he would break his bonds and be driven by the demon into deserted places.)
30
Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" 10 He replied, "Legion," because many demons had entered him.
31
And they pleaded with him not to order them to depart to the abyss. 11
32
A herd of many swine was feeding there on the hillside, and they pleaded with him to allow them to enter those swine; and he let them.
33
The demons came out of the man and entered the swine, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
34
When the swineherds saw what had happened, they ran away and reported the incident in the town and throughout the countryside.
I don't see a sin here, only demons causing havok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
for the sake of argument, even if Jesus was sinless
we have just known that his flesh was under the control of another being (the father)
No, His flesh was not under "control", He simply adhered to the Will of the Father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
His power to do miracles came from the Father.
That is true
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
His knowledge came to him as revealed from the Father.
Agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
his morality and how he should act and to avoid sin (if true)revealed to him from the Father too .
Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
WE EXPECT INCARNATED GOD TO BE SINLESS BUT WE EXPECT HIM NOT TO LACK THE OTHER ATTRIBUTES OF HIS DIVINITY AS WELL..
That may be what you "expect", but it isn't the reality of what Christians believe Christ to be. Without a full humanity, Christ's sacrifice would have been less than perfect. Atonement would not have been achieved. Christ's other "attributes" were emptied or set aside in light of his goal of redemption between God and man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
in other words, What he gains by being sinless,he loses for his lack of omniscience.!
Christ wasn't out to "gain" anything, only the Will of God and atonement for sin.
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
When it comes to understanding the "mind" of God there are very few instances where that mystery is spelled out for us.
there you go again !
It is not understanding the "mind" of God,but the word of God
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
In many instances, Christ taught with parables.
but in that instance and situation he was neither teaching nor his words
(my God my God why have you forsaken me) could be a parables of anything......
what he was teaching or highlighting by (my God my God why have you forsaken me)?
was he bringing our attention that his death is prophesied in the Old Testament?
how many times he taught that before?
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be delivered up into the hands of men; and they shall kill him(Matt. 17:22-23).the same (Matt. 20:17-19). and .(Luke 24:46). etc........
What was he looking for?!!!
A coward,desperate cry for help teaches nothing......
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
You're whole premise is nonsensical. If the the authors of Matthew and Luke thought Christ's statements on the cross "condemned" Him, and according to you they were writing a work of fiction, why would they put the statement in the Gospel account to begin with?
you ask why the writers would put inappropriate statements in their narratives?
the answer: because
1-they weren't inspired from God the almighty .
2-They tried by all means giving some Old Testament flavor to their narratives,and their zeal had blinded their eyes , resulted in unbelievable number of Old Testament misquoted,twisted,perverted passages in their narratives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
You are attempting to discredit the Gospel authors and Christ at the same time
If the gospel authors proved themselves to be un-trustworthy ,would turn the christ you are worshiping ,as introduced by them , to be a Christ of their own imagination. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
If you read the totality, it is apparent that the demons killed the pigs..
and who allowed them to go there causing the damage?
Mark 11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs....
you argue exactly as someone set a house on fire and burned it all and when be accused he would answer:
I didn't burn it ,it was the fire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
In the first verse from Matthew 5:22, Christ is referring to unrighteous anger. In other verses, such as Eph 4:26, Christ makes mention of righteous anger.
Righteous anger?
let's see what is the biblical righteous and unrighteous anger and apply it to the behaviour of Jesus(according to the NT)
the writer of James adviced
James 1:20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires
but as there is no way but to feel angry sometimes , so
Ephesians 4:26-27."Be angry, and yet do not sin.
how to be sinful while angry?
Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
The anger that leads to calling others sons of serpents(the case of jesus in Mt 23:13-36),by no mean be called righteous anger .....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
Which is why I stated that Christ had the capacity to be tempted.
you are playing with words!
you should say:Christ had the capacity to resist temptation.
resisting temptation is something and be tempted is another.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
Christ did not fall into temptation because He was sinless
that is false assumption, resisting temptation has nothing to do with being sinless If resisting temptation in some occasion makes one to be called sinless then Joseph was sinless
Genesis 39:7-12; Joseph Tempted by Potiphars
7 And it came to pass after these things, that his master’s wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me. 8 But he refused, and said unto his master’s wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand; 9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
there you go again !
It is not understanding the "mind" of God,but the word of God
What would you consider to be the Word of God? Every sentence that Christ uttered? Or the Word that Christ taught, as the Sermon on the Mount?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
but in that instance and situation he was neither teaching nor his words
(my God my God why have you forsaken me) could be a parables of anything......
I didn't say the particular words "Why have you forsaken me" were part of a parable, I was responding to your assertion that to understand Christ only required a literal reading of His words. In some cases that was true, but in others it requires more thought and understanding of Scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
what he was teaching or highlighting by (my God my God why have you forsaken me)?
Perhaps He wasn't teaching anything, and this was a literal cry of despair. Or perhaps He was still teaching, with use of an OT Psalm. As we have established, it is unknown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
was he bringing our attention that his death is prophesied in the Old Testament?
Possibly
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
how many times he taught that before?
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be delivered up into the hands of men; and they shall kill him(Matt. 17:22-23).the same (Matt. 20:17-19). and .(Luke 24:46). etc........
What was he looking for?!!!
A coward,desperate cry for help teaches nothing......
Christ's time on the cross wasn't about looking for anything or teaching anything. It was suffering. During this time of suffering, Christ is said to have uttered seven statements. Some of them profound, some of them as simple as "I am thirsty." Christ's cries of pain and despair are a reminder of what He was going through. As for the particular sentence in question, we have established there is no proveable evidence as to what it meant or its significance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
you ask why the writers would put inappropriate statements in their narratives?
the answer: because
1-they weren't inspired from God the almighty .
2-They tried by all means giving some Old Testament flavor to their narratives,and their zeal had blinded their eyes , resulted in unbelievable number of Old Testament misquoted,twisted,perverted passages in their narratives.
Such as?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
If the gospel authors proved themselves to be un-trustworthy ,would turn the christ you are worshiping ,as introduced by them , to be a Christ of their own imagination. ...
Do you have any evidence that they were untrustworthy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
and who allowed them to go there causing the damage?
Mark 11A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs....
you argue exactly as someone set a house on fire and burned it all and when be accused he would answer:
I didn't burn it ,it was the fire.
The demons who entered the pigs led to their destruction. Christ simply removed them from the individual and allowed them to enter the pigs. Why? Who knows. It was obvious from the verse that Christ could have sent them to the "abyss". He did not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Righteous anger?
let's see what is the biblical righteous and unrighteous anger and apply it to the behaviour of Jesus(according to the NT)
the writer of James adviced
James 1:20 for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires
but as there is no way but to feel angry sometimes , so
Ephesians 4:26-27."Be angry, and yet do not sin.
how to be sinful while angry?
Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
The anger that leads to calling others sons of serpents(the case of jesus in Mt 23:13-36),by no mean be called righteous anger .....
And you are ignoring the verses I cited for you. There is righteous anger, which is not anger about what one has said about you, but about what one is doing to others. Should God not be angry with those who hurt the innocent? Unrighteous anger, as outlined in Matthew 5:22, is destructive anger and unnecessarily demeaning. Of course Christ was angered by the acts of the Pharisees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
you are playing with words!
you should say:Christ had the capacity to resist temptation.
resisting temptation is something and be tempted is another.....
Talk about playing with words. Okay, Christ, as a human being, could have fallen into temptation. All it would have taken was Christ ignoring the Will of God. However, Christ could not be tempted into doing that. He endured many days of Satan's temptations, and was not swayed by those temptations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
that is false assumption, resisting temptation has nothing to do with being sinless If resisting temptation in some occasion makes one to be called sinless then Joseph was sinless
I didn't say resisting temptation makes one sinless. I stated that Christ, who did not have a sinful nature, could not be tempted.
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
glo
Reading the Qu'ran has been a convicting experience for you, but it hasn't for me.
My husband, who is an atheist, has read both books and hasn't been convinced by either.
You'll forgive me for hijacking the thread to point out.. you have not read the Quran!.. I direct your attention of course to your own thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...practices.html
where you allege that, there is no mention of pilgrimage in the Quran, forgoing amongst all verses the very chapter so entitled that it is a 'Mohammad practice'
So how can you speak of conviction based on reading?
It is your desire to be christian which is fine, but there you've done no comparative analysis-- again (to which you are so entitled) but I'd really refrain from making such statements as if this were an intelligent decision on your part, it isn't, it is not even intuitive as is Christianity is very counter intuitive.. it is merely an endogenous call you have answered as is in all of us, which is the desire to worship.. no different in some than the desire to worship money as well with like conviction.
Good luck with your chosen faith
cheers
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
you repeat yourself !
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
Unrighteous anger, as outlined in Matthew 5:22,
keltoi ,keltoi ..........
Why don't you practice some of this so called righteous anger in your next post ,calling Imam ,who is opposing your views, son of serpents ...
would you? and why
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
Talk about playing with words. Okay, Christ, as a human being, could have fallen into temptation.
and Christ as a full God could not only have never fallen into temptation,but also he could have never ever experienced the temptation itself
James 1:13 God cannot be tempted with evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
2-They tried by all means giving some Old Testament flavor to their narratives,and their zeal had blinded their eyes , resulted in unbelievable number of Old Testament misquoted,twisted,perverted passages in their narratives.
Such as?
Isaiah 7:14Matthew 2:15,Luke 24:46.Matthew (27:9-10).
Matthew (2:23).Matthew(21:1-7, ).(John 19:23-24)Matthew (27:34)
and other dozens .....
Just pick any, and you know the proper place(which I will resume discussion there soon inshaAllah) to discuss it ...
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-jesus-2.html
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
you repeat yourself !
keltoi ,keltoi ..........
Why don't you practice some of this so called righteous anger in your next post ,calling Imam ,who is opposing your views, son of serpents ...
would you? and why
You obviously didn't read or comprehend my post if this is your response. So I will repeat it. As described in the NT, righteous anger is that which comes from the suffering of innocents, or what someone does to others. Unrighteous anger would be that which is unneccessarily destructive. Anger that someone called you a name would be in that list.
When Christ showed anger in the temple it was due to the acts of the Pharisees, who were ignoring the plight of the suffering and were practicing hypocrisy in the name of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
and Christ as a full God could not only have never fallen into temptation,but also he could have never ever experienced the temptation itself
James 1:13 God cannot be tempted with evil.
Quite simply, that is not the case.
For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted. (NASB) Heb 2:18
... but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. (NASB) Hebrews 4:15
You cited the passage from James, which is of course true. God cannot be tempted with evil. God is Spirit. God is Holy. However, Christ, who was also of the flesh, experienced all the temptations of the flesh that we do. It wasn't Christ's divinity, or Spirit, that was tempted, but His flesh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
Isaiah 7:14Matthew 2:15,Luke 24:46.Matthew (27:9-10).
Matthew (2:23).Matthew(21:1-7, ).(John 19:23-24)Matthew (27:34)
and other dozens .....
Just pick any, and you know the proper place(which I will resume discussion there soon inshaAllah) to discuss it ...
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...e-jesus-2.html
I will go over them when I can
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
you repeat yourself !
keltoi ,keltoi ..........
Why don't you practice some of this so called righteous anger in your next post ,calling Imam ,who is opposing your views, son of serpents ...
would you? and why
It is called being a sanctimonious Tartuffe--- rather rampant in the fundie community, they are all molded from the same plate as Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, and Jimmy Swaggert etc... especially when you go after the very marrow of their beliefs.. God impregnating women with himself is a little sinister and seems to breed sinister personalities.. How else can you defend that in the 21st century save not for anger followed by attacks?
:w:
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Argon Gossamer
It is called being a sanctimonious Tartuffe--- rather rampant in the fundie community, they are all molded from the same plate as Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham, and Jimmy Swaggert etc... especially when you go after the very marrow of their beliefs.. God impregnating women with himself is a little sinister and seems to breed sinister personalities.. How else can you defend that in the 21st century save not for anger followed by attacks?
:w:
I don't see where I have attacked Imam at all. As for the rest of that post, I'll let the irony speak for itself.
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
I don't see where I have attacked Imam at all. As for the rest of that post, I'll let the irony speak for itself.
Was my post addressing you? There is no irony in my post at all.. I haven't adjectives to describe Christianity and its reps. for other than what it actually is!
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
:sl:
peace
as my last post is the last one in my discussion with keltoi ...
I would like to back again to the thread title
what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
and would rather ask :
Where the last words were put in the mouth of Jesus(peace be upon him) by the New testament writers ,came from?
The answer:
As for Matthew:
one doesn't need a great deal of wisdom to realize that the (obsessed with quoting the old testament ) writer of Matthew put such words in his passion
Matthew 27:46 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
due to his wish of a passion with old testament flavor.....
but we have already seen with proof text how he exposed himself ,damaged the context of his narrative,gave us one of the clues for his dishonesty which is a normal result of him being zealous for selling his own agenda and his sect...
As for Luke:
luke on the other hand was not such person who was obsessed by the Old Testament language ,one shouldn't wonder why he while finishing writing his passion,unlike the desperate words of the writer of Matthew ,chose such words of trust
“Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46)
In other words their words are not based on a hearsay accounts but mere their own fantasies...
Peace
:w:
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Imam
:sl:
peace
as my last post is the last one in my discussion with keltoi ...
I would like to back again to the thread title
what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
and would rather ask :
Where the last words were put in the mouth of Jesus(peace be upon him) by the New testament writers ,came from?
The answer:
As for Matthew:
one doesn't need a great deal of wisdom to realize that the (obsessed with quoting the old testament ) writer of Matthew put such words in his passion
Matthew 27:46 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
due to his wish of a passion with old testament flavor.....
but we have already seen with proof text how he exposed himself ,damaged the context of his narrative,gave us one of the clues for his dishonesty which is a normal result of him being zealous for selling his own agenda and his sect...
As for Luke:
luke on the other hand was not such person who was obsessed by the Old Testament language ,one shouldn't wonder why he while finishing writing his passion,unlike the desperate words of the writer of Matthew ,chose such words of trust
“Father, into Your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46)
In other words their words are not based on a hearsay accounts but mere their own fantasies...
Peace
:w:
The Gospel writers give different accounts of the same event. They are not identical, and aren't meant to be identical. Matthew, because he was writing to the Jews, included the Old Testament prophecies. Mark, writing to the Greeks, did not include many prophecies but writes mostly on the actions of Christ's life.
The same situation occurs when it comes to the angels at the tomb. Matthew records one, while Luke and John record two. They are recording particular events from a particular perspective. Matthew focused on the angel that talked to Mary, while Luke and John speak of the event in more general terms.
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
The Gospel writers give different accounts of the same event. They are not identical, and aren't meant to be identical. Matthew, because he was writing to the Jews, included the Old Testament prophecies. Mark, writing to the Greeks, did not include many prophecies but writes mostly on the actions of Christ's life.
The same situation occurs when it comes to the angels at the tomb. Matthew records one, while Luke and John record two. They are recording particular events from a particular perspective. Matthew focused on the angel that talked to Mary, while Luke and John speak of the event in more general terms.
but it is not that straight forward is it as this is supposed to be inspired by the holy spirit, the 3rd of your trinity.
so either God to you was not capable of writing things the same way, i.e he made mistakes or he was capable in which case the mistakes are deliberate and meant to be lies and confusing.
my Allah does not lie and my Allah does not make mistakes.
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dawud_uk
but it is not that straight forward is it as this is supposed to be inspired by the holy spirit, the 3rd of your trinity.
so either God to you was not capable of writing things the same way, i.e he made mistakes or he was capable in which case the mistakes are deliberate and meant to be lies and confusing.
my Allah does not lie and my Allah does not make mistakes.
Christians do not believe God writes books. We do believe in inspired writings, but not some identical work of literature that God is the "author" of. So writing identical works is not a sign of inspiration from the Christian point of view. The Gospel writers each give a different perspective of the same event. They are not identical.
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
inspired by the imagination? by air? by the devil? by the whims of men? by someone's fancy?
Does anyone else see a problem with 'inspired writing that contradicts itself' that is meant to be followed by the herds? :hmm:
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Keltoi
Christians do not believe God writes books. We do believe in inspired writings, but not some identical work of literature that God is the "author" of. So writing identical works is not a sign of inspiration from the Christian point of view. The Gospel writers each give a different perspective of the same event. They are not identical.
so you admit you follow a flawed set of documents that you cannot tell whether one thing is a fact or another?
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;
Quote:
but it is not that straight forward is it as this is supposed to be inspired by the holy spirit, the 3rd of your trinity.
so either God to you was not capable of writing things the same way, i.e he made mistakes or he was capable in which case the mistakes are deliberate and meant to be lies and confusing.
If God has the power to create the universe and life, then he also has the power to inspire and edit the Bible in the way God desires. No man is more powerful than God, and I see the work of God in the Holy Bible, it speaks with truth, power and authority.
Quote:
my Allah does not lie and my Allah does not make mistakes.
Your Allah who created you also created me, the same God hears all our prayers, I believe we can learn from each other.
In the spirit of praying for justice, peace and reconciliation between all people.
Eric
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Re: For the Christians, what are the last words of Jesus (as)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Dawud_uk;
If God has the power to create the universe and life, then he also has the power to inspire and edit the Bible in the way God desires. No man is more powerful than God, and I see the work of God in the Holy Bible, it speaks with truth, power and authority.
Your Allah who created you also created me, the same God hears all our prayers, I believe we can learn from each other.
In the spirit of praying for justice, peace and reconciliation between all people.
Eric
eric, thanks for the kind words but you didnt answer any of the questions really,
yes God can create the bible as he chooses, but why then did he choose to have mistakes if this was meant to be a book of guidance for mankind?
