Muslims point to the character of Prophet Muhammad pbuh as the pinnacle of charity, kindness, justice... basically morality. In addition we have the other Prophets such as Moses pbuh and Jesus pbuh.
These figures and their teachings and have served as the inspiration for billions to follow in their shadows and uplift their lives. They have moved the entire world with their deeds and most of all, devotion to Allah. They turned savages into saints. They lived lives of simplicity. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh only owned the bare necessities of life and left only his mule and his small home after his death. Among his last words were: “We the community of Prophets are not inherited. Whatever we leave is for charity.”
What do they have in common? They were the most religious and pious human beings in history.
Where are the atheist parallels? What atheist has ever moved so many heart? Served as an example for so many lives?
None has. There has never been a comparable atheist in history to these figures. Why not? If these Prophets were liars or mad, surely it would be a simple matter to outdo them?
Important Note: Do not start talking about "religious people have done bad things in their name" because this is about the PROPHETS. Moreover, we all know that none of these religions ask us to be rapists or thieves and those sinful actions have no basis in the character of the Prophets. So drop it.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 06-26-2009 at 07:23 PM.
Atheism has been so oppressed for so long that many great people may have been atheists, but were afraid of the consequences of being thought a heretic.
We are a minority.
Still, we have:
Albert Einstein : Left quite a warning regarding the consequences of aggression,
"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Susan B. Anthony : Helped to free the female population
Ayn Rand : Inspired millions to live their lives for themselves
I won't go into all the philosophical and scientific accomplishments...
Sorry, but apparently I can't edit my posts, so I'll have to make a lot of them as I get new ideas.
They were the most religious and pious human beings in history.
...And the only reason we even know about them is that they were religious leaders. The history is selective. Out of all the billions of people that ever lived, when you go that far back in time, we only know about a few.
We don't know about poor little Joe, who gave the last of his water to Jim while they were walking in the desert.
Morality does not come from religion, if that's what you're implying.
morality however was perfected by prophets - thats what he was implying i believe.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Atheism is a lack of religion. On a list of religions to select from I would select "none." There is no faith involved. If you provide rational arguments for why a god exists I will listen.
format_quote Originally Posted by convert
In that case: the almighty dollar.
...more like human rights.
Libertarianism: a broad spectrum of political philosophies which seek to maximize individual liberty and minimize the state.
1. Life as we know it ultimately is or leads to suffering/uneasiness in one way or another.
I rarely suffer.
2. Suffering is caused by craving or attachments to worldly pleasures of all kinds. This is often expressed as a deluded clinging to a certain sense of existence, to selfhood, or to the things or phenomena that we consider the cause of happiness or unhappiness.
Sorry, but I enjoy existence.
3. Suffering ends when craving ends, when one is freed from desire. This is achieved by eliminating all delusion, thereby reaching a liberated state of Enlightenment
Desire is my internal drive. Without desire I may as well just be a stagnant puddle.
Are there not buddhists who see him as a spiritual figure? Hardly the legacy of an "atheistic counter-example". Moreover, the buddhist texts are possibly more corrupted (people added and took out stuff) and mixed up than the Bible.
Are there not buddhists who see him as a spiritual figure? Hardly the legacy of an "atheistic counter-example".
The counter-example of the Buddha undermines your thesis, at least insofar as any need for God or gods is concerned... and let's try and remember what 'atheism' actually means. You can still present a weakened version, though, that I (if not Gubbleknucker) would accept.
Certainly, like the Abramhamic prophets the Buddha is a religious figure, but the fact remains that he quite easily matches those prophets in all the respects you mentioned except, obviously, 'devotion to Allah'. And that really is the point; for religious figures being moral examplars is part of the job description, and obviously as religious figures the individuals - and stories of their conduct - become well known. No prophet could be a prophet, or at least one taken seriously, if he remained an unrepentant 'nasty piece of work'. Add to that a healthy historical distance and a history of (presumably) friendly editors and the explanation becomes clear. Even Mohammed had enemies - rather more of them than the Buddha I suggest - yet we never get to hear what they thought about his conduct.
Now look at the poor old 'modern' atheist - of the 'amystical' variety. No historical distance and friendly editors to hide behind, in most cases anyway. But even then they could live their whole lives as paradigms of morality, kindliness and altruism. And nobody, except those they met, would ever get to know about it.. indeed it is in the nature of such people to be humble. Exactly the same is true of those prophets and the Buddha, but the difference in their case is that because they were associated with 'religion' in some respect people recorded or remembered what they did and so we got to hear about it anyway.
The counter-example of the Buddha undermines your thesis, at least insofar as any need for God or gods is concerned... and let's try and remember what 'atheism' actually means. You can still present a weakened version, though, that I (if not Gubbleknucker) would accept.
Certainly, like the Abramhamic prophets the Buddha is a religious figure, but the fact remains that he quite easily matches those prophets in all the respects you mentioned except, obviously, 'devotion to Allah'. And that really is the point; for religious figures being moral examplars is part of the job description, and obviously as religious figures the individuals - and stories of their conduct - become well known. No prophet could be a prophet, or at least one taken seriously, if he remained an unrepentant 'nasty piece of work'. Add to that a healthy historical distance and a history of (presumably) friendly editors and the explanation becomes clear. Even Mohammed had enemies - rather more of them than the Buddha I suggest - yet we never get to hear what they thought about his conduct.
Now look at the poor old 'modern' atheist - of the 'amystical' variety. No historical distance and friendly editors to hide behind, in most cases anyway. But even then they could live their whole lives as paradigms of morality, kindliness and altruism. And nobody, except those they met, would ever get to know about it.. indeed it is in the nature of such people to be humble. Exactly the same is true of those prophets and the Buddha, but the difference in their case is that because they were associated with 'religion' in some respect people recorded or remembered what they did and so we got to hear about it anyway.
I disagree with most if not all of your points. I got a paper to right, so forgive me if my answer seems a bit disorganized. I'll come back to what I missed later.
1. The Buddhist scriptures have no guarantee of authenticity. You have no clue as to if what you have today is what Buddha actually said. I suspect that the texts, just like in other religions, was edited as Buddhism evolved.
2. Saying Buddha was comparable to Muhammad saw is like saying the president of the politics club in school is comparable to the president of the United States. I don't see previously warring people united under one banner, entire systems of government, philosophy, and morality flourishing because of him. Buddhism is hardly as united as even Christianity, and to most people today, is reduced to crossing your legs on the floor, closing your eyes, and breathing deeply. Just a few examples as to why his actions and their repercussions across the globe and through history are not comparable to Muhammad's pbuh.
3. Though I understand atheism is the denial of God, theism is the belief in God and never have atheists been as united as Muslims.
4. I'm not going to get into the "atheists can live moral lives" debate. Too tired...
Mahayana Buddhism is not only intellectual, but also it is devotional ... in Mahayana, Buddha was taken as God, as Supreme Reality itself that descended on the earth in human form for the good of mankind.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 06-27-2009 at 03:44 AM.
Atheism has been so oppressed for so long that many great people may have been atheists, but were afraid of the consequences of being thought a heretic.
We are a minority.
Still, we have:
Albert Einstein : Left quite a warning regarding the consequences of aggression,
"I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
Susan B. Anthony : Helped to free the female population
Ayn Rand : Inspired millions to live their lives for themselves
I won't go into all the philosophical and scientific accomplishments...
Nope sorry. The "scared to come out" excuse can't work. Muslims were tortured, killed, and persecuted severely in their beginning. Check history to see how the pagans tried to commit genocide against the early Muslims. Christians and Jews underwent similar persecution.
Fear did not stop the theists. But according to you, it stopped the atheists? Your leaders should have been braver!
And remember the note I put at the bottom of my first post. We are not talking about atheists in general. I am making the point that you have not had a single uniting leader to serve as an example and guide like us....ever.
Last edited by AntiKarateKid; 06-27-2009 at 03:46 AM.
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