Logical proof for the existence of holy god.

Ali, if the father exists and the son doesn't realize he exists, you'd think the father would change that. Especially if the father is all powerful. If for some reason the father needs to hide himself, only sending some ambiguous postcards that the other brothers argue over what they mean, I don't think he'd be too upset if the one son doesn't believe he's out there. I think he'd be proud anyway. I certainly wouldn't think he'd punish the son with eternal torture. And if he did so... he wouldn't deserve any respect to begin with.

Ali, I do think you are on to something though. I think that in the Abrahamic faiths (not in all religion mind you) authoritarianism is key. You must submit and obey without question and it is seen as a virtue to do so. Its rare that you find a believer in this God who then doesn't go on to say its good to worship and obey him. Many non believers ARE too rebellious to get behind this (and if they go religious they tend to gravitate to other sorts of religion). Had Abraham turned on God and refused to put his son Isaac to death (sacrifice him), they would cheer him whereas the bible would boo him. They would not afford God respect and obedience solely because he created them, they'd need more. They'd need to deem him worthy. Which means they'd need to judge God, to question authority, which is something completely unthinkable, unacceptable and offensive to the authoritarian believers.

And this sort of personality difference does carry over into your analogy (most analogies of humans to gods don't carry over due to God's unlimited power, which humans lack). Should one obey and honor their father simply because he is her father? Should you ever turn against your father? No matter how much wrong he does? Could you come to replace your biological father with an adopted father, who did not create you but who has treated you better? I think these questions may relate to those in the paragraph above.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus

Would "desires" be a more appropriate word, then?

Based on my understanding of the word "desires" I find it to appropriate.

Of course now I have to go back and look at my post and see it it still applies.


It is mean to make me think.I get a headache when I think.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus

I believe that premise is arrogant. To believe that if someone believes different than you then they are either ignorant or full of themselves is a bit arrogant, don't you think?

you misunderstood.

I say the disbelievers arrogant NOT because they have different beliefs. I could care less if anyone else worship a cow or a cross or money or their own intellect.
I say disbelievers arrogant because despite being created they refuse to acknowledge their creator, and this even after having numerous endless evidences and proofs presented to them that there is the one creator.

example in everyday life:
a normal person would always feel grateful to someone who give them money or presents. a normal person would always feel grateful for life to their mothers who bore them and gave birth and raised them up. Heck, a normal person would even feel deference to their own bosses.

Now what happens if:
a guy was dead, then a particular someone gave life to him, gave him air to breath, gave him sustenance, protect him from dangers, gave him food to eat, gave him shelter, etc etc.
but then this guy totally refuses to thank that particular someone, and not only that, he refuses to even acknowledge that particular someone exists!
Wouldn't you call this guy arrogant?
and that is even an understatement.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eliphaz

No it isn't palatable to me, but not for the reasons you have assumed. I do believe in a God, just not the 'Allah' of the Qur'an, for I do not believe that such a God could have created this universe. As you can see, my reasons for believing in God are different to those of the Justufy and Wa7abiScientist. To them, it is, as simple as God = morality, and without God there is no morality and, more importantly, no reward for moral deeds, and therefore no need to do moral deeds because one is not going to be rewarded for them.

the concept of morality in religion, well in Islam at least, is absolut because it comes from Allah SWT.

while human concept of morality changes with time and regions, at the very least .

What you consider immoral maybe a very moral thing to do for another person, and then how do you reconcile your moral values with others?

format_quote Originally Posted by titus

Interesting analogy Ali, and I understand your point, but my take on it would be a little different.

What if the two boys were raised without a father and only told stories about him. Imagine the two boys are raised to believe that their father is actually an extremely wealthy man who, when the time is right, is going to come back into their lives and give them all his money, but only on the condition that they do good things and that they worship him.

Now, the boys have no proof of this other than what they are told, so one boy believes in this father and the other one does not. The first boy does good things in the hope of gaining wealth, while the other boy is just as good, but not in order to gain the wealth. The second son does not disrespect the father, he simply does not believe he exists.

Now, does the father really exist? Who knows. If he does why does the father feel the need to have his children worship him as a condition for the reward? If the father truly loves the children would he really feel the need to punish one of the sons (despite his good deeds) simply because he did not worship his father?

Firstly, GranPa Woodrow said it right when he said that Allah is independent of all needs.

Coming to you Brother, just look around and you'll see proves everywhere of his existence, you may find not find them convincing though and that's a totally different question. The trees, the mountains, the animals and all that includes nature are proofs of His creation. The absolute symmetry and balance in nature on our dear earth cannot be a result of an accident called the big bang. There definitely is an architect behind all this. It all takes us back to the previous question of what one would consider as a proof or "that bright discovery of faith."

And the analogy, the father just does not show himself to his children, that's the only thing which is missing in this love. Apart from physically coming in front of his kids, the father does each and everything required of him for the good upbringing of those 2 sons. Just like any other father, he wants his children to prosper.

I'd go straight with "Allah" here rather than the example. Allah is the one who sends us sustenance. If He wishes He can hit any part of the world with any kind of disaster like a drought, flood, earthquake etc. Now, Allah does not require anything from us, not even worship. If all the theists in the world, give up their religions and just start having independent lives, its gonna make absolutely zero difference to Allah. He'll remain to be as supreme as ever. He is not a worldly king who needs a kingdom to be called The King. Allah was Allah even before the creation of the heavens and earth and He still had those 99 attributes which are mentioned in the Qur'an and He'll remain the same forever. What we're having a debate over here is about being a good person with/without faith whereas Allah is way above all of us. Just have a look at his attributes in this link. We humans can strive and become good or better but Allah is the best. We're just comparative, He's superlative. The point that I'm trying to stress is His decree of punishment for the unbelievers. Among His attributes are Al-'Adl and Al-Muqsit which mean "The Just." He has decreed the punishment for unbelievers because He's Just and there has to be a difference between those who are thankful to Him for His never-ending blessings and those who are not. Punishing any of us is not gonna increase or decrease His honour. As He states in the following verse:

What can Allah gain by your punishment, if ye are grateful and ye believe?

Surah An-Nisa - 4:147

What I've observed in many people (including some Muslims) is that they think that Allah is a tyrant (Nauzbillah) who has simply imposed His worship on humans which is absolutely not true. If He were a tyrant then He would have seized every wrong-doer right by the throat at the time he's committing sin. Rather he's Al-Ghaffaar, The One who forgives the sins of His slaves time and time again and keeps giving second chances to His slaves. We worship Him not solely because He has asked us to but because He deserves it. No matter how major a deed of humanity we do, we'll never be able to compensate to His blessings or show us our gratitude.

Prophet David (PBUH) once asked Allah to show him His blessings and Allah said "breathe."

Every breath that we take is a blessing from Allah.

Brother, the proofs are everywhere and the matter of reward/punishment is secondary. Primarily, its just about being thankful to HIM and gratitude is a major issue (which atheists lack making them miss out on the COMPLETE goodness).

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Ali, if the father exists and the son doesn't realize he exists, you'd think the father would change that. Especially if the father is all powerful. If for some reason the father needs to hide himself, only sending some ambiguous postcards that the other brothers argue over what they mean, I don't think he'd be too upset if the one son doesn't believe he's out there. I think he'd be proud anyway. I certainly wouldn't think he'd punish the son with eternal torture. And if he did so... he wouldn't deserve any respect to begin with.

Ali, I do think you are on to something though. I think that in the Abrahamic faiths (not in all religion mind you) authoritarianism is key. You must submit and obey without question and it is seen as a virtue to do so. Its rare that you find a believer in this God who then doesn't go on to say its good to worship and obey him. Many non believers ARE too rebellious to get behind this (and if they go religious they tend to gravitate to other sorts of religion). Had Abraham turned on God and refused to put his son Isaac to death (sacrifice him), they would cheer him whereas the bible would boo him. They would not afford God respect and obedience solely because he created them, they'd need more. They'd need to deem him worthy. Which means they'd need to judge God, to question authority, which is something completely unthinkable, unacceptable and offensive to the authoritarian believers.

And this sort of personality difference does carry over into your analogy (most analogies of humans to gods don't carry over due to God's unlimited power, which humans lack). Should one obey and honor their father simply because he is her father? Should you ever turn against your father? No matter how much wrong he does? Could you come to replace your biological father with an adopted father, who did not create you but who has treated you better? I think these questions may relate to those in the paragraph above.

Brother, I was not a believer all along. For the first 17-18 years of my life, I was a Muslim just because I had a Muslim name and my family called itself Muslim. There was even when I was really pissed with God whereas I'd hardly do any act of worship to please but slowly I discovered Islam with the help of a couple of friends and I discovered myself. Its not totally about authoritarianism, if it was then we wouldn't be discussing all this here. Rather regardless of the question you put forward, I'd just answer "He's God, worship him and stop asking questions", if it was just authoritarianism. I'm been through the road of atheism to a little extent and I accepted Islam with my own will and wish, I didn't just submit. I asked questions myself and got the answers sometimes through people and articles and a lot of times from within myself.

It would certainly offend believers to read:

They would not afford God respect and obedience solely because he created them, they'd need more. They'd need to deem him worthy. Which means they'd need to judge God.

Well, you see, its not just about creating you but also providing you with all the sustenance and everything in this world which you like. Being thankful for creating me, for the daily bread, for a beautiful family, for eyes to see, for a mouth to eat and even for the laptop which I'm using right now.

Your argument is giving the effect that God has done wrong, I wanna know what that is? He may delay justice or good for a while but that's also for our own benefit in the long, it doesn't make Him bad.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I could never see slavery as a good thing.

That could be because of what we've seen it as in history. It was exploitation by humans. If I give you a knife to cut an apple and you go with it and murder someone, does the blame go onto the knife or me?

I believe Trumble echoed my point quite well, and said what I was going to say before I could (and probably better).

If someone knew that he had a benefactor and refused to thank him, then I could see that as being arrogant.

But if someone does not believe they have a benefactor then how can they be arrogant for not thanking them?

The fact is that nobody has any proof this benefactor exists, other than the fact that other things exist. I am sorry, but I don't see mountains or rivers or trees as proof that there is a sentient omnipotent being. That is not arrogance, that is simply my belief.

premise 1: There are non muslim members on this board.

premise 2: they are either here to gather information about the Islamic religion or are here to denigrate, preach their own way of thought and try to instigate doubt.

premise 3: all of what they have said is not about knowing the Islamic religion, it is on the contrary opposing many of its principles and attacking core beliefs here on an Islamic board.

Premise 4: therefore the users here have an agenda in mind, and are arrogant to think they can influence anyone here.

My intent is not to influence. My intent is to exercise my brain. I like to have my beliefs challenged because one of two things are going to happen. I will either become stronger in my beliefs, or I will begin to question them. Either way I hope that I come closer to finding "truths". I have been swayed more than once by a discussion on such forums, and hopefully I have had the same impact on others.

It is the ones that post that believe they already know everything that I believe are the arrogant ones, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

Why do you assume I find it difficult to comprehend such easy fact?
That's not the essence of the discussion and i never ventured to state it is.

Because your explanation of the arrogance you mentioned assumes that the atheist knows god exists (else he'd fall into your ignorance category). And as Trumble noted, if somebody knows god exists, he isn't an atheist.

Posts like the one of yours he was responding to makes me wonder if theists can contemplate or understand that atheists really do not believe. We honestly do not believe your god exists anymore than we believe fairies do (that comparison isn't used to insult, its used to show just how much we don't believe). It isn't a matter of hiding from God or rebelling against God. We see nothing to hide from or rebel against (unless you count religious humans pushing their views)

Many posts and statements I see from believers do seem to assume that atheists are just pretending and reallly do believe. I used to have a similar condition in which I found it hard to accept that anybody could genuinely believe in God. I thought people were just going along with it as matter of social custom. Some who claim to believe certainly do so, but I've now come to recognize that others genuinely DO believe that this stuff is real.

A third phenomenon of this sort that I've encountered is some peculiar subset of believers who tell apostates that they never truly believed, for if they did they'd never have left the faith. I haven't encountered this in muslims yet but see it in Christians quite often. Of course the apostates in question certainly did believe, or at least they believed they believed

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Because your explanation of the arrogance you mentioned assumes that the atheist knows god exists (else he'd fall into your ignorance category). And as Trumble noted, if somebody knows god exists, he isn't an atheist.

Posts like the one of yours he was responding to makes me wonder if theists can contemplate or understand that atheists really do not believe. We honestly do not believe your god exists anymore than we believe fairies do (that comparison isn't used to insult, its used to show just how much we don't believe). It isn't a matter of hiding from God or rebelling against God. We see nothing to hide from or rebel against (unless you count religious humans pushing their views)

Many posts and statements I see from believers do seem to assume that atheists are just pretending and reallly do believe. I used to have a similar condition in which I found it hard to accept that anybody could genuinely believe in God. I thought people were just going along with it as matter of social custom. Some who claim to believe certainly do so, but I've now come to recognize that others genuinely DO believe that this stuff is real.

A third phenomenon of this sort that I've encountered is some peculiar subset of believers who tell apostates that they never truly believed, for if they did they'd never have left the faith. I haven't encountered this in muslims yet but see it in Christians quite often. Of course the apostates in question certainly did believe, or at least they believed they believed

I don't think anybody here is trying to say that you (the atheists) just pretend to not believe in Allah when you know he actually is there. The word "arrogance" has been used even in the Qur'an with reference to the unbelievers. There are many verses such as:

When it is said to him, "Fear Allah., He is led by arrogance to (more) crime.

Surah Al-Baqarah - 2:206

For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious

Surah An-Nisa - 4:36

Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

Surah An-Nisa - 4:172

To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin.

Surah Al-A'raf - 7:40

Allah even called iblis (satan) arrogant when he refused to prostrate to Adam (PBUH)

(Allah) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."

Surah Al-A'raf - 7:13