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    Junon's Avatar
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    Reformation - Catholic perspective

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    Salaam

    Some Brothers and sisters were asking a while back about the the Christain Reformation in Europe. I managed to dig this article out. Its old (written in the 1960s) but its interesting nevertheless. Amadeus85 mate, is this still considered the Catholic view?

    Part 1


    Why do Catholics regard the Protestant Reformation as deterimental to the best interests of religion?

    'Did not the great reform inaugurates by Luther in the 16th Century improve the spiritual and religious life of the people? Why then dont Catholics acclaim the work of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and the other
    reformers?'


    It is now generally agreed that the name Reformation is a misnomer. The International Encyclopedia declares that the upheaval should be more properly designated a revolution. In similar vein the
    Encyclopedia Britannica explains that the name, Reformation, is not of the modern historians framing and defines it as

    'the relgious and politcal revolution of the 16th C, of which the immediate result was the partial disruption of the Western Catholic Church and the establishment of various national and terrirorial churches' (Vol. 23, p. 4)
    This view, now so common among modern scholars, was expressed long ago by the Protestant historian, Cobbet, who declared that the religious change in England was not a reformation but a deformation.

    True, a reformation occurred but it was effected from within and not by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and their associates. They split the seamless garment of Christendom into a welter of warring sects and factions, whose progeny is converting much of the world into a bedlam of confuion and strife.

    The shift in opinion, which is reflected in the general agreement of modern scholars as to the unsuitablness of the term, Reformation, to mirror the true nature of the movement we are considering, is traceable in large part to the increasing recogintion of the large roles played by secular politcs, ecoomic interests and the passions of newly awakened nationalism in the mighty drama enacted on the stages of many lands in the 16th century.

    'That the relgious elements in the Refomration,' observes Professor James Harvey Robinson of Columbia University, 'have been greatly overestimated from a modern point of view can be hardly questioned' (Ibid).
    Similar is the testimony of the Protestant historian, Charles H Lea:

    'The motives, both remote and proximate, which led to the Lutheran revolt were largely secular rather than spiritual. We meany dismiss the relgious changes incdient to the Reformation with the remark that they were not the object sought' (Cambridge Modern History Vol 1.)
    To verify the conclusion of these scholars one has only to read Luthers first important appeal in his Address to the German Nobility. Scarcely adverting at all to relgious matters, the Wittenberg monk deals almost exclusively with the social, finaincal, educational, industrial and general moral problems of the day. His contemporary, Ulrich Von Hutten, regards the issues involved as purely secular.

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    Junon's Avatar
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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    In the 16th C the Chruch was teaching the truths of her divine founder Jesus Christ in their purity and integrity the same as she did in the first. She is still carrying on her great work of santification, charity and education. Social and politcal conidtions fostered by hostile civil rulers, however, seriously hampered the freedom of her efforts to correct certian abuses which had crept into the lives of some of the clergy and laity.

    For many decades saintly mean in the Church had struggled agaisnt the worldy spirit which characterised the lives of highly placed ecclesiastics. Many of these were imposed upon her by princes and kings, who often chose worldly minded men who had no vocation to the religous life. Not infequently these bishops and abbots bore themselves as secular rulers rather than as servants of the Church, and thus had a demoralising effect upon the spiritual and moral life of the lower clergy and people.

    While it is to be admitted that worldliness, avarice and laxity had crept into the conduct of some of the clergy, it is a gross exaggeration to depcit the Chruch as countenancing such laxity or lacking in the highest sanctity. During the period from 1400 to 1529 no fewer than 88 perosns who died in Italy were canonised as saints or beatifies as 'blesed' because of the eminent holiness of their lives. Partisan critics pass over in silence the life and work of the saintly bishops, abbots and priests and concentrate upon the unworthy expections and thus grossly distort the true picture.

    This is pointed out by the eminent historian Ludwig Von Pastor in his monumental History of the Popes: 'The records of all nations consist of the stories of crimes. virtue goes quietly on her way; vice and lawlnessness are always making a noise. The scapegoat is the talk of the town; the honest mand does his duty, and no one hears of him' (v). While writers on the Reformation commonly dwell on price bishops and abbots concerned with worldly interests, they pass over in silence glorious examples of extraordinary holiness at St Francis Xavier, St CAtherine of Siena, St Canisus and St Charles Borromeo.

    the prestige and authority of the Holy See had been seriously imparied through the Popes removal to Avignon, which obscured the universal character of the papacy in the minds of the Christain people. An even more severe blow was dealth by the disastorous papal schism, 1378-1418, which rendered it diffcult for many to know the identity of the true successort of St Pete. humanism and the REnaissance with their glorifiaction of the though and culture of ancient Greece and ROm introduced a flood of pagan ideas and ideals into the literature, art and life of Italy.

    The passions of nationalism began to assert themselves in the jealousy of princes and kings concerning the rights and preogatives of sovereigtny. Collisions between officals of Church and those of the State became the order of the day. These were the factors which crippled the efforts of the Church to effect a moral reformation from within the prepared the way for the relgious reovlution which was kindled by Luthers rebleelion agaisnt the auhtority fo the Holy See.

    Luther secured the backing of the princes by holding before them as bribes the confiscation of the churches property. He obtained the continued support of Philip, Landgrave of Hesse, by authorising him to take a second wife while continuing to live with his first one. By such unscrupulous means Luther secured the military backing of the temporal lords, that ensured the success of his revolt.

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    Junon's Avatar
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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    This fact is frankly acknowledged by the Encyclopedia Britianica which says:

    'Had the German princes not found it to their interests to enforce his principles he might never have been more than the leader of an obscure mystic sect. He was, moreover, no statesman. He was recklessly impetous in his temperament, coarse and grossly supertitous according to modern standards' (Vol 23).
    For the authority of the Holy See to interpret Scripture Luther substituted the right of the individual, thus introducing the principle of private interpretation which has divided Protestantism into hundreds of bickering sects. he invented the doctrine of justification by faith alone, rejectected the divine insitution of the priesthood, flaunted his vow of chastity and married a Bernardine nun who had left her covent. Thus did he discard some of the most basic doctrines of historic Christainity, universally held by Christains since the first centuries.

    Was Luther a champion of relgious freedom? No.

    'It is commonly said,' writes the notes historian John L Stodard, 'that Luther inuguarted the right of free investigation. Nothing less is true. He talked of it, as a reason for abandoning the traditions of the Church, but he did his utmost to bring about complete subjection to an unassailable Bible as he interpreted it! He insituted thus a Pope of printed paper, instead of a Pope of flesh and blood. Moreover, since he constitued himself the authorative interpreter of the Bible, he practically claimed for himself infallibility. One of Luthers contemporaries, Sebastian frank, wrote despondently: 'Even under the Papcy one had more freedom than now' (Stoddard, J. L Rebuilding a Lost Faith).
    This tyrannical attitude in matters of coscience was not confined to Luther. It prevailed among the reformers following in his footsteps. It was implicit in the system. In order to secure any cohesion in his ranks, it was necessary for each reformer to set up his private judgement as supreme and absolute, and to insist upon all his followers moulding their judgement in conformity with the pattern which he designed for them.

    Principles, however, have a way of working themselves out of their logical ends, regardless of the manner in which ther enunciators would at times seek to hold them in check, like prisoners on parole. This is what happend with the principle of private interpretation. it brought such anarchy, division and dissenstion into the relgious world that Luther confesses that there were in his day

    'nearly as many sects as there are heads' (De Wette, Dr Martin Luthers Beliefs III)
    In similar vein Professor Edward M. Hulme, speaking of Luther and his colleagues says:

    'the reformers came to llook upon intolerance as a law of self preservation. Luther anathemmatised everyone whos belief differed from his own. 'He who does not believe my doctrine; he once said 'is sure to be ****ed' (Edward Masline Hulme, 'the Protestant Revolution and the Catholic R
    reformation in Continental Europe, Century NY 1915)

  5. #4
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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Within the catholic church there are true people of God and some corrutped by demons just the same as in all religions and philosophies.
    Nowadays also in the Catholic Chuirch is a new Charismatic catholic church which is more in line with non catholic charismatic christian Churches.
    The charisma is a gift of the holy Ghost, although evil people also have "charisma" think of Hitler for example.
    The chaos of divisdions between churches mosques and synagoges is not truelt spiritual rather territorial flesh ways and if one takes Northern Ireland for example it is a minority from both communities which have been at war whilst most of the populations of both communities have lived in relative peace and respect

    Bless you

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    According to the traditional catholic view, protestantism is the spiritual child of talmudic judaism, just like arianism, husitism, religions of waldens and katars, humanism, liberalism, socialism, communism, national socialism and new left.
    Reformation - Catholic perspective

    This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.

    - Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    The Reformation was an enlightening yet horrific chapter of Christian history. Protestants and Catholics slaughtered each other in their hundreds, and Protestantism became prevelant in Northenr Europe, and Catholicism Southern Europe.

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85 View Post
    According to the traditional catholic view, protestantism is the spiritual child of talmudic judaism, just like arianism, husitism, religions of waldens and katars, humanism, liberalism, socialism, communism, national socialism and new left.
    Oh yes, we all know just how hilariously dilluded traditional Catholicism is.

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    freethinking's Avatar
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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85 View Post
    According to the traditional catholic view, protestantism is the spiritual child of talmudic judaism, just like arianism, husitism, religions of waldens and katars, humanism, liberalism, socialism, communism, national socialism and new left.
    Can you provide any examples of these wild claims?
    I write as a former catholic

    Bless you

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
    Can you provide any examples of these wild claims?
    I write as a former catholic

    Bless you
    These are not wild claims, but they are carefully hidden. Now I'm a little busy with my college, when I finish that, buy the book that I need, I will give all the facts.

    For the start - in the begining of reformation were involved jews expelled from Spain and who were staying since the end of XV century in southern Italy. There were personal contacts between Martin Luther and some of those talmudic jews.

    Rest of the story, with names and dates later.
    Reformation - Catholic perspective

    This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.

    - Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    I believe it was the Spanish Inquisition (a Catholic act), not the protestant Reformation, that was the reason for the expulsion of Jews from Spain.

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    I believe it was the Spanish Inquisition (a Catholic act), not the protestant Reformation, that was the reason for the expulsion of Jews from Spain.
    And the Islamic Moors. They were expelled, their mosques turned into churches and their libraries burnt.

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    I believe it was the Spanish Inquisition (a Catholic act), not the protestant Reformation, that was the reason for the expulsion of Jews from Spain.
    Of course that it was catholic act. The question is why jews were expelled? First of all because they helped muslims to conquer Spain, second because they (jews) were exploiting christian citizens by economy, third because jews were always fighting for their own messianic aims and the christian citizens were intended only to be slaves of Israel. I dont blame jews for that, its their national buisness, but they shouldnt blame medival Spain for self defence.
    Reformation - Catholic perspective

    This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.

    - Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85 View Post
    Rest of the story, with names and dates later.
    Don't forget now. I'm sure I'm not the only one dying to hear how liberalism, socialism, communism, and national socialism are the 'spiritual children' of of talmudic Judaism. I could do with a good laugh.

    P.S. Don't forget to include the Illuminati and Freemasons in there somewhere, will you?

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Trumble View Post
    Don't forget now. I'm sure I'm not the only one dying to hear how liberalism, socialism, communism, and national socialism are the 'spiritual children' of of talmudic Judaism. I could do with a good laugh.

    P.S. Don't forget to include the Illuminati and Freemasons in there somewhere, will you?

    Of course that I will do it, I just hope that it won't be deleted by our mods here, because that book contains also some very inconveniant facts about islam.

    As I said, dates, names and fact.



    That book was first published in 1934, the second edition was completely sold out by jewish groups.
    Reformation - Catholic perspective

    This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.

    - Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

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    aadil77's Avatar
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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85 View Post
    Of course that I will do it, I just hope that it won't be deleted by our mods here, because that book contains also some very inconveniant facts about islam.
    Like? Shouldn't be a problem if they're facts
    Reformation - Catholic perspective


    He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}]
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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Quote Originally Posted by aadil77 View Post
    Like? Shouldn't be a problem if they're facts

    Everything in time, now back to the topic pps.
    Reformation - Catholic perspective

    This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.

    - Corneliu Zelea Codreanu

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    Re: Reformation - Catholic perspective

    Now I'm curious. Did you finish the book?


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