Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc

It is enough for me that in a single ayat of the Quran, Allah destroyed the very foundation of Christianity

you know Bro ..... even if we skip the Quran and study the new testament besides the old testament ,objectively ,without preconceived conclusion ,we could find out that the foundation of Christianity (Christ is the messiah who was sacrificed to erase sins) is baseless .....

peace

to continue with the Holy Quran

verse 4:157 In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings ";- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their disbelieve, and little is it they believe;That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and those who differ about it are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not,nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise,And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in (him,it) before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them.


the context of the verse is about the group of Jews who opposed Jesus ,and propagated falsehoods regarding him related to the three basic things of his life
1-BIRTH : Illegal one accusing his mother with adultery .
2-MISSION: He was a magician deceiving the sons of Israel(that is mentioned in another verse).
3-DEATH : They have killed him .


Allah refuted their accusation against Mary ,now the quranic comment on their claim that it is them who put an end to the life of Jesus ,should be our focus now:

1- The Qur'an says they neither killed him nor crucified him ,so what follows? but (it)seemed (appeared,thought) so unto them ..

till now the verse tells ,his enemies from the Jews thought that they killed him and propagated that, while he wasn't ...

that may open the door to different arguments:

1- could they have tried to kill him ,got someone else who has his exact looking,on the cross (called the substitution theory) ?

2- could they have crucified him but he didn't die and escaped the cross "called the Swoon Theory"

3- could the meaning be ,that they (his enemies from the Jews) thought they killed while the fact they didn't kill him ,it was the Roman who did so?

4- could the meaning be ,they thought they killed him ,while the fact the righteous won't die spiritually .... the martyrs though people think they are dead ,yet they are alive in heaven ?


5- could he just disappeared from the scene ultimately ,and his sudden absence opened the door for conjecture that he was killed ??

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let's discuss how every theory be consistent with the holy Qur'an:


1- problems with "the substitution theory" :

A- If "shubbiha" to be understood as a reference to a physical appearance,likeness ,just where the noun that it refers to?! it can't be Jesus(if we accept the theory) ,so it has to be the crucifixion itself ... in other words no linguistic basis for the theory ...

b- the Islamic sources of that theory are mere opinions of 2 or 3 christian sahabi converts to Islam who may have been Gnostic Christians before conversion or orthodox(the majority of the ex-christian sahabas belonged to mainstream Christianity) but thought the gnostic believe in accord with the verse ..

to add ,the way Gnostics Christians define Jesus and his message is very different from the Islamic way ,so how could we trust their concept of the crucifixion ?!

c-more problem while we discuss the 5th meaning.


2- problems with "the Swoon Theory" :

A- such theory would get the word (shubbiha) as a reference to Jesus ,in other words Jesus himself appeared to be dead while he wasn't and later escaped the cross....

B- That theory could have been strong one ,if the words in ( 4:157 neither crucified him) ,and ( 5:110 Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee ..................I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs) . are absent .


3- problems with "the Jews killed him not ,the Romans did .theory"

A- such theory is suggested by William Montgomery Watt,and many other Christians......
the same previous objection ,how could Allah remind Jesus of restraining the violence of Children of Israel to him allowing the violence of the Romans ??!!!!!

B-more problem while we discuss the 5th meaning.

4-problems with " They thought he died but spiritually he can't die"

If they were sure he was killed physically ,what was the doubt and conjecture (mentioned in the verse later) about ?!


to conclude next post inshallah...


peace

to conclude the discussion about the noble verse ,we would go to :

The fifth and last argument :

The verse goes on and tells literally " and those who differed about it were full of doubts from it , with no knowledge about it, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him,it not,nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise"


first: "Those" is a pronoun refers to those people who during that time ,had differing,doubtful ,conjecture based opinions regarding what exactly happened to Jesus before his mission was terminated ......

using those expressions,the verse tells that the opinions regarding the matter ALL based on conjecture and not eyewitnesses report ....

the verse goes on "surety they killed him,it not,nay, God exalted him unto Himself "

in other words ,Allah says " nothing of your differing guessing is true" ,he wasn't killed but was exalted,raised to God .....

that weakens more the third theory, if the Quran suggests Roman crucifixion what was the doubt,conjecture about!

that understanding makes sense for me ,especially that we know that the disappearance of important figures opens the door to every color of conjecture ...

you remember for example ,Ben Laden years ago, some of his enemies propagated that he was killed ...and some people began to believe that ,not till he sent voice message that he is alive .... what if he didn't react forever?
wouldn't most people believe that he was really killed? wouldn't some others doubt(for some reasons) that it is him who was killed but someone else looks like him? wouldn't some others suggest him traveling from the place he was in, to isolate island marrying there (Mary Magdalena) :sunny:.. ......

that understanding not only Quranic supported ,but unlike others no problems associated ,and makes much sense .....

Amazingly ,we have some old and modern times scholars who held the previous understanding eg;

famous old ,hanbali scholar "Ibn Qayyim Al-Jawziyya" wrote in his book "Hidayat al-Hiyara "


"There is a disagreement regarding the meaning of the verse , some understand it as, a likeness to him of another ,who been crucified instead,was shown to them. others understood it as " that the Christians who believed in it ,it wasn't because they witnessed it,but his enemies of the Jews propagated his killing while he was raised to Allah and they believed them ..
whatever meaning ,remains the fact Jesus peace be upon him neither was killed nor crucified ..."

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Muhammad Asad, author of the well acclaimed Translation of the meaning of the Quran "The Message of the Qur'an",wrote:


" The Qur'an categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus. There exist,among Muslims, many fanciful legends telling us that at the last moment God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him (according to some accounts, that person was Judas),who was subsequently crucified in his place. However, none of these legends finds the slightest support in the Qur'an or in authentic Traditions, and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected. They represent no more than confused attempts at "harmonizing" the Qur'anic statement that Jesus was not crucified with the graphic description, in the Gospels, of his crucifixion. The story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the Qur'anic phrase "wa-lakin shubbiha lahum", which I render as "but it only appeared to them as if it had been so" To my mind, is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase wa-lakin shubbiha lahum, the more so as the expression shubbiha li is idiomatically synonymous with khuyyila 1i, "[a thing] became a fancied image to me", i.e., "in my mind" - in other words, "[it] seemed to me" (see Qamus,art. khayala, as well as Lane II, 833, and IV, 1500)."

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next post additional points related ,inshallah

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Eminent Tunisian scholar Ibn 'Ashur (1879 -1973)





wrote in his Quranic commentary(is considered one of the greatest tafsirs ever ) "Tafsir Al-Tahrir Wal Tanwir"





"Another possible meaning to the verse ,is that they confused the falsehoods with the truth .Arab says "khuyyila elaika" means "became a fancied image to your mind ,seemed to you" ,there wasn't someone looked like him,but the falsehoods came through the news of being killed,which was due to their (his enemies from the Jews) absolute hatred ....."

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Additional notes:

1- There is no Quranic clue to exclude the disciples of Jesus from those who listened to the conjecture of his enemies from the Jews , it is possible that some (or all) of his disciples believed such conjecture,if not why not? ....

2- Would it fair that Allah let them believe in his death by crucifixion and condemned them later for that?

the answer,why would anyone be condemned for believing (before the revelation of the Quran) that Jesus died that way?!

if there is something that the Quran condemns is to attache salvific significance to his death ,besides attaching divinity to his nature ....
the Quran doesn't attack those who were misinformed regarding, how the mission of Jesus was terminated.....
that is nothing to blame them for ,unless they intentionally attached false significance (blood atonement) to such death ......

Is it Islamic ,for those Jews who believed in Jesus and his true message,yet were misinformed and believed that he was killed,to be called "true christians" ? I think so ,if not, why not?!!!

Crucifixion in the bible



where did the crucifixion stories come from??

you know the sayings ,"You are what you eat" and "you are what you read" ?

It seems that such saying, fits perfectly with the writers of the new testament...

most detail of the life of Jesus as presented in the Gospels relates back to some prior Hebrew scripture, mostly from the scriptures that we now call the Old Testament, though some elements of the Gospels appear to be based on other non-scriptural works as well.

right now our focus is on the crucifixion,resurrection narrative....
the following quotations would shows how their details of the crucifixion scenes are drawn directly from the older scriptures (the book that they often used to read) ....

the authors either explicitly references Hebrew scriptures, uses Hebrew scriptures for underlying theme and quote or paraphrases Hebrew scripture without indicating they have done so ....



1- mocking ,hurl insults,He trusts in the LORD;let the LORD rescue him !


Matthew 27:They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him ......................................
39 Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him.

was the writer inspired by God,or informed by eyewitnesses testimony? ....... just compare the previous with the old testament (the book that he almost daily read)...

Psalm 22:7 All who see me mock me;they hurl insults, shaking their heads:8 "He trusts in the LORD;let the LORD rescue him.Let him deliver him,since he delights in him."

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Want more details of the crucifixion story that was created by combining elements from the old testament? here you are


2- My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Mark and Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

based clearly on the

Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
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It seems that the writer of Luke ,wasn't satisfied by such desperate call ,written by Mark ,so he included another one

Luke 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit"

based on

Psalm 31:5 " Into thine hand I commit my spirit."

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3- the sun go down at noon and darken the earth


Matthew 27:45 From the sixth hour( noon) until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

based on

Amos 8:
8 "Will not the land tremble for this, and all who live in it mourn? ... 9 "In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.

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4- They offered Jesus wine

Matthew 27:34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink ..
based on

Amos 2:11 I also raised up prophets from among your sons and Nazirites from among your young men. Is this not true, people of Israel?' declares the LORD. 12 'But you made the Nazirites drink wine and commanded the prophets not to prophesy.

Proverbs 31:6 Give liquor to a person who is dying and wine to one who feels resentful.

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5- Dividing up his clothes, casting lots

Mark15:24 And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.

based on

Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

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6- Remained silent:

Mark 14:61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 1 Peter 2:23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
based on

Isaiah 53:7
He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.


7- His tomb with the rich ,though no sin neither deceit in his mouth!:

Matthew 27:57 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph(alleged to be the man who donated his own tomb for the burial of Jesus) .. 1 Peter 2:22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

based on
Isaiah 53:9

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

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8- No bone broken:

John 19:33,36 ("...they brake not his legs....A bone of him shall not be broken)
based on
PSALM 34:20 ("He keepeth all his bones; not one of them is broken")

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9- thirsty

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
based on
Psalm. 22 15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

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10- away watching

Mark 15:40
Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
based on

Psalm 38:11
My friends and companions avoid me because of my wounds; my neighbors stay far away.

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11- a friend betrayal


Luke 22:21 But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table.
based on
Psalm 41:9
Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. and , Psalm 55:12If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were raising himself against me, I could hide from him. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend,

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12- Thirty pieces of silver

Matthew 26:15
15 and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.
based on
Zechariah 11:12-13, 30 pieces of silver is the price Zechariah receives for his labour. He takes the coins and throws them "to the potter"

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13 - false evidence ,witnesses ,enemies without cause.


Matthew 26:59
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death.John 15:24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. Matthew 26:60 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
based on

Psalm 35:11
Ruthless witnesses come forward; they question me on things I know nothing about. Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, Psalm 27:12
Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence.

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Clearly the story of the crucifixion of Jesus doesn't require a real event for its inspiration, all of the ideas needed to inspire the story already existed in the scriptures (the old testament) that the writers of the new testament, used as food for their thoughts .