Quran VS Bible , a thoroughly comparative study,arranged by items

Item 2 :

Eden

Bible:

the Earthly eastern garden where the first man, Adam, and his wife, Eve, lived after they were created by God, The Genesis creation narrative relates the geographical location of both Eden and the garden to four rivers (Pishon, Gihon, Tigris, Euphrates), and three regions (Havilah, Assyria, and Kush)...
according to the bible ,after they were expelled from such earthly garden God placed cherubim with an omnidirectional "flaming sword" to guard against any future entrance into the garden.

However, The Talmud associates paradise with the Garden of Eden which considered as the the eternal destination for the righteous .or a heavenly realm where souls reside after physical death until the time of bodily resurrection in the days of the Messiah.
Talmudic would view the righteous: sitting at golden banquet tables (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Taanit 25a) or at stools of gold (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Ketubot 77b), enjoying lavish banquets (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Baba Batra 75a) enjoying sexual intercourse (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Berachot 57b). no envy or hatred or rivalry; but sitting enthroned [Babylonian Talmud, tractate Berachot 17a ]
"Garden on Eden has two gates of ruby, by which stand SIXTY varieties of pure servants. The luster of the face of each of them glistens like the splendor of the firmament. When a righteous man arrives, they remove his clothes in which he had been buried.." (Yalkut Shimoni, Bere**** 20)


Quran:

1- Eden is such heavenly paradise which has gardens

Holy Quran [9:72] GOD promises the believing men and the believing women gardens with flowing streams, wherein they abide forever, and magnificent mansions in the gardens of Eden. And GOD's blessings and approval are even greater. This is the greatest triumph.

2- Was Adam expelled from heavenly paradise or Earthly garden,according to the Quran ?

though the controversy , I think the clues for the first is overwhelming...I wouldn't mention all the clues but just 2 strong ones...


1- the use of the difinitive article (the) before the word Paradise ,denotes it as the heavenly paradise.

2- The Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) said, "Allah will gather people so the believers would stand up when the Paradise will be brought nearer to them. They would come to Adam and say, "O our father! Open for us the Paradise." He would answer, "Wasn't it the sin of your father which got you out of Paradise?" (Sahih Muslim)


according to the narration,The paradise of eternity is the paradise that Adam been expelled from,isn't it?

Till next item

and any comment from muslims or non muslims is welcome
peace

JazakAllah khair for this effort, keep it up please.

I was wondering about this aayah though:

Holy Quran 20:121 In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.

I thought that they were both naked but they were not realizing that till they ate from the tree. I will look more into that inshaAllah

format_quote Originally Posted by Danah

JazakAllah khair for this effort, keep it up please.

I was wondering about this aayah though:


I thought that they were both naked but they were not realizing that till they ate from the tree. I will look more into that inshaAllah

yes thats what it means

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

Nice measured thread but may I ask what is your position on the story of Adam and Eve - do you see it as fact or just as a story? My own view is that we cannot tell and it does not matter as long as we can find out what God is saying to us, what God is teaching us there. I personally have always taken it as just a story and through the story we are to learn something, I don't think any other position is possible but interested to hear what you think or what the orthodox Islamic position is?

I'm sure you know that nothing in islamic belief is fiction, we don't treat any prophetic events as fictional stories from which messages are to be learnt - although they do contain a message to learn from. Why do you not believe in this event? Do you think god has taught us messages through fairytales, why can't you accept it as a true event?

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

I'm sure you know that nothing in islamic belief is fiction, we don't treat any prophetic events as fictional stories from which messages are to be learnt - although they do contain a message to learn from. Why do you not believe in this event? Do you think god has taught us messages through fairytales, why can't you accept it as a true event?

This if I may say so does not really make sense and implies that only stories that are 'true' have any value. So for you a parable has nothing to say, no message? So in the Qu'ran we have the cave narratives are you saying they are true, or the story found elsewhere of Mohammed's heart being removed and washed with snow is an actual event?

Surely, when you read something, anything one cannot automatically take it literally? In fact one of your most famous scholars, Ibn Rushd discussed this very thing. His rule was, to put it simply, "If something when taken literally does not make sense the author must have meant something else". For instance, in the Bible we are told that if our eye causes us to sin we are to tear it out, but no one would ever take that to be a literal recommendation would they? It follows, that every verse in the Qu'ran, like any other writing has to be interpreted. Indeed I would go further and say that to go from the written word to meaning without interpretation is itself a form of heresy

It is NOT necessary that I accept Genesis Chapter 1 as a true event to find meaning in it. The Bible often uses parables for example and no one takes them as factual stories that actually happened, they are designed to teach us something and often that something is very profound. We know from science about evolution so one might rationally argue the Adam and Eve cannot be a factual account but you see the point I am making is that we ask what is God saying to us through this story, that to me is what matters. Well it is saying we have fallen short of God's standards but the story also tells us that God is determined that we shall be redeemed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

This if I may say so does not really make sense and implies that only stories that are 'true' have any value. So for you a parable has nothing to say, no message? So in the Qu'ran we have the cave narratives are you saying they are true, or the story found elsewhere of Mohammed's heart being removed and washed with snow is an actual event?

The cave narratives are true (it has been discussed at length) here with you before.. the prophet's heart being washed out and removed from sin is also true.. I wonder why those two stories don't seem true to you, but god immolating and dying is?

Surely, when you read something, anything one cannot automatically take it literally? In fact one of your most famous scholars, Ibn Rushd discussed this very thing. His rule was, to put it simply, "If something when taken literally does not make sense the author must have meant something else". For instance, in the Bible we are told that if our eye causes us to sin we are to tear it out, but no one would ever take that to be a literal recommendation would they? It follows, that every verse in the Qu'ran, like any other writing has to be interpreted. Indeed I would go further and say that to go from the written word to meaning without interpretation is itself a form of heresy

The things in the Quran that are literal are clearly delineated and those that are allegorical are also clearly delineated, there is an art to it.. Which is well preserved since its very inception by our scholars and not subject to the orientalist rendition!

It is NOT necessary that I accept Genesis Chapter 1 as a true event to find meaning in it. The Bible often uses parables for example and no one takes them as factual stories that actually happened, they are designed to teach us something and often that something is very profound. We know from science about evolution so one might rationally argue the Adam and Eve cannot be a factual account but you see the point I am making is that we ask what is God saying to us through this story, that to me is what matters. Well it is saying we have fallen short of God's standards but the story also tells us that God is determined that we shall be redeemed.

It is rather inconsequential what you accept is allegorical or literal, when you literally believe that your god is a man who self-immolated.. if you have a scientifically sound interpretation for the origins of life then pls. do share it. Keeping in mind that if you desire the atheistic view on the matter in lieu of 'Adam and Eve'- not only will you not be starting with one single celled organism but you'll need to work your way up to a complex, sentient being and make two of it for reproductive purposes (there will be millions of physiological and biochemical processes on the side that you'll need to account for along the way).. By the way, do you ever ponder what you write before you hurl it out thinking that it is credible?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

This if I may say so does not really make sense and implies that only stories that are 'true' have any value. So for you a parable has nothing to say, no message? So in the Qu'ran we have the cave narratives are you saying they are true, or the story found elsewhere of Mohammed's heart being removed and washed with snow is an actual event?

Like I said we don't have any fiction in islam its all true. But this is strange, in christianity who gives you the authority to go round and say what is true and what isn't? For christians the belief that god has a child on earth who somehow dies on cross and could not save himself even though he was god, this beleif does not seem hard for you to accept but the story of adam and eve is?

Surely, when you read something, anything one cannot automatically take it literally? In fact one of your most famous scholars, Ibn Rushd discussed this very thing. His rule was, to put it simply, "If something when taken literally does not make sense the author must have meant something else". For instance, in the Bible we are told that if our eye causes us to sin we are to tear it out, but no one would ever take that to be a literal recommendation would they? It follows, that every verse in the Qu'ran, like any other writing has to be interpreted. Indeed I would go further and say that to go from the written word to meaning without interpretation is itself a form of heresy

Well we don't have crazy beliefs like that in islam thats why nothing is to hard to take literally or accept, it is actually compulsary to take every word in the Quran as the literal word of Allah or else you're not muslim.

It is NOT necessary that I accept Genesis Chapter 1 as a true event to find meaning in it. The Bible often uses parables for example and no one takes them as factual stories that actually happened, they are designed to teach us something and often that something is very profound. We know from science about evolution so one might rationally argue the Adam and Eve cannot be a factual account but you see the point I am making is that we ask what is God saying to us through this story, that to me is what matters. Well it is saying we have fallen short of God's standards but the story also tells us that God is determined that we shall be redeemed.

It seems christians have this habit of picking and choosing whatever seems resonable to them, for you lot as long you accept jesus as a man-god you're christian right?

Something new I learnt about christians today - thanks

Peace
first thank you all for visiting the thread..

second: our friend PouringRain would argue

format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain

In the Bible also Adam and Even felt shame of their nakedness and sewed leaves together after eating of the fruit. So, this is not a point of difference..

brother Adil would agree too

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

yes thats what it means

but allow me to disagree...

unlike the bible,the quran affirms Adam and Eve been covered (at least their genitals) before their sin....

Holy Quran [007:026] O children of Adam, WE have indeed send down to you raiment to cover you nakedness and to be a means of adornment; but the raiment of righteousness - that is the best. That is of the commandments of ALLAH, that they may remember.
[007:027] O children of Adam, let not Satan seduce you, as he expelled your parents out of paradise, by stripping them of their cloathing, that he might shew them their nakedness.

third: our friend Hugo :you have addressed many interesting points,but I'm afraid having two sided conversation about them would get us much offtopic.....
but I promise you the issue of allegorical Vs literal is coming soon in next items.....
indeed it is serious,profound ..and I hope to get you read what may interest you....

fourth: plz dear brothers,sisters ..be stuck to the topics under discussion,thanx....

not really^

read the pickthall translation of it:

Pickthall
O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

not really^

read the pickthall translation of it:

Pickthall
O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

well, we have two factors to avoid the allegorical translation of pickthall

1- the context which mentions clearly the literal clothing

Holy Quran [007:026] O children of Adam, WE have indeed send down to you raiment to cover you nakedness ...

Tafsir Ibn kathir

Allah reminds His servants that He has given them Libas and Rish. Libas refers to the clothes that are used to cover the private parts, while Rish refers to the outer adornments used for purposes of beautification. Therefore, the first type is essential while the second type is complimentary.
Allah warns the Children of Adam against Iblis and his followers, by explaining about his ancient enmity for the father of mankind, Adam peace be upon him. Iblis plotted to have Adam expelled from Paradise, which is the dwelling of comfort, to the dwelling of hardship and fatigue (this life) and caused him to have his private part uncovered, after it had been hidden .

2- If the clothing was metaphorical eg,( robe of innocence) ,then the leaves of Paradise they covered themselves with were metaphorical too ,and we gonna play the dangerous game of metaphor ,the tree was a metaphor,Adam and eve were a metaphor ,may be God himself was a metaphor too !!!...

Advice

"A good rule for interpretation is: 'If the literal sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you come up with nonsense'."

peace and bless

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

This is just nonsense and you are muddling up what you might believe with what can be scientifically verified. For example, can you even prove that there is a God at all? I can accept the Biblical story of Jesus as fact because we have eye witness accounts to his death and resurrection. As to whether it all means anything that is a matter of personal faith - do you see the difference?

lol-- Show me a historical source outside your (bible which has absolutely no textual integrity whatsoever and we have so proven repeatedly) that attests that a man named Jesus lived at all let alone died and was god aside from Josephus' writing and I quote: The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed although most modern scholars agree that it is partially authentic!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

The point here is that YOU think there are no crazy beliefs in Islam but to me a heart being removed and washed in snow is fairy tale. It is an absurdity to accept everything as literal and your own scholars don't do that. For example, the Qu'ran say in heaven believers will rest on sofas - do you really take that literally, that there are several billions of sofas in heaven?

Islamic faith doesn't rest on whether or not the prophet's heart was cleansed from sin.. your faith on the other hands seems to rest on the moment your god of whom there is no otherwise a historical record immolated and perished from existence for an x number of days-- in fact whether the prophet's heart was cleansed or not is utterly inconsequential to the entire Islamic faith.. can you honestly say the same would be true if it were proven to you by mere logic that you can't be both god, his son and his hovering spirit, be one in the same.. and if it does then the world has no need for such a god for in his period of suckling, meekness and death the universe survived just fine!

This really is the pot calling the kettle black. YOU here tell me you take everything literally and then complain because I use reason? You are just conditioned to thing Islam perfect everything else bad so your rational powers are suspended when its anything to do with Islam.

There is no object of comparison what so ever here, are you that delusional?

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

This is just nonsense and you are muddling up what you might believe with what can be scientifically verified. For example, can you even prove that there is a God at all? I can accept the Biblical story of Jesus as fact because we have eye witness accounts to his death and resurrection. As to whether it all means anything that is a matter of personal faith - do you see the difference?

scientifically verified? is our faith in our beliefs based on scientific verification, example: in the case of prophet moses have scientists verified that a sea can be split in to two parts?

The point here is that YOU think there are no crazy beliefs in Islam but to me a heart being removed and washed in snow is fairy tale. It is an absurdity to accept everything as literal and your own scholars don't do that. For example, the Qu'ran say in heaven believers will rest on sofas - do you really take that literally, that there are several billions of sofas in heaven?

its no where near as absurd as a god dying on a cross and being unable to save himself, is there not several billions sofas in the world right now? Do'H

This really is the pot calling the kettle black. YOU here tell me you take everything literally and then complain because I use reason? You are just conditioned to thing Islam perfect everything else bad so your rational powers are suspended when its anything to do with Islam. You use reason right? but does it make sense to you that many among your fellow christians have vastly different views? does it make sense that a faith can have such varied fundamental beliefs which are open to interpretation?

You guys have no general consensus over what fundamental beliefs are to be accepted in order to be a christian, whereas in islam its simple - you accept everything as none of it is too hard to believe

yes I do believe islam is perfect, we do not need to struggle with 'rational powers', we don't struggle to come to terms with certain beliefs, as everything is quite clear

format_quote Originally Posted by Hugo

How do you know they are true, what evidence do you have for either of these two cases? Just to be clear here are you saying that it is true the prophets beating heart was LITERALLY removed and washed with snow though why that would purge him of sin is a mystery to me?

There is nothing about either stories that stands out as odd and the point of either stories isn't about the number of years (although in an of itself is a few other miracles) nor whether the messengers heart was cleansed or not. That isn't the fulcrum on which Islam rests!
Have you read suret al-kahf? it is odd to me because I have written on it extensively.. Do you want to spend your time learning or spend your time throwing the same repeated tantrum on each subsequent post?

Suret Al- Kahf in a nutshell is about trials of faith, trials of wealth, trials of knowledge and trials of power and its relations to the four trials appearing at the time of the anti-christ!
and knowing how to guard oneself against these trials with six also mentioned in the surah from verses 28,45,69,110, and 27.. in fact in the sura itself you should have come across--

[Pickthal 18:22] (Some) will say: They were three, their dog the fourth, and (some) say: Five, their dog the sixth, guessing at random; and (some) say: Seven, and their dog the eighth. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord is Best Aware of their number. None knoweth them save a few. So contend not concerning them except with an outward contending, and ask not any of them to pronounce concerning them.


How does that compare to mangod beseeching himself the night before he immolated for something as anticlimactic as eating your sins so you are free to live a debauched so long as your god died for you?

Can you explain how they are delineated, and its either an art or it is clear - I quoted Ibn Rushd and it seems he had difficulty, so what is the method?

Join Al-Azhar or equally credible university and they'll let you in on deciphering the mystery.. It is really not that difficult but quality research isn't cheap anymore than acquiring any credible degree- If you'd like to study under the tutelage of a Muslim scholar then that too can be arranged!

When was 'my God' immolated? However, you are missing the point, what one might believe is one thing what is scientifically verifiable fact is quite an another.

Your god immolated before he died.. are you not familiar with the christian mythology that you adhere to as a religion? You can't verify headaches scientifically either, but 45 million Americans suffer chronic headaches annually.. I guess it depends on the criteria, data provided and credibility of parties involved!

all the best

Its called evolution with plenty of evidence to support it. Do you have a different view?

Go ahead share your understanding of evolution(speciation) using the scientifically proposed methods I'll be waiting!

My view is a scientific one, what is yours?

Your view is no more scientific on the origin of life and species than it is about the self-immolating triple headed God.. outside of the apparently undeserved bravado which is your smoke and mirror, you always come up so empty, all I have to do is a light blow to your face for you and all your silly arguments to fall apart!