I realize there are very few adherents of JW beliefs present as members and any answers would most likely be the personal opinions of just a few people. Most of us here have very little knowledge of JWs and do not understand how they differ from other groups that call themselves Christian. I do realize that JWs do differ very much from the other denominations to such a large degree that many who call themselves Christian do not consider JWs to be Christians.
Since hell is eternal then those who enter into hell have lost both themselves and souls
My original point was that the Qur'an nowhere says that the soul is immortal. Rather it teaches, as the Bible does, that there will be a resurrection of the dead. The dead only enter the hell of the Qur'an after the resurrection. And I cannot see any passage in the Qur'an that says that the dead are conscious until the resurrection.
Now Woodrow is using Surah 23:103 to prove that we have immortal souls. But all it says is that these ones in hell are lost.
Now Woodrow is using Surah 23:103 to prove that we have immortal souls. But all it says is that these ones in hell are lost.
Yes and I agree with his conclusion that this ayah serves as evidence, since the soul/self is truly lost when one goes to hell, since that will be for eternity.
Besides, I have seen you in the past using the ahadith as evidence, what happened now?. There is more detail about this issue in ahadith, and several ahadith confirm that the soul is eternal till judgement day.
this is so confusing ...Sub`haan Allah...hell means grave and soul means body...
would you please explain for me, why to call the grave (hell)?
yes, but I really wanted you to tell me what was his message ...
Do you believe that God come to earth in a human form?(Astagfero Allah Al Atheem )...
From what did God create Adam? was Adam in Paradise?and how did Adam come to earth?(peace be upon him)
Why do Christians call themselves Christians? and do you consider yourself a Christian?
Thank you my brother for your patience and kindness...
The original English meaning of "hell" is a verb meaning "to cover". It thus suggests a hidden or covered place and corresponds well to the Greek word "hades" which is believed to mean "unseen place". In the KJV, "hades" is translated ten times as "hell" and once as "grave" at 1 Corinthians 15:55.
Abraham was a prophet and through him God made many things known. What do you want me to mention?
No, God did not come to the earth in human form.
1 Corinthians 15:47 says that Adam "is out of the earth and made of dust". The Greek Septuagint at Genesis 2:8 calls Adam's home a "paradise" in Eden. From that place flowed four rivers including the Tigris and the Euphrates (Genesis 2:14). These are known rivers on earth so obviously the paradise was on earth not in heaven. After they sinned Adam and Eve were driven out of paradise but remained on earth where they had been created.
And the Bible itself calls the followers of Jesus "Christians" at Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16.
Yes and I agree with his conclusion that this ayah serves as evidence, since the soul/self is truly lost when one goes to hell, since that will be for eternity.
Besides, I have seen you in the past using the ahadith as evidence, what happened now?. There is more detail about this issue in ahadith, and several ahadith confirm that the soul is eternal till judgement day.
All I wanted to check was that the Qur'an definitely does not speak of consciousness after death (until the resurrection). But by contrast, as you point out, the ahadith does. I have read accounts in them of the dead in their graves awaiting resurrection and suffering if they are wicked but existing in comfort if they are righteous.
As stated perhaps you can show me where I have said something at odds with Sr. Insaanah without adding your own spin to either meaning!
I expect a quote from my person, juxtaposed on one of hers with you pointing out the disparate and gross errors!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
My original point was that the Qur'an nowhere says that the soul is immortal. Rather it teaches, as the Bible does, that there will be a resurrection of the dead.
I'll not ask for your interpretation of the Qur'an but of the Bible. Is it your understanding that the Bible teaches a resurrection of the dead, but that it does NOT teach that the soul is immortal?
All I wanted to check was that the Qur'an definitely does not speak of consciousness after death (until the resurrection). But by contrast, as you point out, the ahadith does. I have read accounts in them of the dead in their graves awaiting resurrection and suffering if they are wicked but existing in comfort if they are righteous.
All I wanted to check was that the Qur'an definitely does not speak of consciousness after death (until the resurrection).
It does.
"And call not those who are slain in the way of Allah "dead." Nay, they are living, only ye perceive not." (2:154)
"Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living. With their Lord they have provision.
Jubilant (are they) because of that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not joined them but are left behind: That there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
They rejoice because of favour from Allah and kindness, and that Allah wasteth not the wage of the believers." (3:169-171)
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
the ahadith does. I have read accounts in them of the dead in their graves awaiting resurrection and suffering if they are wicked but existing in comfort if they are righteous.
Yes. See above also.
Peace.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
The original English meaning of "hell" is a verb meaning "to cover". It thus suggests a hidden or covered place and corresponds well to the Greek word "hades" which is believed to mean "unseen place". In the KJV, "hades" is translated ten times as "hell" and once as "grave" at 1 Corinthians 15:55..
in a Christian source I read this:
HELL In common usage, this term refers to the place of future punishment for the wicked. The word properly translated “hell” in the New Testament is the Greek Geenna or Gehenna, a place in the Valley of Hinnom where human sacrifices had been offered and where continuous burning of rubbish made it an apt illustration of the eternal lake of fire (cf. Matt. 5:22). Other words like sheol or hades are improperly translated by this term.
SHEOL The general idea of this word is “the place of the dead” including the grave (cf. Num. 16:30,33; Ps. 16:10), and the unseen place of those who have departed from this life, the place of departed spirits of both the righteous (Gen. 37:35) and the wicked (Prov. 9:18).
HADES This word is basically the New Testament counterpart of the Sheol. It refers to the unseen world in general, but specifically to the abode of the unsaved dead between death and the final judgment at the great white throne (cf. Lk. 16:23 and Rev. 20:11-15).It differs from hell in that it is temporary while hell is permanent.
Abraham was a prophet and through him God made many things known. What do you want me to mention?
His message which Allah sent him with ..the pure purpose of sending Messengers and Prophets (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them) this is what I wanted you to mention, my respected brother...it is really simple Q and I don`t know how to explain it for you more than that...with all my respect,I am really sorry...
1 Corinthians 15:47 says that Adam "is out of the earth and made of dust". The Greek Septuagint at Genesis 2:8 calls Adam's home a "paradise" in Eden. From that place flowed four rivers including the Tigris and the Euphrates (Genesis 2:14). These are known rivers on earth so obviously the paradise was on earth not in heaven. After they sinned Adam and Eve were driven out of paradise but remained on earth where they had been created.
ok, you said before :
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Jesus is called "the firstborn of all creation" in Colossians 1:15. So he is the first created being. He existed in heaven with God before coming to earth by being born through Mary. The Bible repeatedly calls Jesus (and some others) "Son of God".
As I understood from your words; Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is not from the sons of Adam, right?
At what age Jesus was; when he was with God in heavens? do you know? was he a baby or an adult? was he in a human form ?
Why to say Jesus is the son of God while you said that Allah created him (is he a creature of God or His son?)...are we the sons and daughters of God since He created us? and are all the creatures of God His sons and daughters? and if Jesus is the son of God then why not worshipping him with God? ...Praise Be To Allah and High Be He ,Exalted and Raised far above...
and another Q that I really want to know its answer; according to the Christianity and the bible ;are all the Muslims (who died not believing that Jesus is the son of God) going to hell (or let me say Jahannam to not confuse you ;as you believe that hell means grave) ?
and another Q that I really want to know its answer; according to the Christianity and the bible ;are all the Muslims (who died not believing that Jesus is the son of God) going to hell (or let me say Jahannam to not confuse you ;as you believe that hell means grave) ?
Just a reminder, that while Hiroshi identifies himself as a Christian, he also denies that pretty much all the rest of us who you know as Christians or who have identified themselves as Christian throughout history (including most likely the others of that Christian book you quoted) are genuinely Christian. So, when he gives you his answer to this question, remember that his answer may be different from that which is going to be given from someone who comes from one of the historically Christian faith communities that Hiroshi would not recognize as Christian.
I'll not ask for your interpretation of the Qur'an but of the Bible. Is it your understanding that the Bible teaches a resurrection of the dead, but that it does NOT teach that the soul is immortal?
Yes. In fact, immortality is given to God's servants as a reward. This proves that they do not have immortality already.
1 Corinthians 15:53-54 shows righteous ones receiving immortality at their resurrection as a reward: "For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory.""
And Romans 6:9 shows that Jesus was rewarded with immortality also at his resurrection: "For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him."
Also 1 Timothy 6:16 speaks of Jesus "who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen."
And Hebrews 7:16 says that Jesus now has an indestructible life: "one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life."
HELL In common usage, this term refers to the place of future punishment for the wicked. The word properly translated “hell” in the New Testament is the Greek Geenna or Gehenna, a place in the Valley of Hinnom where human sacrifices had been offered and where continuous burning of rubbish made it an apt illustration of the eternal lake of fire (cf. Matt. 5:22). Other words like sheol or hades are improperly translated by this term.
There is much to say and explain on this subject.
But I strongly disagree that sheol and hades are improperly translated by this term. By far most of the translations that I have checked translate "hades" as "hell" at least at Luke 16:23.
"The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic*halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something". The word has cognates in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisianhelle, hille, Old Saxonhellja, Middle Dutchhelle (modern Dutch hel), Old High Germanhelle (Modern German Hölle), Danish, Norwegian and Swedish "helvede"/helvete (hel + Old Norsevitti, "punishment"), and Gothichalja. Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary".
The idea of a place of torment for the wicked after death is a pagan concept but has become a strong belief in many churches. Obviously those who would promote this idea of a place of torment, object to using the term "hell" where the context simply means "the grave".
Hiroshi, I am afraid you missed my previous questions, so here's I am posting them again:
Hiroshi, I have questions about JW:
1. your prophet charles taze russel predicted that Armageddon would occur in October 1914. What happened to the prediction?
2. He also predicted that the jesus 1,000 years reign would start in 1925. What happened to this also?
3. also what happened to the other many predictions by watchtower that did not materialize a single one??
I apologize for not responding the first time. I get lots of questions and sometimes I miss one or two. I am glad that you draw this to my attention and I hope others will likewise repeat their posts where I haven't responded due to an oversight.
These questions may have come from an anti-Jehovah's Witness website of which there are a great many.
Based on Bible prophecy, we predicted since the 1870s that God's kingdom would begin ruling in 1914. Since that time many visible signs having to do with the coming of God's kingdom have been seen. For example, Luke 21:10-11 and Like 21:31 foretold that there would be a great worldwide increase in wars, famine, earthquakes and diseases and this has taken place. This gives evidence that the calculation of the date of 1914 was correct.
However, it was also expected that these troubles that were predicted would escalate into Armageddon and that did not happen immediately. JWs do not claim to be infallible. They have made mistakes in the past, particularly in the early days, and have had to correct their thinking accordingly.
One notable prediction announced by Nathan Knorr, a one time president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, was that the League of Nations would return after it vanished into oblivion with the outbreak of World War 2 (based on Revelation 17:8). The prediction came true. That organisation returned under the new name of the United Nations.
Yes. In fact, immortality is given to God's servants as a reward. This proves that they do not have immortality already.
Now, pardon me, but I'm going to put words in your mouth for you to affirm or spit out as not representing you.
So, you would say that we are all born with a soul (not as souls, but with souls), but that soul is NOT immortal. Then we die and the soul dies. Then we are resurrected, but not with the same body but a different body, yet it is still us. And then that body is given a soul which is immortal as a reward.
If that's right, I've got half a dozen question for you, but let's make sure I've got what you believe right first, before I question it.
For the purpose of pointing something out. Let us assume that Humans do not have an immortal soul. Now based on that assumption at death we are totally obliterated, but at the resurrection the righteous are recreated in an immortal form. Now I agree that God(swt) can do anything so for sake of argument let us assume that is correct.
Now the peroblem I see with that is how are they both the same person as you are stating they are 2 separate creations and not even identical except in terms of memory. They are 2 separate beings, existing at 2 different times. By definition they are not the same being. You are alleging that 2 separate creations are the same creation. While God(swt) can do anything, there are statements and thoughts we humans make/have that are utter nonsense and actually have nothing to do with the abilities of God(swt). This seems to be such a statement. In no way would they be the same as there is no continuity. This makes as much sense as saying God(swt) can draw a triangle, erase it and redraw it as a circle and have it be the same triangle that was erased. Nonsensical statements are not an indication of the limitless power of God(swt). It is not that God(swt) can not do something, it is a simple fact we humans can think of non-things and ascribe them as being something that God(swt) can/can't do. That is in the same realm as saying God(swt) can create another God(swt) who would be the only God(swt) eternal with no begining having always been, always will be and was not created nor born. It is utter nonsense to even contemplate the thought.
Now, pardon me, but I'm going to put words in your mouth for you to affirm or spit out as not representing you.
So, you would say that we are all born with a soul (not as souls, but with souls), but that soul is NOT immortal. Then we die and the soul dies. Then we are resurrected, but not with the same body but a different body, yet it is still us. And then that body is given a soul which is immortal as a reward.
If that's right, I've got half a dozen question for you, but let's make sure I've got what you believe right first, before I question it.
Genesis 2:7 says: "God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45 says: "The first man Adam was made a living soul".
These verses do not say that man was given a soul. They say that he "became" or "was made" a soul. Man doesn't receive a soul. He is a soul.
Having said that though, the term "soul" can be used in a way where it means the life of the person. For example Genesis 35:18 KJV reads: "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) ..." But the New International Version reads: "As she breathed her last—for she was dying ..." The "departing" of the soul here might be misunderstood to mean that the soul leaves the body and continues conscious existence in a spirit realm. But that isn't what this expression means (notice carefully the NIV rendering). It is simply a way of saying that Rachel lost her life.
Genesis 2:7 says: "God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
And 1 Corinthians 15:45 says: "The first man Adam was made a living soul".
These verses do not say that man was given a soul. They say that he "became" or "was made" a soul. Man doesn't receive a soul. He is a soul.
Having said that though, the term "soul" can be used in a way where it means the life of the person. For example Genesis 35:18 KJV reads: "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) ..." But the New International Version reads: "As she breathed her last—for she was dying ..." The "departing" of the soul here might be misunderstood to mean that the soul leaves the body and continues conscious existence in a spirit realm. But that isn't what this expression means (notice carefully the NIV rendering). It is simply a way of saying that Rachel lost her life.
Fine, but you didn't really answer my question. (Or, maybe in your mind it does, but I don't yet understand how it does.)
I didn't say that you said we are all given a soul. I want to know if we are all born with a soul? Or are we all born as souls? And can you explain the difference between those two statements? Thanks.
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