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Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

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    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

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    On my search thru Truth, I have misunderstanding of this passage.


    That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- [4:157]


    Does one take this as a literal passage or metaphorically? And if, one is supposed to take it literal, what is said for the evidence below?








    Non-Biblical Pagan Accounts

    1. Thallus (52AD)
    Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion:
    "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)



    2. Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)

    Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
    "They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."




    3. Suetonius (69-140AD)

    Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
    "Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome)." (Life of Claudius, 25:4)
    This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
    "Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief." (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)




    4. Tacitus (56-120AD)
    Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:
    "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."




    5. Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)

    Sometime
    after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
    "What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted."




    6. Phlegon (80-140AD)

    In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
    "Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour." (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
    Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

    “Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

    “And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place ... ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

    “Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)







    7. Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
    Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:
    "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)




    8. Celsus (175AD)
    This is the last hostile ‘pagan’ account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite hostile to the Gospels, but in his criticism, he unknowingly affirms and reinforces the authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century! Here is a portion of his text:
    “Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a *******. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”


    Non-Biblical Jewish Accounts


    1. Josephus (37-101AD)
    In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at age thirteen, was a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ, and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. Now there is much controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians, who are accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, let’s take a look at a scholarly reconstruction that has removed all the possible Christian influence from the text related to Jesus:
    “Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed in the latest treatment by John Meier, Marginal Jew 1:61)




    2. Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
    While the earliest Talmudic writings of Jewish Rabbis appear in the 5th century, the tradition of these Rabbinic authors indicates that they are faithfully transmitting teachings from the early “Tannaitic” period of the first century BC to the second century AD. There are a number of writings from the Talmud that scholars believe refer to Jesus and many of these writings are said to use code words to describe Jesus (such as “Balaam” or “Ben Stada” or “a certain one”). But let’s be very conservative here. Let’s ONLY look at the passages that refer to Jesus in a more direct way. If we do that, there are still several ancient Talmudic passages we can examine:
    “Jesus practiced magic and led Israel astray” (b. Sanhedrin 43a; cf. t. Shabbat 11.15; b. Shabbat 104b)

    “Rabbi Hisda (d. 309) said that Rabbi Jeremiah bar Abba said, ‘What is that which is written, ‘No evil will befall you, nor shall any plague come near your house’? (Psalm 91:10)… ‘No evil will befall you’ (means) that evil dreams and evil thoughts will not tempt you; ‘nor shall any plague come near your house’ (means) that you will not have a son or a disciple who burns his food like Jesus of Nazareth.” (b. Sanhedrin 103a; cf. b. Berakhot 17b)


    “Our rabbis have taught that Jesus had five disciples: Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah. They brought Matthai to (to trial). He said, ‘Must Matthai be killed? For it is written, ‘When (mathai) shall I come and appear before God?’” (Psalm 92:2) They said to him, “Yes Matthai must be killed, for it is written, ‘When (mathai) he dies his name will perish’” (Psalm 41:5). They brought Nakai. He said to them, “Must Nakai be killed? For it is written, “The innocent (naqi) and the righteous will not slay’” (Exodus 23:7). They said to him, “Yes, Nakai must be kille, for it is written, ‘In secret places he slays the innocent (naqi)’” (Psalm 10:8). (b. Sanhedrin 43a; the passage continues in a similar way for Nezer, Buni and Todah)
    And this, perhaps the most famous of Talmudic passages about Jesus:
    “It was taught: On the day before the Passover they hanged Jesus. A herald went before him for forty days (proclaiming), “He will be stoned, because he practiced magic and enticed Israel to go astray. Let anyone who knows anything in his favor come forward and plead for him.” But nothing was found in his favor, and they hanged him on the day before the Passover. (b. Sanhedrin 43a)





    3. The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)
    The Toledot Yeshu is a medieval Jewish retelling of the life of Jesus. It is completely anti-Christian, to be sure. There are many versions of these ‘retellings’, and as part of the transmitted oral and written tradition of the Jews, we can presume their original place in antiquity, dating back to the time of Jesus’ first appearance as an influential leader who was drawing Jews away from their faith in the Law. The Toledot Yeshu contains a determined effort to explain away the miracles of Jesus, and to deny the virgin birth. In some places, the text is quite vicious, but it does confirm many elements of the New Testament writings. Let’s take a look at a portion of the text (Jesus is refered to as ‘Yehoshua’):
    “In the year 3671 (in Jewish reckonging, it being ca 90 B.C.) in the days of King Jannaeus, a great misfortune befell Israel, when there arose a certain disreputable man of the tribe of Judah, whose name was Joseph Pandera. He lived at Bethlehem, in Judah. Near his house dwelt a widow and her lovely and chaste daughter named Miriam. Miriam was betrothed to Yohanan, of the royal house of David, a man learned in the Torah and God-fearing. At the close of a certain Sabbath, Joseph Pandera, attractive and like a warrior in appearance, having gazed lustfully upon Miriam, knocked upon the door of her room and betrayed her by pretending that he was her betrothed husband, Yohanan. Even so, she was amazed at this improper conduct and submitted only against her will. Thereafter, when Yohanan came to her, Miriam expressed astonishment at behavior so foreign to his character. It was thus that they both came to know the crime of Joseph Pandera and the terrible mistake on the part of Miriam… Miriam gave birth to a son and named him Yehoshua, after her brother. This name later deteriorated to Yeshu ("Yeshu" is the Jewish "name" for Jesus. It means "May His Name Be Blotted Out"). On the eighth day he was circumcised. When he was old enough the lad was taken by Miriam to the house of study to be instructed in the Jewish tradition. One day Yeshu walked in front of the Sages with his head uncovered, showing shameful disrespect. At this, the discussion arose as to whether this behavior did not truly indicate that Yeshu was an illegitimate child and the son of a niddah. Moreover, the story tells that while the rabbis were discussing the Tractate Nezikin, he gave his own impudent interpretation of the law and in an ensuing debate he held that Moses could not be the greatest of the prophets if he had to receive counsel from Jethro. This led to further inquiry as to the antecedents of Yeshu, and it was discovered through Rabban Shimeon ben Shetah that he was the illegitimate son of Joseph Pandera. Miriam admitted it. After this became known, it was necessary for Yeshu to flee to Upper Galilee. After King Jannaeus, his wife Helene ruled over all Israel. In the Temple was to be found the Foundation Stone on which were engraven the letters of God's Ineffable Name. Whoever learned the secret of the Name and its use would be able to do whatever he wished. Therefore, the Sages took measures so that no one should gain this knowledge. Lions of brass were bound to two iron pillars at the gate of the place of burnt offerings. Should anyone enter and learn the Name, when he left the lions would roar at him and immediately the valuable secret would be forgotten. Yeshu came and learned the letters of the Name; he wrote them upon the parchment which he placed in an open cut on his thigh and then drew the flesh over the parchment. As he left, the lions roared and he forgot the secret. But when he came to his house he reopened the cut in his flesh with a knife an lifted out the writing. Then he remembered and obtained the use of the letters. He gathered about himself three hundred and ten young men of Israel and accused those who spoke ill of his birth of being people who desired greatness and power for themselves. Yeshu proclaimed, "I am the Messiah; and concerning me Isaiah prophesied and said, 'Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.'" He quoted other messianic texts, insisting, "David my ancestor prophesied concerning me: 'The Lord said to me, thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.'" The insurgents with him replied that if Yeshu was the Messiah he should give them a convincing sign. They therefore, brought to him a lame man, who had never walked. Yeshu spoke over the man the letters of the Ineffable Name, and the leper was healed. Thereupon, they worshipped him as the Messiah, Son of the Highest. When word of these happenings came to Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin decided to bring about the capture of Yeshu. They sent messengers, Annanui and Ahaziah, who, pretending to be his disciples, said that they brought him an invitation from the leaders of Jerusalem to visit them. Yeshu consented on condition the members of the Sanhedrin receive him as a lord. He started out toward Jerusalem and, arriving at Knob, acquired an ass on which he rode into Jerusalem, as a fulfillment of the prophecy of Zechariah. The Sages bound him and led him before Queen Helene, with the accusation: "This man is a sorcerer and entices everyone." Yeshu replied, "The prophets long ago prophesied my coming: 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse,' and I am he; but as for them, Scripture says 'Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.'" Queen Helene asked the Sages: "What he says, is it in your Torah?" They replied: "It is in our Torah, but it is not applicable to him, for it is in Scripture: 'And that prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.' He has not fulfilled the signs and conditions of the Messiah." Yeshu spoke up: "Madam, I am the Messiah and I revive the dead." A dead body was brought in; he pronounced the letters of the Ineffable Name and the corpse came to life. The Queen was greatly moved and said: "This is a true sign." She reprimanded the Sages and sent them humiliated from her presence. Yeshu's dissident followers increased and there was controversy in Israel. Yeshu went to Upper Galilee. the Sages came before the Queen, complaining that Yeshu practiced sorcery and was leading everyone astray. Therefore she sent Annanui and Ahaziah to fetch him. The found him in Upper Galilee, proclaiming himself the Son of God. When they tried to take him there was a struggle, but Yeshu said to the men of Upper Galilee: "Wage no battle." He would prove himself by the power which came to him from his Father in heaven. He spoke the Ineffable Name over the birds of clay and they flew into the air. He spoke the same letters over a millstone that had been placed upon the waters. He sat in it and it floated like a boat. When they saw this the people marveled. At the behest of Yeshu, the emissaries departed and reported these wonders to the Queen. She trembled with astonishment. Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Ineffable Name as Yeshu had done. When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: "It is spoken of me, 'I will ascend into heaven.'" He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone…Yeshu was seized. His head was covered with a garment and he was smitten with pomegranate staves; but he could do nothing, for he no longer had the Ineffable Name. Yeshu was taken prisoner to the synagogue of Tiberias, and they bound him to a pillar. To allay his thirst they gave him vinegar to drink. On his head they set a crown of thorns. There was strife and wrangling between the elders and the unrestrained followers of Yeshu, as a result of which the followers escaped with Yeshu to the region of Antioch; there Yeshu remained until the eve of the Passover. Yeshu then resolved to go the Temple to acquire again the secret of the Name. That year the Passover came on a Sabbath day. On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu, accompanied by his disciples, came to Jerusalem riding upon an ass. Many bowed down before him. He entered the Temple with his three hundred and ten followers. One of them, Judah Iskarioto apprised the Sages that Yeshu was to be found in the Temple, that the disciples had taken a vow by the Ten Commandments not to reveal his identity but that he would point him out by bowing to him. So it was done and Yeshu was seized. Asked his name, he replied to the question by several times giving the names Mattai, Nakki, Buni, Netzer, each time with a verse quoted by him and a counter-verse by the Sages. Yeshu was put to death on the sixth hour on the eve of the Passover and of the Sabbath. When they tried to hang him on a tree it broke, for when he had possessed the power he had pronounced by the Ineffable Name that no tree should hold him. He had failed to pronounce the prohibition over the carob-stalk, for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree." They buried him outside the city. On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden. Queen Helene demanded, on threat of a severe penalty, that the body of Yeshu be shown to her within a period of three days. There was a great distress. When the keeper of the garden saw Rabbi Tanhuma walking in the field and lamenting over the ultimatum of the Queen, the gardener related what he had done, in order that Yeshu's followers should not steal the body and then claim that he had ascended into heaven. The Sages removed the body, tied it to the tail of a horse and transported it to the Queen, with the words, "This is Yeshu who is said to have ascended to heaven." Realizing that Yeshu was a false prophet who enticed the people and led them astray, she mocked the followers but praised the Sages.






    In Summary
    Jesus from purely NON-BIBLICAL ancient sources:
    Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that by repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what he said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns and crucified on the eve of the Passover. His crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of his crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, he was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to his disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them his wounds. These disciples then told others that Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus' disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after his death.








    I love Islam, but evidence speaks for itself.. and I'm torn, and am just looking for insight, this thread is not meant to ignite a war.

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    I have heard an interpretation that 4:157 was merely saying that those particular people were not the ones who crucified him, and not that he wasn't crucified at all. I have no comment to make on the issue (I don't even know Arabic), but if you do assume that the passage was saying that he wasn't crucified by anyone then it doesn't really matter how many external sources say that they saw it happening or know of it supposedly happening, because the passage itself fully admits to it being what the people saw.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    ..those particular people were not the ones who crucified him..
    Meaning the Jews? But even the non-Biblical Jewish accounts confirm this. So it's really no different..


    Personally do you just not take this passage for anything?

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    format_quote Originally Posted by B_M View Post
    Meaning the Jews? But even the non-Biblical Jewish accounts confirm this. So it's really no different.. Personally do you just not take this passage for anything?

    Someone was indeed crucified (It wasn't Jesus) a prophet of God wouldn't spend the night in prayer in Gethsemane and be forsaken by God the next day.. It is unfortunate that in christian mythology, not only was the man turned into a god, but this alleged god forgo his own self beseeching for something as anti-climatic as eating sins.. this god couldn't ward off two oafs but you expect him to resurrect all of humanity? .. It makes no logical sense.. either way. Jewish accounts do certify a crucifixion but they also have this to say:

    In fact, it is generally anti-Christ in tone. It says that Messiah is Yeshu, the son of Joseph, but it contradicts itself in Sanhedrin 43a were it says that Jesus (Yeshu) the Nazarene was executed because he practiced sorcery. Sanhedrin 106a says Jesus' mother was a *****: “She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters.”
    so how much are you invested in their truth? or just the parts of interest?

    all the best
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    a 12 part lecture between an evangelist and Dr. Ahmad Deedat on the alleged crucifixion ..
    fact or fiction?
    if you have the time and actually invested in facts!

    http://www.yidio.com/crucifixion-fac...28864052010084

    all the best
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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    making it easier as I think this is quite informative for Muslims:






















    Brilliant wallhi.. Allah yer7mao .. every time I hear a lecture by him I am taken aback by his mannerism, his knowledge.. Masha'Allah.. may Allah swt bless us all with such profound knowledge and faith!

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Not trying to sound rude when I say this but.. I don't really know how to respond because I don't understand what you're trying to say?

    How wasn't it Jesus? These accounts provide the evidence that a man named Jesus (whether they believed in the miracles of the man or thought he was just some magician) was crucified.

    Maybe I'm just stupid but I don't understand the quote either. Quote says a man named Jesus, who people believed was the Messiah, was the 'son' of a man named Joesph, who practiced sorcery (obviously others believed he performed miracles not magic), and the author calls his mother a ***** because the author clearly doesn't believe in the BS story of a 'virgin birth'. Implying it wasn't Joesph's biological child.. So yes I'm invested in what the author is saying, because it coincides with the Gospels.



    Are you saying the Jesus depicted in these accounts is not the same Jesus the Quran speaks of? That doesn't make sense. How could you say that with the accounts provided?

    Unless of course you take 4:157 metaphorically, which than would go along with the Bible. Because in a sense he 'didn't really die'. He was resurrected.

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Have you watched the videos above? I know you couldn't possibly have since that will take you well over two hours. a historical and biblical account is well covered by both deedat and douglas. Once you have covered those, come and argue content!

    I don't think you are rude, I just think you are confused, and what I am trying to say will take over two hours, so make that investment is you are interested in a fruitful dialogue. As I personally don't like wasting my time on opinion or drivel!

    in fact you won't even have to go past the first videos to get alot of that clarified for you, considering the disciples all forsook Jesus and most of what they uttered were heresy as evinced by the bible, and Jesus coming back to the disciples allowing him to touch him in the flesh and asking for food for which he was given both a fish and a honeycomb. We can all agree that the dead or the spirit will not request such human things!

    all the best
    Last edited by جوري; 10-17-2010 at 04:13 AM.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?


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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    salaam

    someone died on the cross - but it wasnt the messiah Jesus pbuh - he cant be killed.

    By the way you give Jewish and Roman sources - Both wanted Jesus pbuh out the way because he was a threat to them. His teachings were critical of the Rabbis and he also claimed to be the messiah which was political threat to Rome. Making sure people remember that he "died" in a horrific manner should have rid them of the "problem" but ofcourse that didnt happen.

    peace
    Last edited by Zafran; 10-17-2010 at 04:45 AM.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    The tafsir of Ibn Khatir and Ibn Abbas states someone had volunteered to take Jesus' place and the likeness was put on him

    Ibn khatir's Tafsir

    ews went to the king of Damascus at that time, a Greek polytheist who worshipped the stars. They told him that there was a man in Bayt Al-Maqdis misguiding and dividing the people in Jerusalem and stirring unrest among the king's subjects. The king became angry and wrote to his deputy in Jerusalem to arrest the rebel leader, stop him from causing unrest, crucify him and make him wear a crown of thorns. When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that `Isa was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. Allah said,



    (And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion.

    Ibn Abbas Tafsir

    (And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger) Allah destroyed their man Tatianos. (They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them) Allah made Tatianos look like Jesus and so they killed him instead of him; (and lo! those who disagree concerning it) concerning his killing (are in doubt thereof) in doubt about his killing; (they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture) not even conjecture; (they slew him not for certain) i.e. certainly they did not kill him. [Sura 4 aya 157 ; ibn Abbas]
    This contradicts with another commentator Al-Jalalayn who confirms that the likeness of Jesus was cast onto the one who schemed to kill him

    God says: And they, the disbelievers among the Children of Israel, schemed, against Jesus, by assigning someone to assassinate him; and God schemed, by casting the likeness of Jesus onto the person who intended to kill him, and so they killed him, while Jesus was raised up into heaven; and God is the best of schemers, most knowledgeable of him [Jesus]. [tafsir Al Jalalayn Sura 3 aya 54]

    The tafsir is also supported by Barnabas gospel which says the likeness of Jesus was cast onto Judas who had schemed to kill him and not the one who volunteered to take his place . Judas knew full well that Jesus was a prophet of God, still, he conspired to kill him and Romans and Jews, who had long since been conspiring to kill Jesus, killed Judas, who looked like Jesus as shown from the below chapters and video clip

    Chapter 215
    When the soldiers with Judas drew near to the place where Jesus was, Jesus heard the approach of many people, wherefore in fear he withdrew into the house. And the eleven were sleeping. Then God, seeing the danger of his servant, commanded Gabriel;, Michael;, Rafael;, and Uriel;, his ministers, to take Jesus out of the world. The holy angels came and took Jesus out by the window that looks toward the South;. They bare him and placed him in the third heaven in the company of angels blessing God for evermore.


    Chapter 216
    Judas entered impetuously before all into the chamber whence Jesus had been taken up. And the disciples were sleeping. Whereupon the wonderful God acted wonderfully, insomuch that Judas was so changed in speech and in face to be like Jesus that we believed him to be Jesus. And he, having awakened us, was seeking where the Master was. Whereupon we marvelled, and answered: 'You, Lord, are our master; have you now forgotten us?'
    And he, smiling, said: 'Now are you foolish, that know not me to be Judas Iscariot!' And as he was saying this the soldiery entered, and laid their hands upon Judas, because he was in every way like to Jesus.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWn0_4A0YRs

    So who was put on the cross - Tatianos the one who volunteered or Judas who tried to kill him ?
    I guess we will never know at least not until Jesus(PBUH) descends and when he tells us what really happened
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    When truth is hurled at falsehood , falsehood perishes. because falsehood by its nature is bound to perish [21:18- Holy quran]

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    format_quote Originally Posted by B_M View Post
    On my search thru Truth, I have misunderstanding of this passage.

    Does one take this as a literal passage or metaphorically? And if, one is supposed to take it literal, what is said for the evidence below?

    let's look at your evidence


    I love Islam, but evidence speaks for itself.. and I'm torn, and am just looking for insight, this thread is not meant to ignite a war.
    Non-Biblical Pagan Accounts

    1. Thallus (52AD)
    Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient that his writings don’t even exist anymore. But Julius Africanus, writing around 221AD does quote Thallus who had previously tried to explain away the darkness that occurred at the point of Jesus’ crucifixion:

    "On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)
    this is hearsay, the writings don't exist. at best, we can believe that at some point there was an eclipse. we CAN agree at some point during the 1st century that there was an eclipse in Judea. that is NOT evidence that Isa ibn Marriam was crucified. it is evidence of an eclipse

    2. Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
    Early Christians are also described in secular history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:

    "They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."
    Pliny wrote that there were Christians. that is NOT "evidence" that Isa ibn Marriam was crucified. it is evidence that there were Christians. we can agree on that too.

    3. Suetonius (69-140AD)
    Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):

    "Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome)." (Life of Claudius, 25:4)

    This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:

    "Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief." (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)
    THIS is evidence how Christians were treated under Claudius and Nero, we can agree on this as well, HOWEVER, that is NOT evidence that Isa ibn Marriam was crucified

    4. Tacitus (56-120AD)
    Cornelius Tacitus was known for his analysis and examination of historical documents and is among the most trusted of ancient historians. He was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and was also proconsul of Asia. In his “Annals’ of 116AD, he describes Emperor Nero’s response to the great fire in Rome and Nero’s claim that the Christians were to blame:

    "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular."
    see above. this is NOT evidence that Isa ibn Marriam was crucified.

    5. Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
    Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact that Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. As a matter of fact, Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:

    "What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted."
    well, i never heard of this so i had to google it, and what did i find? nothing that leads me to believe in it's authenticity. HOWEVER, i don't even see the name Jesus in the passage that you quoted. therefore, it is NOT evidence that Isa ibn Marriam was crucified. all across the Christian world, the children have "evidence" of Santa Claus, but he doesn't exist, does he?

    6. Phlegon (80-140AD)
    In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

    "Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour." (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

    Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

    “Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

    “And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place ... ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

    “Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)
    this cat wasn't born until 50 years after Isa ibn Marriam rose to heaven, ergo hearsay.

    7. Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
    Lucian was a Greek satirist who spoke sarcastically of Christ and Christians, but in the process, he did affirm that they were real people and never referred to them as fictional characters:

    "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account....You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)
    ditto, hearsay

    8. Celsus (175AD)
    This is the last hostile ‘pagan’ account we will examine (although there are many other later accounts in history). Celsus was quite hostile to the Gospels, but in his criticism, he unknowingly affirms and reinforces the authors and their content. His writing is extensive and he alludes to 80 different Biblical quotes, confirming their early appearance in history. In addition, he admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century! Here is a portion of his text:

    “Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a *******. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”
    double ditto

    1. Josephus (37-101AD)
    In more detail than any other non-biblical historian, Josephus writes about Jesus in his “the Antiquities of the Jews” in 93AD. Josephus was born just four years after the crucifixion. He was a consultant for Jewish rabbis at age thirteen, was a Galilean military commander by the age of sixteen, and he was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Under the rule of roman emperor Vespasian, Josephus was allowed to write a history of the Jews. This history includes three passages about Christians, one in which he describes the death of John the Baptist, one in which he mentions the execution of James and describes him as the brother of Jesus the Christ, and a final passage which describes Jesus as a wise man and the messiah. Now there is much controversy about the writing of Josephus, because the first discoveries of his writings are late enough to have been re-written by Christians, who are accused of making additions to the text. So to be fair, let’s take a look at a scholarly reconstruction that has removed all the possible Christian influence from the text related to Jesus:

    “Now around this time lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was a worker of amazing deeds and was a teacher of people who gladly accept the truth. He won over both many Jews and many Greeks. Pilate, when he heard him accused by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, (but) those who had first loved him did not cease (doing so). To this day the tribe of Christians named after him has not disappeared” (This neutral reconstruction follows closely the one proposed in the latest treatment by John Meier, Marginal Jew 1:61)
    hearsay although many scholars believe this passage to be a forgery.

    to some up. the are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts outside of Christian accounts of the execution of Isa ibn Marriam! NOR are there any WITHIN Christianity!

    so what's the problem?

    peace


    ps: it appears that you cut and pasted your "evidence" from here:

    http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/inde...side_the_Bible

    btw, we have a rule on citing sources.
    Last edited by YusufNoor; 10-17-2010 at 11:41 AM. Reason: found the "stolen" evidence
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire
    http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    B_M, quite simply, Allah raised Jesus (upon him be peace) to the heavens and protected him from the plot of the evil doers and substituted in his place someone else and everyone there at the time assumed it was Jesus that was being crucified. Jesus will descend in the end times to defeat the dajjal (anti christ) and go on to live a normal life here on Earth. 'Every soul shall taste death', as we are told in the Quraan, and since technically Jesus is not dead, he has to come back to Earth to finish the rest of his life.

    Regarding the other non-biblical sources you bring, you should keep in mind, from the muslim perspective, the Quraan is the word of Allah and has been protected from corruption. Everything contained in it is flawless and the utmost truth. So for us, it is futile to look at external articles such as the one you bring to judge whether or not the Quraan is true, but rather the opposite ought to be done (i.e. your quotes should be matched up to what the Quraan says and then disregarded as being tampered with/corrupted if anything it says contradicts the Quraan).

    The Quranic text overrides all other sources in terms of being the truth, so quite frankly (respectfully), your quotes are useless to Muslims.

    And this approach of ours makes sense. First you have to establish the truthfulness of Islam. If you have this, then anything else that contradicts it, by default, is incorrect.

    Please seek sincere guidance from God/Allah that you be guided to the truth. Allah has said if we take one step toward him, he comes running to us. So going by that, I believe that if you are indeed sincere in your quest for truth, without doubt and God willing, you will be brought to Islam.

  16. #13
    Woodrow's Avatar Jewel of IB
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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    The Biblical account is irrelevant. we do agree somebody was Crucified and the witnesses did believe it was Prophet Isa(as). But the Qur'an explains be, since the Qur'an is the True word of Allaah(swt) there is no need for concern about the accounts of what the people believed they saw. We do know they witnessed a crucifixtion and did believe it was Jesus(as). But what people report as fact is not necessarily the truth. For the truth the word of God(swt) is sufficient.

    This is an impassable issue to agree upon as we as Muslims accept the Qur'an as being the word of Allaah(swt) and non-Muslims accept other books as such. This is a point we need only know we disagree and the reasons why we disagree. All we as humans can do is agree to disagree peacefully.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Herman 1 - Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?


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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Sister B-M, I think you have been talking to too many missionaries. Am I right in thinking that you got that highly suspicious list from them?

    I just remembered something that I wrote in an article on my site:


    Did Judas commit suicide?

    And throwing down the pieces of silver in the temple, he departed; and he went and hanged himself. (Matthew 27:5)

    Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. (Acts 1:18)

    I’ve heard all manner of strange harmonizations for this contradiction, including this very strange one by Answering Islam (found at http://debate.org.uk/):

    Matthew 27:1-10 mentioned the fact that Judas died by hanging himself in order to be strictly factual. Luke, however in his report in Acts1:18-19 wants to cause the feeling of revulsion among his readers, for the field spoken about and for Judas, and nowhere denies that Judas died by hanging. According to tradition, it would seem that Judas hanged himself on the edge of a cliff, above the Valley of Hinnom. Eventually the rope snapped, was cut or untied and Judas fell upon the field below as described by Luke.
    The problem with that explanation is that you don’t fall headlong when you hang yourself: you fall the opposite way, feet first. But personally, I’m suspicious of this tradition that Answering Islam mentioned in the above quoted but offered no direct references to, and let’s face it, folks: you’re making quite a stretch when you introduce a cliff out of nowhere.

    Did Judas die at all?

    For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. (1 Corinthians 15:3-5)

    Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. (Matthew 28:16-17)

    The response Christian inerrantists give is always the same: “The Twelve” was just a title that Paul was using to refer to the eleven. Think about that and I think you’ll see how ridiculous it is.

    How did the Field of Blood get its name?

    Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel’dama, that is, Field of Blood. (Acts 1:18-19)

    The chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, “It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since they are blood money.So they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.” Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day. (Matthew 27:6-8)

    Regarding this, Answering Islam says:

    Both passages agree that it was due to it being bought by blood-money. Acts 1:18-19 starts by saying, “With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field”. So it begins with the assumption that the field was bought by the blood-money, and then the author intending to cause revulsion for what had happened describes Judas bloody end on that piece of real estate.
    What they’re telling you here is that because they read an assumption into one verse, therefore it agrees with another verse even though it clearly doesn’t. They have no way of knowing if the author of Acts was writing under any assumption or another, but simply make their own assumption about it because otherwise their inerrantist goose is cooked. They offer no evidence that the Acts passage was written under the assumption that the Matthew passage was true, and as far as I can see there is no evidence possible. They just made it up.

    …Now, what are the most important, improbable contradictions I’ve listed? Right, they’re the ones about Judas Iscariot. There’s confusion not only over how he died, but over whether he died. This fits the common Islamic idea that God miraculously switched his physical appearances with his teacher’s so that he was crucified instead. It all fits, don’t you see? That’s why there’s such confusion over Judas’s death, that’s why there’s such confusion over what happened at the crucifixion, that’s why the four Resurrection accounts of the Gospels are hopelessly inconsistent. God switched Jesus’s (peace be on him) and Judas’s appearances, Judas was crucified, the illusion and miracle created confusion, and there was no resurrection but God did take the blessed Jesus up to heaven.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Peace be to any prophets I may have mentioned above. Praised and exalted be my Maker, if I have mentioned Him. (Come to think of it praise Him anyway.)

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  19. #15
    Muhaba's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman View Post
    I have heard an interpretation that 4:157 was merely saying that those particular people were not the ones who crucified him, and not that he wasn't crucified at all. I have no comment to make on the issue (I don't even know Arabic), but if you do assume that the passage was saying that he wasn't crucified by anyone then it doesn't really matter how many external sources say that they saw it happening or know of it supposedly happening, because the passage itself fully admits to it being what the people saw.
    This interpretation is wrong. Jesus A.S was not crucified by those people or any other people. He was saved by Allah from them and raised up alive and will return to the earth in future. The quran verifies this in several places, including the verse that states that Jesus A.S will talk to people in the cradle and in old age. When he was on earth before he never attained old age. So when he returns the second time he will fulfill this prophecy.

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman View Post
    I have heard an interpretation that 4:157 was merely saying that those particular people were not the ones who crucified him, and not that he wasn't crucified at all. I have no comment to make on the issue .
    for those who would care to read,I refuted that point (besides the point of the substitution and others) in details here in that thread ...

    http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ucified-8.html

    peace for all
    Last edited by Al-manar; 10-18-2010 at 11:27 AM.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    http://almanar3.blogspot.com/

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al-manar View Post
    for those who would care to read,I refuted that point (besides the point of the substitution and others) in details right here ...

    http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ucified-8.html

    peace for all
    So in short , you believe that there was no specific individual crucified, either Jesus or his alleged clone and believe this story was a later invention/legend by the Jews
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    When truth is hurled at falsehood , falsehood perishes. because falsehood by its nature is bound to perish [21:18- Holy quran]

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce View Post
    So in short , you believe that there was no specific individual crucified, either Jesus or his alleged clone and believe this story was a later invention/legend by the Jews
    Alaikomalsalam Bro ...I hope you are in the best health...

    yes I believe that there was no specific individual crucified,why?

    because there was no crucifiction took place.... and I believe(based on the Quran) the story was a false hearsay account spreaded by those who followed conjecture...

    Holy Quran 4:157 they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture.

    peace and bless...
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    http://almanar3.blogspot.com/

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    Walikumassalaam, bro

    Yes , but the same verse says "wa laakin shubi alauhum"


    1. Translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
    "only a likeness of that was shown to them."
    2. Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
    "but it appeared so unto them;"
    3. Translation by Professor Arthur J. Arberry:
    "only a likeness of that was shown to them."


    So what was the likeness that was shown to them ? Are you trying to say they had a dream or a vision on that "Good" Friday in which they saw the crucifixion and then started spreading the lie?
    Last edited by Predator; 10-17-2010 at 07:41 PM.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    When truth is hurled at falsehood , falsehood perishes. because falsehood by its nature is bound to perish [21:18- Holy quran]

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    Re: Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce View Post
    Walikumassalaam, bro

    Yes , but the same verse says "wa laakin shubi alauhum"
    I think at first, we need to translate the verse word by word literally

    the verse in Arabic :

    (وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا) [النساء: 157.


    وقولهم And their saying

    we killed the messiah إنا قتلنا المسيح

    Jesus عيسى

    son of Mary ابن مريم

    رسول الله the messeneger of God

    وما قتلوه but they didn't kill him

    وما صلبوه and didn't crucify him

    ولكن but

    it appeared to be so شبه لهم

    وإن الذين اختلفوا فيه and those who differed about it

    لفي شك منه have doubt about it

    ما لهم به من علم إلا اتباع الظن they have no knowledge about it but conjecture


    Question: what is the antecedent of the pronoun (him) immediately after kill?

    obviously it is Jesus.. the same case of the pronoun (him) immediately after crucify...

    now If you notice I have made a shift of pronouns after (but) ,why?

    because it is meaningless to use (he) making Jesus its antecedent ,why?

    let's rewrite the verse using (he) which is the only possible choice besides (it):


    we killed the messiah إنا قتلنا المسيح

    Jesus عيسى

    son of Mary ابن مريم

    رسول الله the messeneger of God

    وما قتلوه but they didn't kill him

    وما صلبوه and didn't crucify him

    ولكن but

    he appeared to be so شبه لهم

    وإن الذين اختلفوا فيه and those who differed about him

    لفي شك منه have doubt about him

    ما لهم به من علم إلا اتباع الظن they have no knowledge about him but conjecture


    Question ,you know the consequences of using the pronoun (he) ( he appeared to be so) ? it would bring the substitution theory on its face and reverse it..???????

    because what (he) refers to then? it would be a reference to Jesus(not anyone else) , making jesus the one who appeared to them?!!!!!!

    more problems with that understanding?

    just let's continue using (he) instead of (it)

    and those who differed about him

    we have to ask again, differed about him in what sense?

    may be some said he was crucified and others said he was substituted

    ok just let's see the follwing part

    have doubt about him

    if they differed ,then they were 2 groups ...one believe in something opposite to one believed by others isn't it?
    for example let's suppose that the disciples of Jesus were certain of the substitution and others were certain of killing..... so how could the disciples included in those who have doubts?
    if you exclude the disciples then there was no differing to begin with....

    also if I had been a jew witnessed a crucifiction of someone 100% looking like Jesus ,and never met the real Jesus again, I would have never

    first:felt doubt.
    second:believed a claim of substitution....
    I would just mock such claim of substitution as a foolish, desperate try by his poor disciples to give the impression that their beloved teacher was saved in such weird way....

    I have shown more problems with such theory in the thread I refered to(for those who would like to read)

    ......................

    what if we use the pronoun it instead of (he)...

    details in the thread I just refered to in the previous post..


    peace for all
    Last edited by Al-manar; 10-18-2010 at 11:40 AM.
    Do Muslims Believe Jesus Was Not Really Crucified?

    http://almanar3.blogspot.com/


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