for christians : a question about salvation.

[marwen]

I just want to more understand this term. Not intended to make a debate, just need a clarification from my christian mates here or ex-christians or someone who have knowledge about christianity.

I have difficulties with some terminologies and concepts used by christian people what makes it hard for me to understand what they are talking about.

My question is about "Salvation".

Yesterday I was seeing the news on website, and I was attracted by a top banner saying : "Jesus In Tunisia". Dunno how they figured out that I'm living in Tunisia (from my IP adress I guess ). Never heard about that before, I clicked on and got a long text with pictures talking abou Salvation and how Jesus died for me and I should take profit of the salvation otherwise I will be punished by eternal death.

I don't know who makes these texts to ask him directly what he means so I'll post my questions here :

1) What is the right definition/meaning of salvation ?
2) does every christian believe in it ?
3) Why/is eternal death the punishment of no-christians ( or people who are not saved) ? Do christians not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment ?

[PouringRain]

My question is about "Salvation".

1) What is the right definition/meaning of salvation ?
2) does every christian believe in it ?
3) Why/is eternal death the punishment of no-christians ( or people who are not saved) ? Do christians not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment ?

1) Basically.... Salvation means being saved from eternal ****ation. Those who are "saved" will be in heaven one day. If you want to get more complex, christians have all sorts of differences in interpretation about who is or is not "saved," what constitutes salvation, etc. Some believe in a OSAS doctrine-- "once saved always saved." Under that doctrine, once an individual accepts that christ is his savior, then the individual is saved. The majority of Christian denominations do NOT teach OSAS. Some teach that salvation can be lost. Some teach that if an individual continues to live in sin following their decision to follow Christ, then they were never saved to begin with. Etc. Some church have a set of acts that one must follow in order to be considered saved (i.e. baptism). Other say that acceptance of Christ is enough. The list goes on.

If you want to make the anology to Islam, in order to better understand it, "salvation" for christian would be like the moment that a muslim pronounces the shahada. At that moment, just as an individual is counted as a muslim, in christianty the repentance of sins and declaration of faith is the moment of "salvation." Just as in Islam, it is the moment that the slate is washed clean and the individual is a new creation, pure, sins washed away.

After that point is where the beliefs separate. Very few teach that moment alone is salvation, and from then on the individual is saved. The Bible speaks of working out ones salvation with fear and trembling. It also speaks of faith without works is dead. And there are a number of other things. But it does say that the law is not what saves man. It is through faith that man is saved.

2) Every christian believes in it, but that does not mean that every "christian" is "saved." No one is born a Christian. Every individual must reach a point in his or her life where they make a decision to accept Christ as savior and follow him. Even those who were raised in church and believe they were just "always saved" or "always a christian" must still reach that point in life of making a decision.

When I say that not every "christian" is "saved" it goes back to what I was talking about a moment ago. The Bible says that there are those who will cry "Lord. Lord" and he will say "I knew you not." There are those, it says, who will say we have cast out demons in your name and prophesied in your name, and he will say "I never knew you." The Bible is clear that not everyone who claims to believe in Jesus will be saved. I'm sure that everyone who reads my post will be able to readily think of at least one individual who claims to be a Christian, yet produces bad fruit. I use the word "fruit," because the Bible tells us we will know them by their fruits. A good tree does not produce bad fruits and a bad tree does not produce good fruits. We all have sinned and have a sin nature, but someone who has truly made a decision to follow Jesus does not delight in iniquity, nor follow after sin.

3) Eternal death/ hell is the punishment of non-believers, because they have chosen to reject God. It is no different than in Islam when they say that those who reject God will be punished in hell. In Christianity, you will get differences of opinions about death, hell, etc. Some will say that unbelievers go to hell for all eternity. Some point to in Revelation where it speaks of the final judgment where even those in hell will be judged again, and then their fate will be sealed (which implies that one could actually not stay in hell for eternity, and could escape it at that time, or at that time would be case forever into the lake of fire). (Perhaps it is similar to the Jewish concept of a purging by fire for a time, but I won't presume to know exactly what the author was thinking of when he wrote it.) Some Christians believe that some Jews will also be saved, others teach not unless they accept Jesus as savior. Overall, the teachings are varied.

Your question asked why "death" is the eternal punishment, and don't Christians believe in hell. The author of the website probably was using "eternal death" to mean "hell." The Bible uses a variety of terms. Sheol, Abbadon, Gehinnom, bottomless pit, lake of fire, etc.

Many Christians simply believe in a heaven and a hell- and an individual goes to one or the other after death. I think the reason most Christians believe this way is just for simplicity's sake. The whole of it all is much more complex. Some believe in a type of soul sleep (in the "grave") until the judgment. Most believe individual's go directly to one or the other.

[marwen]

wow ! a very clear and detailed explanation ! this clarifies things a lot now.
Thank you so much sister PouringRain. that's all what I needed.

[Perseveranze]

Peace,

All Christians get saved for believing Jesus died for their sins and is the son of God. Apparently, Jesus(pbuh) will save them from God's wrath.

[Ramadhan]

All Christians get saved for believing Jesus died for their sins and is the son of God. Apparently, Jesus(pbuh) will save them from God's wrath.

ummm... isn't jesus (according to christians) God?
so which other god are you talking about?

[Unknown Patron]

Jesus is considered to be "True-Man" and "True-God", for only this way would he have been able to die for our sin's.
Put very simply.
He must be 'True-Man' because 'man' alone had invoked the Lord's wraith. At the same time however he must be 'True-God' because no mortal man would ever be able to stand up and satisfy the Lord's anger.
You know the saying it take's one to know one? Yea, only if he was 'True-God' would he be able to take the full weight of mankinds sin's.

You would have to wait and see if a more versed Christian will reply for a more detailed description, because I'm mostly just here for the reading.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus is considered to be "True-Man" and "True-God", for only this way would he have been able to die for our sin's.

Sorry, but flowery as your words are, those words are empty.
Are you making this up?
Did jesus (p) say this or did your priests (alive and dead) tell you this?

he must be 'True-God' because no mortal man would ever be able to stand up and satisfy the Lord's anger.

So does this mean Jesus is not Lord?
What brand of christian are you?
I thought christians believe jesus is Lord/God?

You would have to wait and see if a more versed Christian will reply for a more detailed description, because I'm mostly just here for the reading.

Let me break the news for you,

Since IslamicBoard came to existence, no less than pastors, priests, theologians, nuns, etc from all different brands of christianity have attempted to explain who jesus is according to christians, and sadly, apart from long-winded flowery words, none of us had got nothing.

ironically (and thankfully), many christians who (finally) use their reasons to learn more about Jesus (p) find out that the concept of jesus (p) as God just does not sit very well with our reason, logic, and conscience.

[Perseveranze]

ummm... isn't jesus (according to christians) God?
so which other god are you talking about?

Asalaamu Alaikum,

God's wrath on the Day of Judgment is upon sinners

On the Day of Judgment God will judge all people for their sins against Him. He will judge all who have lied, stolen, cheated, lusted, dishonored their parents, etc. He will do this because He is holy and righteous. God must punish the sinner. God cannot and will not ignore the person who has broken His righteous law. The Law is a reflection of the character of God. Therefore, to break God's law is to offend God and deny the holiness of His character. He will be vindicated. He will judge.
The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). That means that your sins have caused a separation between you and God (Isaiah 59:2) and the result is death (Rom. 6:23) and wrath (Eph. 2:3). The only way to be saved from the wrath of God, is to be saved from it by faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 5:1). You must trust in what Jesus did on the cross to forgive you of your sins and not trust anything else, not even your own sincerity or works. It is Jesus and only Jesus who can turn away the righteous judgment of God upon the sinner.

The gospel is that Jesus died for sinners on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4). His death was a sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God (1 John 2:2). This is the only way to be saved.
Jesus is the one who died for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). He is the only way to the God the Father (John 14:6). He alone reveals God (Matt. 11:27). He has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). It is only through Him that you can be saved from God's wrath (Eph. 2:3). He can forgive you of your sin (Luke 5:20; Matt. 9:2). He can remove the guilt that is upon your soul. Jesus can set you free from the bondage of sin that blinds your eyes, weakens your soul, and brings you to despair. He can do this because He bore sin in His body on the cross (1 Peter. 2:24) that those who trust in Him would be saved.
If you are not a Christian, and want to be delivered from the righteous judgment of God upon you due to your sin against Him, then come to the One who died for the sins of the world. Come to the One who died for sinners (Matt. 11:28). Turn from your sins. Believe and trust in Jesus. Receive Jesus, who is God in flesh, who died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4) as your Lord and Savior. Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins. Receive Christ (John 1:12). Only He can wash you clean from your sins and only Jesus can deliver you from the righteous judgment of a holy and infinite God. Pray to Jesus. Seek Him. Ask Him to save you.
He will.
I would like to note, that the Jesus of Mormonism (the brother of the devil), the Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses (an angel made into a man), the Jesus of the New Age (a man in tune with the divine consciousness), etc., cannot save you from your sins. Faith is only as good as the person in whom you put it... the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus is God in flesh, the creator. God is a trinity and Jesus is the second person of the trinity.
If you have prayed and asked Jesus to deliver you from your sins and save you from God's wrath, then please email us at CARM and let us know.

http://carm.org/christianity/answers...-jesus-save-us

I'm sure they confuse themselves over trinity as much as us.

[Ramadhan]

I'm sure they confuse themselves over trinity as much as us.

There's a difference: They love being confused and delude themselves.

We look at the confusion from the outside with pity.
Or sometimes with amusement seeing someone tries to explain trinity and trip all over themselves with many various contradictory bible passages, faulty logic and turned-off reason, and cover it all up with long-winded and flowery words and sentences.

[Pygoscelis]

ummm... isn't jesus (according to christians) God?
so which other god are you talking about?

The Jesus story and sacrifice is made incoherent by the concept of the trinity.

The claim that Jeus is God's only begotten son and stood up for Man and convinced God through his sacrifice that man should be forgiven for his sins, is a claim that I have issues with, but it is at least coherent.

But if Jesus IS God, then the claim is that God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind (about man's salvation), and not only do I take issue with the claim, but it is completely incoherent.

[RickLannoye]

Dear Marwen,

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians believe "salvation" means that the right type of Christians will go to Heaven after they die and everyone else will go to Hell.

However, Jesus never, ever taught this, and those who think he did are either very mislead or purposely distorting his message.

Actually, Jesus' message was that God loves ALL, and forgives ALL. Yes, God calls us to repent of our sins, but His response to our sinfulness is not to be infinitely worse to us than all of us have been toward ourselves and each other.

"Salvation," then, really refers to those who have come to the knowledge that God loves them unconditionally, forgives them of all their sins and calls them to imitate God's love and forgiveness in the way they treat others. All people are "saved" in the limited sense that God cares for all, loves all and forgives all, but not every realizes it.

I explain this idea and many others related to it in my book Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There Is No Such Place As Hell, but I hope my brief comment here is of some help already.

Rick Lannoye

[MustafaMc]

Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There Is No Such Place As Hell

Your denying that Hell exists does not stop it from being so. What are you doing to stay out of it?

[Ramadhan]

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians believe "salvation" means that the right type of Christians will go to Heaven after they die and everyone else will go to Hell. However, Jesus never, ever taught this, and those who think he did are either very mislead or purposely distorting his message. Actually, Jesus' message was that God loves ALL, and forgives ALL. Yes, God calls us to repent of our sins, but His response to our sinfulness is not to be infinitely worse to us than all of us have been toward ourselves and each other. "Salvation," then, really refers to those who have come to the knowledge that God loves them unconditionally, forgives them of all their sins and calls them to imitate God's love and forgiveness in the way they treat others. All people are "saved" in the limited sense that God cares for all, loves all and forgives all, but not every realizes it. I explain this idea and many others related to it in my book Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There Is No Such Place As Hell, but I hope my brief comment here is of some help already.

Is that meant to be fiction?

Because i'm sure (even if I'm muslim) that your explanation above is definitely not supported by your bible.

Or, as I have drawn conclusion long time ago, it seems every christians are free to make up what they believe ... about anything really, even about God.

[Danah]

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

[PouringRain]

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

This is one area where Christians differ. Some will tell you that if he is a Christian, then yes he will be saved. Others might say that he is backslidden. Others may say that if he continues in his sinful ways following "salvation" (his decision to follow Christ), and has no desire for change, then he was never saved to begin with.

To repent means to turn away from the sin, so it is not enough to simply ask God for forgiveness-- the man must also turn away from those sins he commits. When a man makes a decision to follow Christ, and he repents of his sins, then he must also turn from the sin and "follow Christ" (in word, deed, etc.). To continue is his sin is not repentance. God is ever forgiving, but he also knows the heart of a man. A man who apologizes with no change, was never apologetic to begin with. We are to "go and sin no more." This does not mean that we are perfect and sinless following salvation. Everyone messes up. But the repentant man, who has made a decision to follow Christ, should be continually striving towards having a right life before God. He will not bear the fruit of the bad tree. He will not walk in iniquity, devise wicked in his heart, etc. The Bible says that if a man so much as looks at a woman with lust, then he has sinned. We are judged not just by our actions, but by our hearts.

With all of that considered, in the scenario you ask about-- a man who continues to sin and hurt others, no he is not saved. If he were "saved" then he would not live a life of sin. He would continually strive to walk in righteousness and live a holy life. Unfortunately, it is common to find those who claim to be a christian in word-- yet their lifestyle is most un-christlike. That is why Jesus said that there are those who will say they have done all these things in Jesus name, and he will say "I knew you not." God knows the hearts of men. We can know them by their fruits. If they are producing bad fruits, then they are not "saved." And the Bible says they will be cast off and throw in the fire.

This doesn't mean that we should point fingers at someone and judge their salvation anytime they do something wrong. We are instructed to go to our brother in love and tell them what they are doing is wrong. If they reject you, you are to take another with you (1 or 2 others) and go to them (like a pastor). Then if they still will not hear you, you bring them before the congregation. If they will not listen then they are to be treated as an outcast. There are other places where the Bible instructs us not to sit with those who are living sinful lives. [There is even scriptural support that if we know our brother is in sin, and we fail to say anything, then we can be held responsible for his sin also.)] There is a time when we can count them out of the fold. But since we are all sinners, we must first go to them in love and show them the error of their ways and allow them the chance to repent.

Most people outside of Christianity look at Christians and they see all this sin and acceptance of sin. Certainly they see churches that accept sin and do things like ordaining homosexual ministers, etc. Not all churches are that way. Those within Christianity know that there are many churches who do not operate that way. I have been in churches that have asked unwed pregnant girls to go before the congregation and apologize for their sin. I have been in churches that will revoke the pastoral ordination of a minister who gets a divorce outside of the accepted reasons in the Bible. Groups, such as the Amish, still practice shunning. I have been in churches that have asked people to leave. Christians can be the most unforgiving towards sin within their congregations.



I hope I answered your question well enough. If not, please let me know.

[Danah]

I hope I answered your question well enough. If not, please let me know.

Thanks, yes you did explain your belief very well, now I would like to hear from those who hold the opinion that faith only can lead to salvation.

[truthseeker63]

This is a good thread.

[PouringRain]

Thanks, yes you did explain your belief very well, now I would like to hear from those who hold the opinion that faith only can lead to salvation.

I just wanted to point out that even in the above view it is still faith that we are saved by, not works. The works, the righteous living, the putting away sin, etc.-- all these things and more should arise out of a life of faith. But at the core of it, it is only the faith that brings the salvation.


I do agree with you that it would be nice to have others come share their beliefs. I have seen on other forums, and known in life, too many Christians who believe that all you need to do is accept Jesus and that is the end. Even within those you have differing beliefs. I could share some of these with you, but quite honestly you might get more from reading them yourself.

[Danah]

I just wanted to point out that even in the above view it is still faith that we are saved by, not works. The works, the righteous living, the putting away sin, etc.-- all these things and more should arise out of a life of faith. But at the core of it, it is only the faith that brings the salvation.


I do agree with you that it would be nice to have others come share their beliefs. I have seen on other forums, and known in life, too many Christians who believe that all you need to do is accept Jesus and that is the end. Even within those you have differing beliefs. I could share some of these with you, but quite honestly you might get more from reading them yourself.

In your view its the faith that lead a person to act righteously, so work and faith are working together well. While I really wonder how some people think that they can do whatever they like yet are assured that they have a free ticket to heaven just because they have faith in Jesus.

and yeah share some views with me please, I am curios to know.

[glo]

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

I somehow don't think the difference between the Islamic and Christian view is quite as great as some people think.

Both Muslims and Christians would argue that a belief in God is essential - am I right?

I think both would also argue that the faith and commitment we have in God should be reflected in our conduct and attitude towards others.
As Pouring Rain says, there may be differences amongst Christians as to whether faith alone guarantees eternal life - but I have yet to meet a Christian who thinks that all you have to say is 'I believe' ... and then you can continue in your sinful ways as before ...

I think the overriding concept is that when we start to believe in God, understand his great gift to us and commit ourselves to submit to him and serve him, then that process should lead to a change within us and give us a desire to be better, kinder, more gracious people.
And with the help of God we can!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

That doesn't mean that becoming a Christian or a Muslim makes us perfect people (although I have heard accounts from both faiths of people changing quite dramatically very suddenly!), but it should be the start of a process of letting God work within us and change us (even if it may be a bumpy ride at times ...)

Would both Muslims and Christians agree to that kind of concept?