Is there any Christians who still pray that way?

format_quote Originally Posted by Fivesolas

Airforce,

It is hard to interact with someone when they take an agressive and hostile tone. In a gentlemanly discussion there is no need to disparage the one your trying to refute. While I do not believe Sol knows everything, he has certainly demonstrated that he knows what he is talking about. And he has demonstrated that he is very aware of the use of a word in different contexts to mean different things. The accusations you raise (or, rather, that you copied from a website presenting them as your own, without citing the source, which is dishonest) can be answered reasonably. But I have a greater concern for you than the disparagement you have cast on the Holy Scriptures. It is written,

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matt 12:32

In your attempt to refute the Holy Scriptures and Christians there is no need to speak against the Holy Spirit. Be careful my friend.

It doesnt matter one bit to me since i dont beleive your book is the word of God . The Holy Ghost who has inspired authors of the bible has proven himself a failure . Period.

Just a reminder to please keep this discussion civilised.

Jesus said the following concerning praying:


5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.11 Give us this day our daily bread.12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 5-15)

Thus Jesus commanded his followers to pray to the Father, to the true God who is in the heavens as he says, Jesus did not command his followers to pray to him, so therefore why do Christians pray to Jesus when he explicitly taught people to pray to the Father!


So when Christians pray to Jesus they are simply acting against what he taught, and are acting on an innovation, and this innovation is a major sin, worshipping anything else beside the true God is a major sin, so why do Christians do it?

Secondly if one were to continue reading the Gospels one would find Jesus praying as well, as the Gospel says:

36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. 38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. 39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (Matthew 26:36-39)

Here we see Jesus praying, and he is praying to none other than the Father as he commanded his believers to do so! So why do Christians worship Jesus when he prayed to the Father, and taught you to worship the Father!

It also makes it more interesting to note that Jesus prays or prayed like a Muslim does, which is prostrating ones forehead on the ground. Will Christians now mock Jesus as they sometimes mock the way Muslims pray when we prostrate our foreheads to the ground? It seems the joke is now on the Christians who mock the Muslim prayer! (oh look at all those Muslims with their butt in the air! Haha) . Christians lying on thier knees before bed isnt the way Jesus prayed . So why do you do it ? Think about it.

I don't see how but I'll take your word for it. I thought I refering to those that make fun of others because of the way they pray.
Still you say tomato I'll say tomatoe. In short, those that insult others need to carefully look in the mirror, because we'll all have to give an accounting in the end. Don't you agree?

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

Can you please give us the original narration in the original language?
You don't suppose Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples spoke to each others in modern english, do you?

they were original written in koine greek which was the speech most accessible to the widest possible audience. this was in order to spread the gospel to as great a number of people as possible seeing as god has intended for christianity to be the religion of all people. that said, what exactly is your point with the above and how in fact does this disprove anything that the member said? if anything, the muslim position has been refuted and you are now changing the subject from whether or not the worship of christ is taught within scripture to what language it was originally written in. the above is a prime example of a non-sequitur.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

This does not answer my question.

once again your question is a non-sequitur. your question has been answered yet you refuse to accept the answer.

that said, are you at all aware of the LXX? the fact is that prior to the christian era the jews themselves translated the hewbrew scriptures into greek. the LXX had a nice enough circulation among the jews and converted gentiles. it is therefore not surprising that the original gospel would also be written in greek because this was the lingua franca of the day. this was in order to allow the maximum possible exposure of the gospel to the masses. most scholars (and not just christian) are in agreement that the gospels were written in greek, it is simply individuals such as yourself that refuse to admit this. another important factor is the fact that paul, himself a jew was writing his letters in greek and not hebrew, this furthermore lends credence to the view that a global message such as that of the gospel would in fact have been written in greek. just as today, the lingua franca is english and as such if you want to expose your work to the largest variety of people then you will write in english. there's absolutely nothing wrong with that when you are spreading a universal message.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus

what exactly would it prove even if we were to give you the narrations? anyway, here they are all the same.

Because we all know that the original words when translated to different languages would lose their exact meaning, nuances, etc. So without the originals preserved, we can never guarantee what is written in different languages convey the exact same meanings.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus

here is what the gospel was originally written in (matthew 28:9-10):

Both you and I know that it is not the original, unless you like to delude yourself. No one else even remotely believe it is the original, not even bible scholars, as the oldest preserved bible were from the 4th century, unless you think scraps of manuscript the size of a credit card containing few verses as the complete bible. And even then, it was not written in the language of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. So no one actually knows exactly what Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples really spoke and meant.

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus

here we have it in hebrew:

Both you and I know that the hebrew NT was translated from english NT, either you try to delude yourself or you really think that english was the original language of Jesus (pbuh).

format_quote Originally Posted by Sol Invictus

congratulations you have just shot yourself in the foot. the qur'an is not written in the original language of christ either and if we are to go by what you said then we must also discount it. i was simply waiting for you to get to this point so that i could show you how your logic actually disproves your own holy book. the fact is that the qur'an is written in arabic and seeing as your point rests on the fact that the current bible is supposedly not the original one and that it is not written in the language that christ supposedly spoke then what about the qur'an when it speaks of the old testament prophets? did they speak arabic too? also, where are your copies of the original gospel, torah etc.? don't all muslims claim that these have been lost? so once again, you've only refuted yourself and islam.

The Qur'an was revealed through an arab in Arabia, hence it was conveyed in arabic. Do you think it's acceptable if we have the qur'an written in Greek koine while we have no orginal in arabic?

Where was injeel revealed and through whom?
In athena through a greek?
or in medieval england through an englishman?