Forgiveness vs Atonement

**MustafaMc** · 05-21-2011

Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?

First to clarify the definition of 2 important words:
Atone - to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime
Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.)

From a Christian perspective, does Allah forgive (cancel, erase) a Christian of his sin or is his debt of sins atoned (paid, compensated) for by Jesus' Blood? One may see it as nit-picking but if a debt is forgiven then it is cancelled as a free gift without any payment from anyone. I see an atonement as a payment to offset or substitute for that debt even if the one to whom the debt is owed makes arrangement for its payment. If the debt is to Allah, then I don't see how He can pay or sacrifice Himself for something that is owed to Him. It makes more sense that out of His mercy and with a figurative sweep of His hand, then the sin debt vanishes.

A human repents by feeling regret, asking for forgiveness and intending to not repeat the sin, but how does he make amends? In Islam we make amends or atonement for our sins by offering additional charity, fasts or prayers, but are those deeds required for forgiveness? We have the concept of offsetting sins with good deeds akin to a balancing scale of justice, but this is seen as 'earning' one's salvation. Isn't Allah able to forgive sin with only repentance or is an atonement or payment for sin debt also required?

I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?

**UUSeeker** · 06-13-2011

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Does the justice of Allah require a sacrificial payment or an off-setting good deed to atone for sin, or can He graciously forgive sin straight away with only the sinner asking Him for forgiveness in sincere repentance?

First to clarify the definition of 2 important words:
Atone - to make amends or reparation, as for an offense or a crime
Forgive - to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.)

From a Christian perspective, does Allah forgive (cancel, erase) a Christian of his sin or is his debt of sins atoned (paid, compensated) for by Jesus' Blood? One may see it as nit-picking but if a debt is forgiven then it is cancelled as a free gift without any payment from anyone. I see an atonement as a payment to offset or substitute for that debt even if the one to whom the debt is owed makes arrangement for its payment. If the debt is to Allah, then I don't see how He can pay or sacrifice Himself for something that is owed to Him. It makes more sense that out of His mercy and with a figurative sweep of His hand, then the sin debt vanishes.

A human repents by feeling regret, asking for forgiveness and intending to not repeat the sin, but how does he make amends? In Islam we make amends or atonement for our sins by offering additional charity, fasts or prayers, but are those deeds required for forgiveness? We have the concept of offsetting sins with good deeds akin to a balancing scale of justice, but this is seen as 'earning' one's salvation. Isn't Allah able to forgive sin with only repentance or is an atonement or payment for sin debt also required?

I personally see that Allah is merciful and forgiving along the lines of "...those who remember God and implore forgiveness for their sins if they do something shameful or wrong themselves - who forgives sins but God?..." (Qur'an, 3:135) If Allah can forgive sins, doesn't that completely negate the basic premise of Christianity - Jesus' supposed sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with Allah?

I read through this thread, with many strong opinions expressed, but thought I would start with the original question/comment.
While I am a Unitarian Universalist, I have studied Christianity, but I still have a hard time with the whole forgiveness/atonement thing.
My faith tradition does not include punishment for sin, because we don't believe in sin.
When you asked why, since Christians say Jesus died for their sins, why do they need saving, I believe that is a very valid question, and one my predecessors asked centuries before me, and answered it by establishing a belief in universal salvation.
In other words, Unitarian Universalism teaches Allah will bring us all back to him, and nothing we do or don't do will alter that. For that reason, we believe we are duty bound to help others, make the world a better place, etc., but not because we are accruing "credits" for heaven, but rather because it is the right thing to do.
So, when you first asked whether Allah may forgive a sin without atonement, I would have to answer it is irrelevant, because we will all return to him anyway.

Peace,

Seeker

**Who Am I?** · 06-13-2011

Originally Posted by brmm

Alhamdolillal Brother many times,
I had a feeling in my heart that you will convert sooner or later, but Alhamdolillah it was sooner

thats why I called you Pre-Brother.

I think you know that in Islam, when you convert you start a new age like a new born baby, so my advise for you from my own experience is that "Keep your past in the past behind your back, ask Allah Sobhanaho for forgiveness and don't let the people know much about it even the close ones"
Now u r 2 days old only

The people of Mecca and Madina always have the right way in Islam since prophet Mohammed PBUH had his message there, so be sure to follow their way.

If you have a question and you didn't believe any answer, read what the Quran says to you and follow it.

All of us have weaknesses and good time in our faith, so when you are in your good time, keep asking Allah sobhanaho to fix your belief on Islam and strength you in your weakness.

And if you need to enjoy a close connection with Allah sobhanaho, wake up after 3AM, and do prayers in a relax way with Dua (asking Allah for some thing good), inshallah you will test it, it has a very special feeling.

And you know as a Muslim, you should highly respect your parents and give everyone his right Muslim or non-Muslim.

Inshallah your next life will be much beautiful, and welcome with us as a brother, we are proud of you, and your value with what you do not with who you are.

BRMM

I appreciate the welcome, brother.

There is a lot that I still don't know about Islam, but I continue to learn every day, mashallah. I pray daily that Allah will guide my steps and make me a better person.

I hope one day that I can show my parents and family through my words and deeds that I am a better man so that they too will come to know Islam.

**Impey** · 06-17-2011

Originally Posted by Ramadhan

I thought it is holy spirit who is everywhere? What is the difference between holy spirit and the word of god? is bible the word of god?
How do people communicate with the word of god, and how do they know it is the word of god they communicate with?

Intrigued by your scepticism here so I know Muslim say Allah is ONE but what does that mean, one what, where is Allah, is he in one place or is he everywhere or perhaps something else? If he is in one place I can see that we might communicate with him but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means?

**MustafaMc** · 06-18-2011

My understanding is that Allah (swt) exists outside of our realm of existence which is that of space and time. We cannot comprehend Allah's (swt) existence, but He knows ours in every detail down to our most intimate thoughts. Allah (swt) is not 'here' at the exclusion of 'there' and neither is He everywhere at once within His creation except by His knowledge. I liken our existence to that of fish living in a fish tank with the tank walls made of one-way mirrors. All we are aware of is what is within our fish tank and know nothing of what is outside it because we can't sense beyond the mirror. Someone 'outside' the fish tank makes sure the aerator is working to add oxygen to the water, keeps adding water to the tank as it evaporates, and drops food in daily, but we know nothing of the source for these bountiful blessings. Perhaps, this sheds some light of understanding on our relationship to the Creator and Sustainer of our universe and Allah (swt) knows best.

**Amigo** · 06-18-2011

Originally Posted by Impey

but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means

I like this kind of reasoning. It shows a person who may be using the gift of thinking and caring about consistancy.

**Flame of Hope** · 06-18-2011

Originally Posted by Impey

Intrigued by your scepticism here so I know Muslim say Allah is ONE but what does that mean, one what, where is Allah, is he in one place or is he everywhere or perhaps something else? If he is in one place I can see that we might communicate with him but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means?

Allah means The God.

When we say Allah is One, we mean to say He is the ONLY GOD in existence. Singular.

There's only one way we can know about God's existence and that is through thought and reason.

We do not believe in the existence of The One God because some scripture declares it to be so.

We believe in His existence because there can be no law without a Law-Maker, no design without a Designer, no book without an Author and no creation without a Creator.

Since the existence of God is apparent to those who think and reflect, further reasoning and contemplation leads to the conclusion that the Lord of all the worlds could not have created the world for no reason. Centuries have elapsed since the creation of man. How likely is it that a God who has all power and wisdom would allow mankind in wander around in the state of darkness and not bring them into the light of Truth?

Answer: NOT LIKELY AT ALL.

An objective look at history informs us of the greatest man who ever lived... considered the most influential man in history by Michael Hart. The man was Prophet Muhammad (saws).

The world of the unseen is concealed and hidden from us and the only way we can have any knowledge of it is if God told us about it. God has told us about it through His messengers and Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last of them. He brought the final word of God, The Qur'an, which gives us all the information we need to know about the Hereafter.

Including the nature of God.

So where is Allah? Is He in one place or is He everywhere?

Allah has informed us that He is close to us. Closer than our jugular vein.

I think that is sufficient information for us to handle...... to know that Allah is very near to us.... and that He knows our each and every move..... and that He is The All-Aware, The All-Seeing, The All-Hearing and The All-Knowing.

He isn't limited to time and space. He is so close to us that to communicate with Him is easy. He hears your every word..... is aware of all that's in your heart and knows your deepest secrets.

This is Allah, the One - The Irresistible.

Alhamdulillahir rabbil al ameen!

p.s. By the way, we believe in the Qur'an not because of what it contains..... but because we believe in the man who brought it..... Prophet Muhammad (saws) who was renowned for his trustworthiness and exemplary character. The same cannot be said about the Bible.... a book written by many authors, some of them unknown.

**Ramadhan** · 06-18-2011

Originally Posted by Impey

Intrigued by your scepticism here so I know Muslim say Allah is ONE but what does that mean, one what, where is Allah, is he in one place or is he everywhere or perhaps something else? If he is in one place I can see that we might communicate with him but if he is everywhere I am lost as to what communication means?

You are responding to my questions about communicating with word of God, questions which actually stemmed from Amigo's series of statements about communicating with dead ancestors, holy spirit who told him directly knowledge about christianity, etc.
Now, since it seems you know much about christianity (is it only my imagination that you remind me of someone, or do christians write in similar style?), can you help amigo explain his belief of christianity?

I thought it is holy spirit who is everywhere? What is the difference between holy spirit and the word of god? is bible the word of god?
How do people communicate with the word of god, and how do they know it is the word of god they communicate with?

Now, about God is ONE, here's the qur'an surat which answers your question:
Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)
(QS. 112)

And just in case, you have forgotten, Jesus and your bible also strictly taught that God is ONE:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

**Impey** · 06-24-2011

Originally Posted by Riham

Allah means The God. When we say Allah is One, we mean to say He is the ONLY GOD in existence. Singular. There's only one way we can know about God's existence and that is through thought and reason. We do not believe in the existence of The One God because some scripture declares it to be so.

If I understand you the implication here is that we do not need scripture and the process called revelation is in fact a myth because if its anything at all it must be just thought and reasoning?

We believe in His existence because there can be no law without a Law-Maker, no design without a Designer, no book without an Author and no creation without a Creator. Since the existence of God is apparent to those who think and reflect, further reasoning and contemplation leads to the conclusion that the Lord of all the worlds could not have created the world for no reason. Centuries have elapsed since the creation of man. How likely is it that a God who has all power and wisdom would allow mankind in wander around in the state of darkness and not bring them into the light of Truth?

This sounds like a powerful argument but nevertheless it is an assumption on the existence of God. Its not centuries but as far as man goes we are talking of at least 15,000 years as far as we know and probably a long time before that. One must also say there are atheists who have considerable intellectual powers but do not come to the same conclusions so again you are making assumptions. Sadly, history is littered with argument for things that did not exist - for example there was phlogiston theory invented by Becher and it lasted for over 100 years but Boyle showed it was utter nonsense.

An objective look at history informs us of the greatest man who ever lived... considered the most influential man in history by Michael Hart. The man was Prophet Muhammad (saws).

True but this is Hart's view and I guess you like it but you would repudiate, and therefore be inconsistent, his other comment that he considered that the Qu'ran was written by Mohammed. One might also note that Hitler features in that list also.

The world of the unseen is concealed and hidden from us and the only way we can have any knowledge of it is if God told us about it. God has told us about it through His messengers and Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last of them. He brought the final word of God, The Qur'an, which gives us all the information we need to know about the Hereafter. Including the nature of God.

Well of course YOU can believe it gives ALL we need to know but why should I accept that?

So where is Allah? Is He in one place or is He everywhere? Allah has informed us that He is close to us. Closer than our jugular vein. I think that is sufficient information for us to handle...... to know that Allah is very near to us.... and that He knows our each and every move..... and that He is The All-Aware, The All-Seeing, The All-Hearing and The All-Knowing.

Is this the same as the Christian view that says that God through his spirit is IN us?

By the way, we believe in the Qur'an not because of what it contains..... but because we believe in the man who brought it..... Prophet Muhammad (saws) who was renowned for his trustworthiness and exemplary character. The same cannot be said about the Bible.... a book written by many authors, some of them unknown.

I think your inconsistency is showing again for two reasons - you assume that because a book does not have a known author it is of little value and secondly who is the author of the Qu'ran - was it Mohammed, if not then it to is a book with no known author also.

**Impey** · 06-24-2011

Originally Posted by Ramadhan

Now, since it seems you know much about christianity (is it only my imagination that you remind me of someone, or do christians write in similar style?), can you help amigo explain his belief of christianity? Now, about God is ONE, here's the qur'an surat which answers your question: Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)
(QS. 112)

And just in case, you have forgotten, Jesus and your bible also strictly taught that God is ONE:
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

I am puzzled by this - you quote from the Qu'ran and the Bible so can I assume you regard them both as authoritative?

**M.I.A.** · 06-26-2011

why can god not work with atonement and forgiveness?

**MustafaMc** · 06-26-2011

Originally Posted by M.I.A.

why can god not work with atonement and forgiveness?

Brother, I believe that Allah (swt) can and does allow for good deeds with pure intention to offset or atone for sins which is why we often follow up a bad deed with a good one. I also believe that He forgives sins with our mere pleading for it with Him as on the day of Arafat during Hajj.

The point that I was trying to make is the distinction between the 2 words. Many Christians believe that God MUST punish sin to satisfy His justice and that the only possible redemption available for ones salvation from the Hellfire is to accept the Ultimate Sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross as an atonement for the sins of Humanity. They believe that there is no other possible way for the 'debt of sin' to be paid or for the 'stain of sin' to be cleansed other than through the 'Blood of Jesus'. This is directly contrary to the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels (Lord's Prayer) and negates the ability of God to forgive sin without any payment or atonement or sacrifice. If Allah (swt) can forgive sin with an atoning sacrifice, then the Christian 'Plan of Salvation' is a false doctrine.

**Ramadhan** · 06-27-2011

Originally Posted by Impey

I am puzzled by this - you quote from the Qu'ran and the Bible so can I assume you regard them both as authoritative?

A first public warning to you:
a member who had previously been banned for severe violations of the forum rules, and re-registered under different name will be swiftly banned for repeating the same violations.

Don't think I don't know who you are, and you are posing questions you had asked many times and answered many times in the past.

**Eric H** · 06-27-2011

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

Scriptures should inspire us to do something; they should help us to put God first, our neighbour second and ourselves third, and steer away from the temptations of this world.
I try and search for the message from the death and resurrection of Jesus, and the way it inspires me to try and change myself, which is a struggle. The nearest analogy I can think of is this….
Suppose you had a kind and caring friend, whom you had known for a long time, suppose this friend rescued you from a burning building, but he then died from his injuries. You are not in a position to pay him back for saving your life, but in the fullness of time you might be inspired to carry on doing the same kind of good deeds that he did, by doing this you might keep his memory alive.
God could just say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, but it seems that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving me, with the sacrifice of his son.
The message is deep and profound, and it causes me to reflect, and to try and change my ways. It is not an easy burden for me to carry, knowing that my sins caused Jesus to die.
.
In the spirit of seeking forgiveness for my sins
Eric

**MustafaMc** · 06-28-2011

Originally Posted by Eric H

Greetings and peace be with you MustafaMc;

And the same to you, EricH.

Scriptures should inspire us to do something; they should help us to put God first, our neighbour second and ourselves third, and steer away from the temptations of this world.

I agree with this.

I try and search for the message from the death and resurrection of Jesus, and the way it inspires me to try and change myself, which is a struggle. The nearest analogy I can think of is this….
Suppose you had a kind and caring friend, whom you had known for a long time, suppose this friend rescued you from a burning building, but he then died from his injuries. You are not in a position to pay him back for saving your life, but in the fullness of time you might be inspired to carry on doing the same kind of good deeds that he did, by doing this you might keep his memory alive.

Once I could relate to this analogy of Jesus dying on the cross so that you might have Eternal Life, but that is an interesting twist that I haven't seen - 'doing the same kind of good deeds he did'. Perhaps, you can see a similarity with Muslims imitating the life of Prophet Muhammad (saaws).

God could just say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, but it seems that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving me, with the sacrifice of his son.

I am not sure that I understand 'that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving'. Is this easy way not consistent with the Lord's Prayer, the parable of the Prodigal Son, the parable of the king and his indebted servant, and what Jesus supposedly said on the cross, “Father forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”?

I understand you to say that acceptance of the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross is a necessary requirement for any chance of reconciliation between man and his Creator. You say that 'God could just say your sins are forgiven', but then you say He has gone beyond this forgiveness - I presume by providing the Ultimate Sacrifice so that an atonement was made for sin once and for all. The question is, "Is that atonement for our needs to feel a sense of gratitude (as you indicated and I once felt) and love toward God, or is the sacrifice a requirement for the satisfaction of God's apparent need for justice?"

The message is deep and profound, and it causes me to reflect, and to try and change my ways. It is not an easy burden for me to carry, knowing that my sins caused Jesus to die.
.
In the spirit of seeking forgiveness for my sins
Eric

...but if I understand correctly, your debt of sin has already been paid by Jesus' death and cleansed by his blood. If that is so, the atonement has already been paid and there is no need for forgiveness. From my perspective, Christians look backwards with confidence to Jesus' death on the cross as the source for their salvation, while Muslims look forward with hope in Allah's mercy for forgiveness on Judgment Day.

**Flame of Hope** · 06-28-2011

Originally Posted by Impey

I am puzzled by this - you quote from the Qu'ran and the Bible so can I assume you regard them both as authoritative?

Well, to be frank one can quote from any book or any magazine or article.... provided that the quote speaks of a universal truth. The Bible has plenty of stuff in it that is true..... and we have absolutely no hesitation in quoting those things. But this does not mean that we regard the Bible as authoritative.

There are universal truths expressed even in Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism and Sikhism. But that does not mean we regard those religions to be authoritative.

Gandhi was a Hindu. Yet he made many statements of universal truths which I would have no hesitation in quoting. For example:

"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong."

Now just because I quoted Gandhi who was a Hindu, it doesn't mean that I regard him as an authority to follow, along with Muhammad (saws).

Truth is the truth and it doesn't matter who utters it. It's self-evident. Whether it is in the Bible or Bhagwad Gita, it doesn't matter where it is! And it doesn't matter who says it either. 2 + 2 = 4. It doesn't matter which man tells you that the answer to 2 + 2 is 4.

And falsehood is falsehood too. It is also evident. But only to those who use their reason.

So while the Bible contains gems of universal truth within its pages, it also contains pure garbage.

We Muslims accept what is true............ and reject the garbage. And this is how God wants us to be. Not to accept everything..... but to use our minds to distinguish between truth and falsehood........ have the courage to accept the truth and also the courage to reject the falsehood.

I hope this makes things a little clearer to you Impey. You are a human being who can think. Use your thinking powers the way you should use them.... to save yourself from the Web of Lies woven by Satan.

Good luck!!

**Flame of Hope** · 06-28-2011

Originally Posted by Eric H

God could just say your sins are forgiven, and they would be forgiven, but it seems that God has gone beyond this easy way of forgiving me, with the sacrifice of his son.
The message is deep and profound, and it causes me to reflect, and to try and change my ways. It is not an easy burden for me to carry, knowing that my sins caused Jesus to die.

Greetings Eric H. How are you?

If you don't mind could you please help me understand how my sins caused Jesus to die?

Where in the Bible is this made clear?

Which passages in the Bible have convinced you so deeply that God had a son and that God sacrificed that son to pay for our sins?

**M.I.A.** · 07-02-2011

Originally Posted by MustafaMc

Brother, I believe that Allah (swt) can and does allow for good deeds with pure intention to offset or atone for sins which is why we often follow up a bad deed with a good one. I also believe that He forgives sins with our mere pleading for it with Him as on the day of Arafat during Hajj.

The point that I was trying to make is the distinction between the 2 words. Many Christians believe that God MUST punish sin to satisfy His justice and that the only possible redemption available for ones salvation from the Hellfire is to accept the Ultimate Sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross as an atonement for the sins of Humanity. They believe that there is no other possible way for the 'debt of sin' to be paid or for the 'stain of sin' to be cleansed other than through the 'Blood of Jesus'. This is directly contrary to the words of Jesus in the 4 gospels (Lord's Prayer) and negates the ability of God to forgive sin without any payment or atonement or sacrifice. If Allah (swt) can forgive sin with an atoning sacrifice, then the Christian 'Plan of Salvation' is a false doctrine.

lol i understood, but i said that just so you remain objective in your understanding.

the argument hinges on awareness,

if every blow is counter-matched, then this is the concept of atonement.

if a blow is not taken into account, then this is forgiveness.

the proof of allah swt is in that we dont know when we are hurting somebody(i would hope), but sometimes you learn to control your own speech and action.. within human limits of course..an awareness of freedom of choice...and its limits

its like a system that works on autopilot would be perfect, a closed system that is uniform in law and governance.
unfortunately we as individuals are often unpredictable...in our own eyes at least

i would think that allah swt made the system and the laws that govern it ie the universe and the natural order of things perfect.
i also think that we know that allah swt is beyond space, time and is all knowing.
so to me a system of atonement is a perfect system.

unfortunately it does not fit my concept of a most merciful creator, and allah swt's mercy is beyond my comprehension.
ie how mercy/forgiveness is expressed within a system that is perfect.

i guess its a circular argument for freedom of choice..again.

**MustafaMc** · 09-23-2012

Re: I attended a Catholic mass

It is quite interesting that the opening post by Daldianus on the Belief Corner forum exactly makes the same point I did on the OP of this thread.
http://www.beliefcorner.com/showthread.php/451-Atonement-vs-Forgiveness

Quoting Lilly, "Jesus is the sacrifice of atonement for the sins of the whole world. A sacrifice of atonement was needed in order to fulfill justice. Because God has fulfilled justice for the sins of the whole world any of us can come to him and receive forgiveness of sins when we repent and put our trust in him." ... "You mean couldn't God forgive man his wrongdoing without justice being fulfilled? God is just and can be nothing less. God is also merciful and wants to forgive mankind. So he made the way for man to be forgiven and for justice to be upheld. He did this through Christ."... "What conditions are met by man? The only conditions are those God has met due to the fact that he is just. To simply turn a blind eye to wrongdoing is evil. God provided a way for man to be forgiven and for his sins to be atoned for."

Lilly provided the most reasonable explanation and one that is consistent with what I remember from my early years as a Christian in that God is just and therefore requires that sin must be punished. Again, this illustrates the point between atonement and forgiveness for the Christian that God is incapable of forgiving sin with a clean wipe of the slate as this would be unjust and 'evil' according to Lilly. My understanding is that Jesus' death was the atoning sacrifice that fulfilled God's justice and opened the door for man to seek forgiveness through repentence. The concept of presenting a sacrifice or an atonement before sin can be forgiven is foreign to Islam; however, my understanding is that when we make du'a for forgiveness it is best for us to first praise Allah (swt) with His most beautiful names and attributes before we ask Him for forgiveness.

**MustafaMc** · 09-23-2012

Quoting a Christian friend from another communication, "So, atonement enables us to come before God in the first place. And secondly, forgiveness is available for us when we repent and ask (God) for it." This led me to another train of thought while reading Minhaj Al-Muslim. Although this quote is not consistent with my understanding of atonement from growing up as a Christian which is that of 'being washed in the blood of Jesus', it did bring to mind the Muslim concept of 'At-Tawassul'.

According to this book, Tawassul is the means by which "the Muslim draws closer to, and petitions Allah through righteous deeds and good sayings. He asks from Allah, petitioning Him by His Beautiful Names and His High Attributes ... He draws nearer to Allah by performing obligatory Salah, Zakah, Sawm, and Hajj and by performing voluntary deeds." The Qur'an conveys this same meaning in 5:45 ... But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself... and 5:95 ... by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent ...

An important distinct is that these deeds are by the person seeking nearness to Allah and not by the deeds of another as indicated by Minhaj Al-Muslim, "Allah the Almighty did not legislate for His servants to try to get closer to Him by deeds other than their own".

However, according to Sunnipath http://www.sunnipath.com/Library/Art...R00000010.aspx the accepting means of Tawassul are:

TAWASSUL through a living righteous person to Allah Most High, as in the hadith of the blind man with the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace);
The TAWASSUL of a living person to Allah Most High through his own good deeds, as in the hadith of the three people trapped in a cave by a great stone, a hadith related by Imam Bukhari in his "Sahih;"
The TAWASSUL of a person to Allah Most High through His (Allah's) entity (dhat), names, attributes, and so forth.

Point #1 is further expanded in the quote below from this link to include seeking nearness through Prophet Muhammad (saaws) or other righteous people who are not present or even who are dead.

"The Hanafi scholar, Muhammad Hamid says: As for calling upon (nida') the righteous (when they are physically absent, as in the words "O Muhammad" in the above hadiths), tawassul to Allah Most High through them is permissible, the supplication (du'a) being to Allah Most Glorious, and there is much evidence for its permissibility ... And the notion that tawassul is permissible only during the lifetime of the person through whom it is done but not after his death is unsupported by any viable foundation from Sacred Law."

Tawassul through others who are dead seems to approach shirk to me, but the point made above is the supplication is actually to Allah (swt) while the means of approach is through another who is more righteous albeit not present or even dead. I know that the Christian belief about Jesus being God Incarnate is disbelief in the Oneness of Allah (swt), but if they prayed to 'God the Father' with an ending of 'in the name of Jesus' would that not be similar to Tawassul explained above? What about the Christians who use Mary or their various saints as intercessors or intermediaries and a means of approach to God? Is that shirk or is it tawassul?

**Insaanah** · 09-23-2012

respected akhi,

With all due respect, I don't understand the connection between tawassul and atonement, or how the Christian concept of atonement would lead one to think of tawassul.

Christian atonement, as Christians see it, refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the death of Jesus (peace be upon him) by crucifixion, which made possible the reconciliation between God and creation, as the relationship between people and God was broken.

In Islam, there has never been a broken relationship between mankind and God, so tawassul doesn't fix anything or make it possible to stand before God. Nor does it atone for sins or have anything to do with sin.

Tawassul linguistically means to come closer to an objective and to gain proximity to a desired goal. In Islamic terms it signifies the act of trying to come closer to Allah through through manners that have been prescribed in the Qur'an and Sunnah. In other words, it is a means of seeking nearness to Allah.

When used in the context of du'aa, it then takes on a more specific meaning. It then refers to seeking a means of having one's du'aa accepted, or increasing the chances of one's du'aa being accepted.

There are a number of ways that have been prescribed Islamically, e.g:

By asking through Allah's names and attributes, e.g. "I ask You by virtue of the fact that none has the right to be worshipped except You, and that You are the only one to hear du'aas, that You... xyz"
By mentioning Allah's favours to you
By mentioning the dire state one is in.
By mentioning the good deeds one has done.
By mentioning the good effect of the du'aa one hopes for e.g. increase me in knowledge so that I can teach others about Islam.
By asking a righteous living person to make du'aa.

But it is not the case that we these somehow atone for something or enable us to stand before God or repair a broken relationship. These just increase the chance of our du'aa being accepted.

Tawassul through the Prophet

is divided into three categories:
By mentioning one's love for the Prophet

. This is allowed, as it comes under tawassul through mentioning one's good deeds.
Through the Prophet's

du'aa while he was alive. This comes under asking a righteous living person to make du'aa.
Through the Prophet

after his death. This is not allowed, at all.
Through the Prophet's

status. There is nothing in the Qur'an or authentic ahadeeth sanctioning this, nor did any of the first three generations of Islam practice this or say it was acceptable, and it should not be done, regardless of whom among later scholars sanctioned it.

Also, sunnipath isn't a reliable source of knowledge on particular matters of aqeedah, as it is not permissible to make tawassul through a dead person, at all, be that person Muhammad

, Mary, Ibrahim

or anyone else. This borders on shirk, as you correctly noted. Sunnipath are known for their views that are not in accordance with the mainstream on such matters, in particular the author of that article you linked to is also known for views not in accordance with the majority.

The point made above is the supplication is actually to Allah (swt) while the means of approach is through another who is more righteous albeit not present or even dead

This is not a valid argument. Someone posted a video here where a scholar of the same views as sunnipath declared that one could even make du'aa to Rasoolullah

as long you kept in mind that the one granting the du'aa is Allah!

When you pray through a dead person, you are attributing to them a power which they don't have, you are using them as an intermediary between yourself and God, and your du'aa is no longer exclusively to Allah alone. The argument such people use is as per the quote above. Also, it is important to note that du'aa is a form or worship, so when you make du'aa through a dead person, you are in effect associating that person in the worship of your Lord. The implications of this are very clear, dangerous and frightening, and such practices should be stayed away from, because they insiduously lead one towards the biggest sin of all, while the person thinks that he/she is doing something praiseworthy, and Satan has no better trick then to convince one of that.

What I wrote on Tawassul in du'aa comes from this very good book which I highly recommend, called Du'a, Weapon of the Believer; A treatise on the status and etiquette of du'a in Islam, by Aby Ammaar Yasir Qadhi. It is all based on Qur'an and strong authentic ahadeeth used and applied in their correct contexts, and covers pretty much everything about Du'a:

http://kalamullah.com/Books/Dua%20Th...20Believer.pdf

Tawassul starts on book page 183, Adobe page 182, though have a look at the contents to get a feel for all the different things it covers.

And Allah knows best, and may He save us from approaching all misguidance and from deviating off the straight path, ameen.